Grand Central Discussion

[spoony]

I can't see GC, FHT and WSMR "benefiting" from the impending recession at all, its the last thing these operators need. How can TOC's prices be off putting as djw1981 has said £20 Glasgow to London, they just cannot compete with these prices for much longer. NXEC are going to do an offer costing just £5 to go anywhere in the new year!

Which I expect will be extremely limited.

 

[furryfeet]

the high walk on fares may put people off using rail.
the open access operators could use the recession to say, have their own walk on fares at cheaper rates than the subsidised TOC's, to get business that they may not otherwise have.

Perhaps someone on these forums who is in the know could enlighten us as to any such forthcoming offers to tempt us out of our cars.

We will wait and see !

 

[Techniquest]

You say that but i just booked travel (with RC) from Glasgow for a weekend in London for £20. that's traveling NX one way and VWC the other. Had I booked when I first saw the prices, but before my plans were certain, I could have done Virgin return for £7.90 each way.

That plus staying at a friends or even a travelodge gives a weekend for under £100

Those Virgin fares are amazingly cheap, is that with a railcard? I've booked fares at that price from Hereford to Carlisle and back for £7.90 each way before now, which I consider to be a good deal. Glasgow to London for £7.90 is very good value!

 

[91101]

I can't see GC, FHT and WSMR "benefiting" from the impending recession at all, its the last thing these operators need. How can TOC's prices be off putting as djw1981 has said £20 Glasgow to London, they just cannot compete with these prices for much longer. NXEC are going to do an offer costing just £5 to go anywhere in the new year!

The simple fact of the matter is that djw1981's £20 is NOT NXEC or Virgin's bread and butter, its an extra bit of revenue to fill an empty seat. Their bread and butter is the higher end business market, most of whome are now looking to reduce their own overheads in relation to travel, and will find smaller companies, without onerous payments to the government, without service level committments, who are more flexible, have lower operating costs, and therefore lower prices.

 

[paul1609]

The simple fact of the matter is that djw1981's £20 is NOT NXEC or Virgin's bread and butter, its an extra bit of revenue to fill an empty seat. Their bread and butter is the higher end business market, most of whome are now looking to reduce their own overheads in relation to travel, and will find smaller companies, without onerous payments to the government, without service level committments, who are more flexible, have lower operating costs, and therefore lower prices.

Yeah i agree but as far as I can see both GC and WSMRs business case only makes sense if they extract a percentage of that revenue in the form of an Orcats raid on the main TOCs business market flows. Id guess that the recession wont be in any railway companies favour but some of the TOCs with high premia will either go to the wall or be bailed out by the government. I'm hearing reports that several TOCs in the former NSE area are now experiencing ticket incomes that are falling by 7 to 8% in the last month.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

The argument is that if someone needs to travel York-London (or vice-versa) at short notice, then they are very unlikely to find cheap tickets, unless they travel GC and buy on board, anyone coming out of London at 8am ish and paying full whack for an Any Permitted Std Single is mad when for a third of it they can travel GC!
WSMR fares are probably something similar compared with the competition.

 

[djw1981]

The simple fact of the matter is that djw1981's £20 is NOT NXEC or Virgin's bread and butter, its an extra bit of revenue to fill an empty seat. Their bread and butter is the higher end business market, most of whome are now looking to reduce their own overheads in relation to travel, and will find smaller companies, without onerous payments to the government, without service level committments, who are more flexible, have lower operating costs, and therefore lower prices.

Yeah but If you book far in advance, and are willing to accept the restrictions then you take the risk, people are used to doing that with budget airlines. Had GC had a special advance fare available, I may have jumped and gone down the ECML, changing at York or Newcastle-Sunderland. As it is, that may have to wait until i have more money.

 

[mealybar]

Just had a bit of news that will see me needing to travel Hartlepool - Kings Cross in a couple of weeks. Need to get the Saturday morning, and probably the midday on Sunday home.

What I still dont understand is when peak and off-peak come into force. Would the Saturday morning be a peak fare? Nothing to be found on the GC website, but according to National Express booking engine all weekend fares are off-peak.

Are the prices on the National Express site correct now too?

 

[spoony]

Just had a bit of news that will see me needing to travel Hartlepool - Kings Cross in a couple of weeks. Need to get the Saturday morning, and probably the midday on Sunday home.

What I still dont understand is when peak and off-peak come into force. Would the Saturday morning be a peak fare? Nothing to be found on the GC website, but according to National Express booking engine all weekend fares are off-peak.

Are the prices on the National Express site correct now too?

Weekends are always off peak no matter what time arent they?

 

[91101]

That's correct.

Paul1609,in the economic conditions that GC and WSMR expected to trade under, yes, would have seen then essentially leeching off ORCATS while stimulating some new travel, however, what I feel they now represent, in a much more challenging ecconomic market place is a much lower priced competitor that the business market will switch to to avoid the exhorbitant walk up prices that the franchised operators impose upon them.

I will cite two examples from Monday morning's 1A60. Guy gets on at Eaglescliffe but needs to go back to Darlington, balks at price of the full SOR and opts for a GC return with a ticket from Northallerton-Darlo. Totally changed plans for his return on the basis of cost - paying on a company credit card!
Same situation at York, guy got on, no ticket, wanted a return, again, all on expenses choose the GC option despite an extra hour in London.
GC will get a lot more revenue from these tickets than they ever would out of ORCATS.

 

[spoony]

That's correct.

Paul1609,in the economic conditions that GC and WSMR expected to trade under, yes, would have seen then essentially leeching off ORCATS while stimulating some new travel, however, what I feel they now represent, in a much more challenging ecconomic market place is a much lower priced competitor that the business market will switch to to avoid the exhorbitant walk up prices that the franchised operators impose upon them.

I will cite two examples from Monday morning's 1A60. Guy gets on at Eaglescliffe but needs to go back to Darlington, balks at price of the full SOR and opts for a GC return with a ticket from Northallerton-Darlo. Totally changed plans for his return on the basis of cost - paying on a company credit card!
Same situation at York, guy got on, no ticket, wanted a return, again, all on expenses choose the GC option despite an extra hour in London.
GC will get a lot more revenue from these tickets than they ever would out of ORCATS.

Not to mention GCs trains are much nicer to travel on.

 

[andylloyd]

1A60 was spot on this afternoon from Northallerton.
43080 was screaming like a banshee
Well done GC folks for a nice trip to Sunderland....

 

[s'land]

I thought that grand central were going to run a 4th daily return SLD-KXC service, what happened to this plan ?

might it happen in may now

 

[andylloyd]

I thought that grand central were going to run a 4th daily return SLD-KXC service, what happened to this plan ?

might it happen in may now

At this current time they have only got two complete sets in operation.
I believe that they are awaiting delivery of some carriages still to make a 3rd set.

If i'm wrong then someone please correct me

 

[schmoo_smith]

At this current time they have only got two complete sets in operation.
I believe that they are awaiting delivery of some carriages still to make a 3rd set.

If i'm wrong then someone please correct me

If this is indeed the case I cannot believe after all this time they still only have two full sets in operation, whats going on?

 

[andylloyd]

If this is indeed the case I cannot believe after all this time they still only have two full sets in operation, whats going on?

I'm sure that it was down to delay of the carriages being refurbed......
Hopefully one of our friendly resident GC folk can fill us in

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Hit the nail on the head there andylloyd, though we cant say any more than that! The 4th path decision has been deferred (again) until January

 

[andylloyd]

Hit the nail on the head there andylloyd, though we cant say any more than that! The 4th path decision has been deferred (again) until January

Cheers
Seems to me that the DfT and NR need their heads banging together....
After sampling a great trip on tuesday just gone from Northallerton-Sunderland I tend to wonder what is happening in their warped minds

Secondly another one for you Sir Clag
Saw 43123+43065 leave Northallerton at about 10.30 yesterday bound for Sunderland.
Is 43123 very well or not? Was not even operating on departure from NTR yesterday but 065 was screaming like a banshee

Cheers
Andy

 

[devon_metro]

I'm sure that it was down to delay of the carriages being refurbed......
Hopefully one of our friendly resident GC folk can fill us in

Also explains the delay to WSMRs stock.

 

[s'land]

Hit the nail on the head there andylloyd, though we cant say any more than that! The 4th path decision has been deferred (again) until January

If the 4th path was approved what rolling stock would GC use ?

would GC be allowed to run it with 3 HST, sets because of not having any spare sets in case of breakdowns. Could 1 or 2 Class 180's be the answer if any are available.

 

[andylloyd]

If the 4th path was approved what rolling stock would GC use ?

would GC be allowed to run it with 3 HST, sets because of not having any spare sets in case of breakdowns. Could 1 or 2 Class 180's be the answer if any are available.

Early from the 'off-set; there were plans to run 180's but then this hit a snag...
Am I barking up the wrong tree at all?

Cheers
Andy

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

43123 was probably shut down as the driver wanted to shut it down, the lead PC needs to be shut down before sunderland anyway, and northallerton is before sunderland...

 

[andylloyd]

43123 was probably shut down as the driver wanted to shut it down, the lead PC needs to be shut down before sunderland anyway, and northallerton is before sunderland...

Cheers,
it just seemed a bit early was all (have witnessed several workings from NTR with the front screaming like a banshee)

Also nice to see that all is well with 43123 as witnessed at Newcastle this afternoon on the ECS

 

[Pumbaa]

43123 was probably shut down as the driver wanted to shut it down, the lead PC needs to be shut down before sunderland anyway, and northallerton is before sunderland...

Sorry - why? Seems kinda crazy...

 

[AlexS]

I believe they set the fire alarms off at Sunderland otherwise.

 

[Techniquest]

But all the way back at Northallerton?! That's a helluva long way from Sunderland!

 

[andylloyd]

But all the way back at Northallerton?! That's a helluva long way from Sunderland!

Exactly what I was thinking.
Maybes short of coolant???

 

[s'land]

43123 was probably shut down as the driver wanted to shut it down, the lead PC needs to be shut down before sunderland anyway, and northallerton is before sunderland...

something must have been up ! it doesn't seem to make any sense shutting it down as far away as northallerton, but then again what would I know ?

 

[paul1609]

I think that a single power car is probably easily capable of keeping time beyond northallerton given the low line limit 75? and GCs short formations. if so the driver is doing gc a favour saving costs?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . and a few hours after andylloyd saw one set running on one PC (on Sat), I saw the other set on its way to Sunderland from Heaton - with just the rear PC on power. I'm sure it really doesn't need any more cylinders pounding and clagging up n down just to push a few coaches along at 30-40 mph!