Grand Central cancellations

[Andyh82]

Grand Central seem to have cancelled all their Bradford services in and out of London Kings Cross today, and have also cancelled one of their Sunderland services.

This is on top of frequent cancellations over recent days.

They are blaming ‘more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time’, but it must be quite a number of trains out of use to cause such an extreme situation.

The Bradford services are running as shuttles to Doncaster, with passengers forced to use a specified VTEC service thereafter, although one service was cancelled entirely with passengers told to use VTEC to Leeds and then strike hit Northern from Leeds to their usual destination.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess the curse of the 180s hits them as well as Hull Trains

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess the curse of the 180s hits them as well as Hull Trains

They are utter garbage, a complete and utter dud of a train, which is a big shame given how right they got the seating (and only the seating). Have GC considered or placed an order for new rolling stock?

 

[PeterY]

That sounds a bit worrying, I plan to use their service in April. The only way I can get an early start to York, with an ALR.

 

[Starmill]

They are utter garbage, a complete and utter dud of a train, which is a big shame given how right they got the seating (and only the seating). Have GC considered or placed an order for new rolling stock?

It does not seem likely that they will given they have put a lot of effort into getting the entire fleet of 180s. They have stated that they will look to take on the Hull Trains ones next year, so they have all 14.

In 3 or so years, with 80x stock and 390 equivalent (or better) performance from First East Coast, the 180s will be the slowest trains on the route. Slow enough that they couldn't keep a standard 2 hourly slot with another TOC having the one every other hour.

 

[Crossover]

I was watching some of the progress on Facebook earlier - they were advising for a while that the 1448 Kings Cross to Bradford was cancelled and that passengers should forward on the 1603 to Bradford. Under that it said that the 1603 was cancelled and that passengers should forward on the 1650 Sunderland as far as Doncaster. So even their advice is utter garbage!

 

[BestWestern]

I have to say, given the ongoing dramas with GC and HT, the idea of travelling with one of these 'innovative' open access efforts, one man and his dog running a train every few hours, doesn't seem at all appealing. Much rather take my chances with a proper TOC who have enough capacity to manage some backup when it goes wrong. Might be cheap, not sure the apparent in-built lack of reliability makes it worth it at the moment.

 

[IanXC]

I have to say, given the ongoing dramas with GC and HT, the idea of travelling with one of these 'innovative' open access efforts, one man and his dog running a train every few hours, doesn't seem at all appealing. Much rather take my chances with a proper TOC who have enough capacity to manage some backup when it goes wrong. Might be cheap, not sure the apparent in-built lack of reliability makes it worth it at the moment.

In terms of the required availability from the 180 fleet, GC need 6 units from a fleet of 10 (1 is away for refurb to be fair), HT need 3 from 4 for a full service. Which doesn't seem particularly onerous, but clearly Crofton are struggling to deliver that many for service each day.

 

[Crossover]

Is the weather having an effect do we think? Or is that now maintenance has moved from OOC, the expertise isn’t there?

Looks like there is widespread disruption again today. I notice the 1448 Kings Cross to Bradford is cancelled again with passengers advised to take the 1603. I was on the 1603 a couple of weeks ago and it was pretty much full then (few seats left) so I expect this one could be full, standing and rather uncomfortable!

 

[BestWestern]

In terms of the required availability from the 180 fleet, GC need 6 units from a fleet of 10 (1 is away for refurb to be fair), HT need 3 from 4 for a full service. Which doesn't seem particularly onerous, but clearly Crofton are struggling to deliver that many for service each day.

Indeed, it's more the total lack of anything to fall back on that is concerning.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, it's more the total lack of anything to fall back on that is concerning.

This has always been the case with GC. Their route control was (is?) done by "half a head" in XC Control. Add to that the fact that there is very little redundancy in the fleet and you'll appreciate why it can be really flaky.

When it works, GC are a wonderful operator. When it falls on its arse though, it falls big style.

 

[robertclark125]

Their website has a travel updates section. If you select "Grand Central Trains only", it says there are no planned changes to train times today. Their Facebook page suggests otherwise, as does this thread.

 

[dk1]

What a shame the Open Access operators don't appear on the same PPM tables as the TOCs. Would there be any other colour they would show apart from red? Abysmal service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the weather having an effect do we think? Or is that now maintenance has moved from OOC, the expertise isn’t there?

Surely GC had their own expertise, ie they didn’t use OOC for their own 180s?

 

[HowardGWR]

I see on Wikipedia page that there were problems with these trains from the outset. Have these been consistently in one technical area?

 

[AlterEgo]

What a shame the Open Access operators don't appear on the same PPM tables as the TOCs. Would there be any other colour they would show apart from red? Abysmal service.

Yes, open access operators generally don't run many trains so they frequently post scores of 100% on a daily basis.

 

[DanNCL]

Surely GC had their own expertise, ie they didn’t use OOC for their own 180s?

Yes, iirc the GC 180s used to be maintained alongside the HSTs at Heaton.

 

[bb21]

What a shame the Open Access operators don't appear on the same PPM tables as the TOCs. Would there be any other colour they would show apart from red? Abysmal service.

Which tables are you looking at? The daily national performance update email do include all OA operators.

 

[dk1]

Yes, open access operators generally don't run many trains so they frequently post scores of 100% on a daily basis.

But then if you only run 5 trains a day & cancel one that's immediately 80% or below. Feel sorry for the proper TOCs who get shown warts & all.

 

[dk1]

Which tables are you looking at? The daily national performance update email do include all OA operators.

Not seen that or seen them held to account. They always get praised for their so called fabulous customer service & friendly feel. I have never understood that

 

[AlterEgo]

Not seen that or seen them held to account. They always get praised for their so called fabulous customer service & friendly feel. I have never understood that

They generally are excellent in those two regards. But very flaky performance wise as you say.

 

[dk1]

They generally are excellent in those two regards. But very flaky performance wise as you say.

I've just looked at their 'how did we do' performances. Well getting into the 80s appears the norm with 69% recently for the NE of GC. It's all pretty grim really & HT have had some unusually harsh & totally deserved criticism on social media of late. The IEP units should assist them but I'm not holding out much hope for any GC improvements in the next few years.

 

[GrandCentral]

It’s been a complete shambles for GC recently. Surely they knew the history of the 180s and their constant reliability issues? They have turned a TOC which was one of the best into a total laughing stock.

 

[pdeaves]

Yes, open access operators generally don't run many trains so they frequently post scores of 100% on a daily basis.

Which, unfairly, gives the impression that 'open access' is the solution to everything and franchised TOCs just aren't trying. Averaging over a long period tells a different story, but, like most statistics, it is possible to be selective and tell the story you want to tell.

 

[Failed Unit]

For those interested here is the GC performance in terms of trains on time (not sure how cancellations are reported on this)

https://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/how-are-we-doing/

Hull trains below
https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/customer-services/how-we-are-performing/

If that was a franchise operator the knives would be out.

Here is East Coast - As the ECML performance is generally poor it appears to be doing the best out of the 3 of them.
https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/about-us/our-performance-figures/


apologies - I can't paste the extract as per forum rules.

 

[westv]

There is obviously a demand for the services that OA operators provide and which larger TOCs can't be bothered to satisfy.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is obviously a demand for the services that OA operators provide and which larger TOCs can't be bothered to satisfy.

Generally (and I really do mean generally), Open Access operators attract people who are tempted by lower fares and the promise of perhaps a nicer journey, while accepting that the timetable may be infrequent. Their customer base tends to be less time-sensitive than those on franchised Intercity TOCs.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There is obviously a demand for the services that OA operators provide and which larger TOCs can't be bothered to satisfy.

A bit harsh - remember the franchised TOC's are basically asked to provide the service level specified , and are therefore largely resourced train wise accordingly. They also pay full Track Access charges ......

 

[Failed Unit]

A bit harsh - remember the franchised TOC's are basically asked to provide the service level specified , and are therefore largely resourced train wise accordingly. They also pay full Track Access charges ......

It is an interesting one, when you look at the beginning - GNER were never really interested in Hull, Lincoln, Middlesborough, Sunderland etc. We are seeing that a bit more because of the open access operators. I wonder how the bids would be reviewed back then.

Operator A will pay. £10M per annum to provide the same level of service.
operator B will pay. £8M per annum but will extend the current terminating service at York to Middlesborough and the Newark one to Cleethorpes.

I suspect operator A would win. I don't think in the past serving new destinations was really in the interest of the franchised operators and could actually cost them the bid.

West Coast is even more interesting.
Virgin did serve Shrewsbury and Blackpool pre Pendolino. Once they arrived the only off the wires destination that survived was Holyhead. Who's choice it was I don't know.

Looking at GC. I still remember in the beginning when they had HST problems they frequently bused from York to Sunderland and kept the remaining set on the London - York route. At the time I thought that was just a blatent ORCATs grab. I recall they did get loco hauled stock for the North East.