Grand Central Euston - Blackpool?

[Ticket Man]

I remember hearing a few months back about a rumour flying around that GC were going to operate services out of Euston to Blackpool.
Is this the case and if so when will services be expected to commence?

 

[Wath Yard]

The ORR refused permission - abstraction of revenue from VWC being given as the reason.

 

[Ticket Man]

The ORR refused permission - abstraction of revenue from VWC being given as the reason.

well thats a shame, I was quite looking forward to rubbing shoulders with GC at euston

 

[Aictos]

The ORR refused permission - abstraction of revenue from VWC being given as the reason.

Wasn't that the reason GNER gave as well? Seems daft that the ORR refused permission as it's 4 trains a day vs the number of services available from Virgin which is a lot higher.

The sooner that clause expires in December the better, we can all but hope Virgins's successor doesn't request it to continue!

 

[185]

The ORR refused permision without good reason.

Branson 'donating' yachts again? I want one

 

[Aictos]

The ORR refused permision without good reason.

Branson 'donating' yachts again? I want one

I rather have one of his 390s though,

 

[northwichcat]

Alliance Rail t/a GNWR have an active application in currently for Cumbria/Lancashire/West Yorks to Euston services proposing using Polaris stock. It's a revised application after their original one was rejected.

I seem to remember First Group kicking up a big fuss in response to the previous Grand Central and Alliance applications stating the rolling stock plans aren't clear enough, even though both applications stated what rolling stock they planned to use. Maybe they suspected they may change the proposals and hope to take on the 180s.

 

[Yew]

The ORR refused permission - abstraction of revenue from VWC being given as the reason.

I thought the whole point of privatisation was competition? Or are they worried that GC wouldnt get many pax, and rely of ORCATS money?

 

[WestCoast]

I thought the whole point of privatisation was competition? Or are they worried that GC wouldnt get many pax, and rely of ORCATS money?

I think there were several issues cited:

-Lack of 110mph paths on the WCML (I think GC were proposing to use 67+Mark 3, at least initially, which of course doesn't tilt!)
-ORCATS raid on the Preston - London flow (and nearby stations).

A London Midland Birmingham to Preston stopper was also refused, paths being cited as the reason.

Personally, I think LMs service may well have been the more useful! It would have provided a decent local service on the WCML past Crewe.

You can read the what the ORR concluded in full in this report: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/wcml-orr-letter-020311.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

A London Midland Birmingham to Preston stopper was also refused, paths being cited as the reason.

Personally, I think LMs service may well have been the more useful! It would have provided a decent local service on the WCML past Crewe.

The main problem with the LM one was that it would mean the timings of other services would need to change to fit it in, then when you move one service you finish up moving a lot. It is, however, something that Network Rail are keen on and they've recommended it should be implemented at the next WCML recast.

 

[The Planner]

I think there were several issues cited:

-Lack of 110mph paths on the WCML (I think GC were proposing to use 67+Mark 3, at least initially, which of course doesn't tilt!)

The paths were fine and worked.

 

[WestCoast]

The paths were fine and worked.

Yes, sorry, had another look over the report - someone in it mentioned 'capacity concerns using 110mph stock' (presumably for future service development), but the paths obviously must have been fine.

 

[tbtc]

I thought the whole point of privatisation was competition?

I guess the question is whether people want long franchises which given enough time/stability for a TOC to plan improvements, arrange services/stock, or to have competing services?

The next franchise holder on the WCML will be making long term plans, which would be messed up if another company got a share of a busy market like London - Preston.

 

[northwichcat]

The next franchise holder on the WCML will be making long term plans, which would be messed up if another company got a share of a busy market like London - Preston.

I'm not sure Preston-London is a busy market compared to the other WCML flows and the fact that Preston only has 1tph to London doesn't seem to fit in with it being a key market for the WCML franchise.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm not sure Preston-London is a busy market compared to the other WCML flows and the fact that Preston only has 1tph to London doesn't seem to fit in with it being a key market for the WCML franchise.

It can be a very busy flow at times. 1tph doesn't do it much justice, often Wigan and Warrington alone could fill out a Euston Voyager, especially when their respective sports teams are playing down there.

 

[WestCoast]

It can be a very busy flow at times. 1tph doesn't do it much justice, often Wigan and Warrington alone could fill out a Euston Voyager, especially when their respective sports teams are playing down there.

I agree completely. Many of the Glasgow - London services once they have picked up traffic from Preston are much busier than the Manchester trains are off-peak!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure Preston-London is a busy market compared to the other WCML flows and the fact that Preston only has 1tph to London doesn't seem to fit in with it being a key market for the WCML franchise.

Liverpool has only 1tph and it's not seen as being 'secondary'.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree completely. Many of the Glasgow - London services once they have picked up traffic from Preston are much busier than the Manchester trains are off-peak!

Liverpool has only 1tph and it's not seen as being 'secondary'.

If you have 15 passengers in standard class then it's busier than some of the off-peak Manchester services!

I was really getting at a number of the passengers who board and alight Virgin services at Preston aren't going to London, with there being some for Wigan and others for Warrington and some from both of those stations boarding Virgin services for places such as Lancaster and Carlisle.

 

[Wath Yard]

The next franchise holder on the WCML will be making long term plans, which would be messed up if another company got a share of a busy market like London - Preston.

I'm not sure that is the case. Had GC or Alliance been given the go-ahead the shortlisted companies would have known exactly what competition they faced and tailored their bids accordingly.

However, I don't know whether the ORR got some flak for their decision or not, but they appear to have had a change of heart since the decision. They put out a consultation late last year regarding Open Access competition in which they gave a strong indication that they will look more favourably on future applications. Therefore, if they do permit future OA competition on the WCML that could cause problems for the next franchise holder if they tailored their premiums round having the line to themselves.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure that is the case. Had GC or Alliance been given the go-ahead the shortlisted companies would have known exactly what competition they faced and tailored their bids accordingly

...but (even if they know what paths are allocated today) they wouldn't know what paths may be allocated to OA services over the next decade or two.That's what I'm getting at.

You're asking a company to make a commitment to a bid lasting a generation, asking them to specify what investment there will be in additional trains/ additional services, without knowing whether some of these flows will be diluted (in the way that GC took a share of the London - York market a few years ago).

Its not like running buses, where there's no commitment to maintain minimum service levels for twenty years, and no restrictions on "pathing" services".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure Preston-London is a busy market compared to the other WCML flows and the fact that Preston only has 1tph to London doesn't seem to fit in with it being a key market for the WCML franchise.

Not the busiest, but still a busy one. It gets more London services than Glasgow after all. Plus any OA service will either stop at more WCML stations further south (either eating into ORCATS money or abstracting existing passengers).

Would you make a competitively priced bid to last a decade or two (with the danger that your sums could be compromised by seeing some of your flows to another company)?

 

[GNERman]

Take a look at my thread here, which was posted at the time the proposal wa submitted, should answer any questions...