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Grand Central Discussion

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Metroland

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But let’s go back to the basis of the premise of rail privatisation. The concept was TOCs were going to be fairly temporary and the industry was going to move to open access and compete for passengers. It was all going to be a market economists dream, prices would fall, and rail travel would be so cheap, it would be silly not to use it. After all, in China and India it is the transport of choice, with car ownership at less than 20 per 1000 people, compared to around 300 per 1000 in Western Europe and around 460 in the US. Really because it is the cheap option!

What we have witnessed, is a complete failure to introduce any sort of competition, a new barricade of H&S law and red tape, and swathes of over management inside and outside the industry, which makes open access and new lines for Passenger operators a relative dream.

In the era of high fuel prices and environmental awareness, the industry should be in a new golden age, yet is more subsidised than ever. Conversely in the US, railroads like Union Pacific have seen a 3 fold rise in their share price since 2003 and are expanding at a pace faster than at any other time in 100 years – all with private money.

Not only privatisation failed to lower unit costs, if GC fails, it may well prove once and for all the model was flawed, and should have been vertical integration or left as it was. Railways complete between lines or with other forms of transport, not with rival train operators because of the nature of the system. It is idiocy to presume otherwise.
 
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Sir_Clagalot

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I think that BR could have been left alone, but to allow Open Access Operators, with the Operators paying access charges to BR, these charges being set by a regulator.
Would have been far fairer and simpler. After all, the travelling public still think that we all work for the same company, regardless of uniform colours!!
 

yorkie

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Thats interesting as I have many a time excessed up (at a station before travel) a Silverlink only CDR to Brum to any permitted (Virgin) validity at just the price difference.
Well, the system won't stop them. But they are not meant to do that. A very rare case of the railways actually doing morally the right thing although it's not the 'correct' thing to do!
 

Donny Dave

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Right then. I'v moved the GC vs NXEC 'debate' into a thread of it's own so that updates about GC can be posted in here again.
 

yorkie

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The 1444 departure from York to Sunderland was very busy yesterday. It was wedged at York. Ignoring the number of people getting off at Thirsk and Northallerton, around a dozen got off at Eaglescliffe, about 20 got off at Hartlepool and 49 were off at Sunderland.

I didn't see any board at Eaglescliffe and only about 3 joined at Hartlepool, so that means there were nearly 80 people on board before Eaglescliffe - all beyond the main line and all unable to get direct services from York using any other operator.

Yes, some of those included in the count would be 'bashers', but only a small proportion. Many enthusiasts just did short leaps to Thirsk or Northallerton, where the front vestibule went from being wedged to empty.

I think this demonstrates that GC are growing the market.
 

Spaceflower

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The 1444 departure from York to Sunderland was very busy yesterday. It was wedged at York. Ignoring the number of people getting off at Thirsk and Northallerton, around a dozen got off at Eaglescliffe, about 20 got off at Hartlepool and 49 were off at Sunderland.

I didn't see any board at Eaglescliffe and only about 3 joined at Hartlepool, so that means there were nearly 80 people on board before Eaglescliffe - all beyond the main line and all unable to get direct services from York using any other operator.

Yes, some of those included in the count would be 'bashers', but only a small proportion. Many enthusiasts just did short leaps to Thirsk or Northallerton, where the front vestibule went from being wedged to empty.

I think this demonstrates that GC are growing the market.

like hell it does. them people could have previously boarded trains at newcastle, durham, darlington. i live midway between sunderland and hartlepool and when any1 i know gets a train, its from durham. We are NXEC's express market. GC is poaching.
 

Royston Vasey

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like hell it does. them people could have previously boarded trains at newcastle, durham, darlington. i live midway between sunderland and hartlepool and when any1 i know gets a train, its from durham. We are NXEC's express market. GC is poaching.

Entirely disgree with this. While people in that area may well currently see NXEC as a more reliable and more known option (that includes myself) and therefore go to Durham for NXEC, having option to do it from your home town or close to it is certainly a big differentiator, i.e. a new market, and also - potentially - a better option for an existing market that you refer to.

GC are not poaching, they are providing a different option. If there isn't enough demand or they do not market or provide the service well enough (and they are currently doing neither) it may fail. This is how a free market works! Obviously it's harder to justify if talking about York to London on its own.

Being from Sunderland but living in North Herts, to take a trip home I would previously have had to change at Stevenage and often Doncaster/Peterborough, although at some times of day a through train, followed by Metro from Newcastle to Sunderland or a bus/lift from Durham to Sunderland. Result: 3 changes. Taking GC from Kings Cross I can do this with one change and I'm at my destination directly.

No one is saying that appreciably more people will decide to visit London from the North East because of GC (or the North East from London for that matter), so in that way those people are not a new market, but this is a case of giving people options and in that sense, it is a new market. Why should an inconvenient service maintain a monopoly? Your point seems to be that Newcastle/Durham/Darlington are very convenient for people from the Sunderland/Durham Coast/Teesside and I entirely disagree with this.

People do use Newcastle/Durham/Darlington as you say, because that's the best current option, but there is no reason it should always be thus...
 

Max

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like hell it does. them people could have previously boarded trains at newcastle, durham, darlington. i live midway between sunderland and hartlepool and when any1 i know gets a train, its from durham. We are NXEC's express market. GC is poaching.

Why are you so entirely anti-GC? Of course they aren't poaching! They're providing a brand new service, and much better serving the local community and the market as a whole. With rising motoring costs, why should people be forced to drive to Durham and park their car there (probably at an extortianate cost) when they could potentially have the option of a direct fast service to Thirsk or York (or indeed King's Cross). You seem to miss the point that faffing about driving somewhere to catch a train or changing (potentially twice or three times for Hartlepool-KGX passengers) actually puts many people off. The Hull-London market has grown massively thanks to Hull Trains, simply because they provide a faster, direct service with good customer service at its heart. And this is exactly what GC are trying to do.
 

Tin Miner

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With rising motoring costs, why should people be forced to drive to Durham and park their car there (probably at an extortianate cost) when they could potentially have the option of a direct fast service to Thirsk or York (or indeed King's Cross). You seem to miss the point that faffing about driving somewhere to catch a train or changing (potentially twice or three times for Hartlepool-KGX passengers) actually puts many people off. The Hull-London market has grown massively thanks to Hull Trains, simply because they provide a faster, direct service with good customer service at its heart. And this is exactly what GC are trying to do.

There is an interesting issue at stake for Labour if GC does fail. There is the possibility that people in Hartlepool and Sunderland might rather like the idea of direct services to London. Certainly on a couple of trips I made before the fares became unattractive, I heard people commenting that the reason they were using the train was that they didn't have to change.

If GC fails there will be a lot of political disquiet about Sunderland and Hartlepool briefly getting direct trains to London, and then losing them again... but this only becomes an issue if GC ever gets it's act together on reliability.

The problem for Labour is that in today's climate Hartlepool is now verging on being a marginal seat, and Sunderland South is by no means safe!
 

Spaceflower

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I'm not anti-GC at all. I'm glad to see london trains running down the coast serving Hartlepool and Sunderland. Hopefully Seaham and Peterlee may follow soon. I think its been a long time coming.

However, currently, I dont think GC will be generating much extra business. just my opinion though. I'm also still wrangling with the idea of new markets and franchises and open access operators, so on. But for yorkie to use the fact that passengers were using the service to alight at these towns as evidence of new growth is b*ll****. How do you come to that conclusion when you have no idea of their ultimate destination or how they made similar journeys in the past. get your clipboard and go and ask them...then you may have something resembling evidence.
 
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Max

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But for yorkie to use the fact that passengers were using the service to alight at these towns as evidence of new growth is b*ll****. How do you come to that conclusion when you have no idea of their ultimate destination or how they made similar journeys in the past. get your clipboard and go and ask them...then you may have something resembling evidence.

I'd invite you to do the same. Oh, and putting my mod. cap on, please refrain from swearing.
 

Sir_Clagalot

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I've been on many runs out of KGX at 1650 where we have had 20-30 people get off at every station. It can be the same going towards London in the morning, especially at the start of the week. Don't be so fast in shooting Yorkie down. If on the odd occasion that the Senior has to do tickets solo due to the Conductor helping out in FC, it is not unknown to still be doing tickets at Donny, and Ive heard of occasions where they were still being done on the approach to York.
Good for business but you're left gasping for a brew!
 

djw1981

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Do you not have to wait for your PNB for that :)

I guess that it is inevitable that the 0646 down and 1650 return would be the busiest as they cater for Commuter traffic into London & York.
 

Spaceflower

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I'd invite you to do the same.

wasn't talking to you. since when did balloons become a swear word?

Don't be so fast in shooting Yorkie down.

I'm not. It is impossible to draw any conclusion over the question of new growth or not from that observation. Hell, it might well be, but thats not going to prove it either way. Like I said, market research, surveys, total ticket sales of both operators, perhaps. Whose to say them 40 passengers didnt travel via Durham even last week? you cant.
 
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theblackwatch

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It is impossible to draw any conclusion over the question of new growth or not from that observation.

Yet only a few hours ago, you had drawn conclusions yourself! Presumably this can only be done when it suits? :???:
 

Spaceflower

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No, I only ever had an opinion. opinions can be formed when it suits. It suited.

Using passenger numbers alone in that way as proof of market creation, is not proof, although I respect all your opinions.
 

mealybar

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I'm not sure I fully grasp all this talk of revenue abstraction and GC on 'raids' of other peoples money. The way I see it, if GC provide x number of seats between two stations they fully deserve a proportion of the money. I don't see the issue that GC are 'taking' NXEC, TPE or Northerns passengers, they are providing additional capacity and then it is the publics choice which opperator they use. If you used to travel to Durham, but now its more convenient to use Sunderland - that's great because several people who didnt use Durham (they used their car or didnt travel) may be convinced to use Sunderland too.

If the GC shuttle service is opperating full or nearly full, what more can GC do? So what if everyone used to use Northern and change at Thornaby. A well used GC service can only indicate that this is the service that people want, whether they abstracted from other TOCs is irrellevent. Surely?
 

Sir_Clagalot

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mealybar: exactly. On many occasion I have had pssengers say to me 'we love the service', usually followed by 'not the reliability'! All this supposition about the future of GC does not help us get through this!
GC caried out market research before submitting its plans... which showed there IS a market for direct trains between the Durham Coast towns and the Capital. This is borne out on many mornings where the train can be 2/3rds- 3/4 full before it reaches York. The same can be said leaving York for Sunderland on an evening, the train can still be 2/3rds - 3/4 full after York. Believe me, Ive seen it!
 
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mealybar: exactly. On many occasion I have had pssengers say to me 'we love the service', usually followed by 'not the reliability'! All this supposition about the future of GC does not help us get through this!
GC caried out market research before submitting its plans... which showed there IS a market for direct trains between the Durham Coast towns and the Capital. This is borne out on many mornings where the train can be 2/3rds- 3/4 full before it reaches York. The same can be said leaving York for Sunderland on an evening, the train can still be 2/3rds - 3/4 full after York. Believe me, Ive seen it!

If it is about providing direct trains between the Durham Coast towns and the Capital then NEXEC could argue that GC should not "pick up" at York!
 

Sir_Clagalot

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To be really pedantic... GC is 'Providing a Direct Train service from the Durham Coast and North Yorkshire Towns and Cities to The Capital'.
 

1D53

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0646 cancelled throughout and 1650 already showing as Cancelled.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

yorkie

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If it is about providing direct trains between the Durham Coast towns and the Capital then NEXEC could argue that GC should not "pick up" at York!
They did! (Surely you should know this? ;))

They lost.

HT have also increased their calling pattern, now the only stop they do not call at is Newark.

Sorry but you have to accept the ORR's decision.
 

parker

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0646 cancelled throughout and 1650 already showing as Cancelled.
Posted via Mobile Device

1416 York - KSX ran today about 30 mins late
1650 KSX - Sun also running a little late....
:grin:
 

1D53

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1650 was 30 down but should have reported at Newark nearly 10 mins ago!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
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