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Grand Central -- Bradford -- London KX

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Eric

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Today I caught the 16:47 from Wakefield Kirkgate to Bradford Interchange Grand Central -- Bradford -- London KX train and let me tell you that I counted only 27 passengers on board the five car set.

I've done this journey to and from London Kings Cross twice previous and again the service was sparsely populated with around 60 people on board.

So the question I ask is this,

Does this route make Grand Central any money?
 
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yorkie

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60? sounds like passenger numbers are picking up then! :)

I wish GC well, but their fare structure is baffling.

The Sunderland route is doing extremely well, but I predict that with such low numbers on the Bradford route, EC will be putting in requests for the ORCATS allocations to be looked at.

If booking in advance, EC is cheaper.

For walk-on travel, EC is usually cheaper if you split tickets.

EC is also quicker.

GC therefore need to re-consider their fare structure or low passenger numbers will continue, and EC will be more likely to be successful in their quest to see less ORCATS money head GC's way.

If I was GC, I'd be worried, and I'd lay the blame entirely at the fares policy.

GC are a good company and deserve better.
 

Eric

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60? sounds like passenger numbers are picking up then! :)

I wish GC well, but their fare structure is baffling.

The Sunderland route is doing extremely well, but I predict that with such low numbers on the Bradford route, EC will be putting in requests for the ORCATS allocations to be looked at.

If booking in advance, EC is cheaper.

For walk-on travel, EC is usually cheaper if you split tickets.

EC is also quicker.
GC therefore need to re-consider their fare structure or low passenger numbers will continue, and EC will be more likely to be successful in their quest to see less ORCATS money head GC's way.

If I was GC, I'd be worried, and I'd lay the blame entirely at the fares policy.

GC are a good company and deserve better.

I think that this needs to be looked at asap as the run time from Bradford to London is 3hr 22minutes with unnecessary long stops at Halifax, Brighouse (today we arrived at 17:02 and waited till 17:08 before the booked departure) , Wakefield Kirkgate and Doncaster.

But when using East Coast with a change at Leeds, you can do Bradford to London in 2hr 38mins.

Amazing that the direct route takes 44mins longer :o
 

yorkie

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Direct train, yes. Not a direct route!

GC can try requesting faster timings. But unless Northern re-time some of their trains to suit (unlikely), they may be stuck with those paths. It did take W&S quite some time to get decent paths, GC may be able to request better paths but realistically they are never going to beat EC on time.

So they have to beat them on price, and significantly at that. They are simply not doing that at present.
 

yorkie

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Hi DescendingSadly, I really should go on GC in West Yorks some time and meet you! I did ask after you once at Donny, I thought someone may be you but he wasn't! He said you weren't on duty that day.

I really hope passenger loadings pick up soon, but I can't see it unless the fare structure changes quite dramatically :|
 

Eric

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I will have checked your ticket then :)





Quality stuff and I offer my apology that we didn't get to have chat.

I was the 40 something year old sat in the 4th carriage.

Let me guess that you we're the chap with the whistle?

I can't fault the staff and presentation of the train, although it always amuses me the spelling mistakes that are on the electronic scrolling display screen.
 

Snapper

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Passenger numbers are picking up slowly. It's a bit like the early days of the Sunderland service.

What would speed GC up is scrapping the stop at Pontefract where numbers haven't met expectations. This would allow the service to be diverted via Hare Pk Jn and knock a fair few minutes off the journey.
 

DarloRich

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I think they need to get the service right and then spread the message about the service. All the West Riding Service from Doncaster have been lightly loaded but i a msure numbers will pick up (Just like the Sunderland service)
 

OMGitsDAVE

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As has been said above, the Sunderland service is now doing Extremely well!

As for the Bradfords, it seems highly unlikely for anything to pick up dramatically until well in to next year. The trains themselves are still suffering teething problems (IE 180s not coupling) but all in all, the service is increasing, slowly but surely.
 

317 forever

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Grand Central applied to reroute this service in May direct from Wakefield to Doncaster so that it no longer goes via Pontefract.

However, I did searches on National Rail for the beginnning of June and it appears GC will still go via Pontefract. So, has the Pontefract routing been reprieved for a few months at least?
 

junglejames

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60? sounds like passenger numbers are picking up then! :)

I wish GC well, but their fare structure is baffling.

The Sunderland route is doing extremely well, but I predict that with such low numbers on the Bradford route, EC will be putting in requests for the ORCATS allocations to be looked at.

If booking in advance, EC is cheaper.

For walk-on travel, EC is usually cheaper if you split tickets.

EC is also quicker.

GC therefore need to re-consider their fare structure or low passenger numbers will continue, and EC will be more likely to be successful in their quest to see less ORCATS money head GC's way.

If I was GC, I'd be worried, and I'd lay the blame entirely at the fares policy.

GC are a good company and deserve better.

Well this is where i stick up for GC.
Having gone to book tickets for a month in advance (just to compare), I end up with comparable timings both ways on train times close to each other (although admittedly GC have some horrible paths), and unless I want to be stuck onto a specific train, and book in advance (in which case i save myself £27), then GC are much much cheaper. Amazingly so.

So you say EC are cheaper if you split tickets? I wouldnt know this, but at least GCs fares are easy to understand. Splitting tickets isnt. Fares on the railways are far too complicated, but open access operators like GC, and the much missed WSMR, changed this.

So basically what you are saying, is that for the minority of passengers (those that know to split tickets, and those that book over a month in advance) it is cheaper with EC, but for the majority of passengers it is cheaper with GC.
It will just take time for the service/ reliability to settle, and for passengers to become fully happy with GC. Its happened on the Sunderland route, and ive no doubt it will on the Bradford route. Lets hope they are happy for the Sunderland route to subsidise the Bradford route until this happens. If they persevere like they did with the Sunderland route then things can surely only get better and better.

I am extremely dissapointed their application for Blackpool service was turned down though. Very very poor decision.
 

junglejames

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I don't quite see how it is a poor decision...

Less competition on the WCML. No direct journeys to Blackpool, unless its included in the next franchise. Other stations included in GCs proposals missing out on services.
 

MCR247

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Or you could use the path for an other ICWC service to Liverpool, a city more deserving?
 

tbtc

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Fares on the railways are far too complicated, but open access operators like GC, and the much missed WSMR, changed this

How can having more operators on a line make fares less complicated?

Take Doncaster - London (which is sometimes the quickest way to get from Sheffield to London). If I want a cheap fare I have to price up three different TOCs (as well as the "normal" fares). Now, that may mean I could get a cheaper (if I spend some time investigating), but that's a lot more complicated.

The "competition" which most on here seem to think is a good thing is one reason for the "complicated" fare structure.
 

Dewedin

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You'd really prefer it if Doncaster were only served by EC, and those cheaper fares weren't available?
 

tbtc

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You'd really prefer it if Doncaster were only served by EC, and those cheaper fares weren't available?

I'm saying that there's a trade off between "cheap fares being available (for those who know how to hunt them down and are prepared to spent a little longer buying tickets)" and "a less complicated fare system".

Do we want "cheap (for those in the know)" or "simple"?

Criticising the fare system for being too complicated whilst suggesting there should be more Open Access operators seems a little confused to me.
 

bluenoxid

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Well this is where i stick up for GC.
Having gone to book tickets for a month in advance (just to compare), I end up with comparable timings both ways on train times close to each other (although admittedly GC have some horrible paths), and unless I want to be stuck onto a specific train, and book in advance (in which case i save myself £27), then GC are much much cheaper. Amazingly so.

So you say EC are cheaper if you split tickets? I wouldnt know this, but at least GCs fares are easy to understand. Splitting tickets isnt. Fares on the railways are far too complicated, but open access operators like GC, and the much missed WSMR, changed this.

So basically what you are saying, is that for the minority of passengers (those that know to split tickets, and those that book over a month in advance) it is cheaper with EC, but for the majority of passengers it is cheaper with GC.
It will just take time for the service/ reliability to settle, and for passengers to become fully happy with GC. Its happened on the Sunderland route, and ive no doubt it will on the Bradford route. Lets hope they are happy for the Sunderland route to subsidise the Bradford route until this happens. If they persevere like they did with the Sunderland route then things can surely only get better and better.

I am extremely dissapointed their application for Blackpool service was turned down though. Very very poor decision.


Please do note that the post that you quote was written four months ago.
 

yorkie

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Well this is where i stick up for GC.
Having gone to book tickets for a month in advance (just to compare), I end up with comparable timings both ways on train times close to each other (although admittedly GC have some horrible paths), and unless I want to be stuck onto a specific train, and book in advance (in which case i save myself £27), then GC are much much cheaper. Amazingly so.
Fares are so high on this route (that's down to DfT policy) that I now consider it to be like an airline, ie I must book in advance to be able to afford it. And I include GC in that.
So you say EC are cheaper if you split tickets? I wouldnt know this, but at least GCs fares are easy to understand.
I think that almost anyone in the UK who has travelled on a train or read a major newspaper knows about 'split tickets' now.

GC's fares are not that easy to understand, especially when their definition of "Off Peak" is the complete opposite to that as defined by East Coast for the Any Permitted tickets.

"Welcome on board this Grand Central Train, Off Peak tickets routed Grand central only are not valid, despite the fact this is an off peak train and operated by Grand Central. This is extremely simple and anyone holding an Off Peak ticket routed Any Permitted is valid." Of course they won't quite word it like that on their announcements as they don't want to admit to the absurdity of it.

According to ATOC, the name "Off Peak" describes when you can travel. Does that make any sense when looking at the York to London GC and Any Permitted Off Peak fares? Nope, it makes no sense at all. GC can claim innocence but they must be aware of the situation and if you can't change the rail industry, you have to fit in with it. Their fares have been a farce from day one, and continue to be, despite many changes.
Splitting tickets isnt.
It's not difficult. Football fans know about it and do it all the time.

Anyway GC are not immune from it being cheaper to split the journey into a combination of tickets. Everyone who travels regularly between York & Sunderland knows it's cheaper to split at Hartlepool!
Fares on the railways are far too complicated, but open access operators like GC, and the much missed WSMR, changed this.
No, they didn't, they can't change it.
So basically what you are saying, is that for the minority of passengers (those that know to split tickets, and those that book over a month in advance) it is cheaper with EC, but for the majority of passengers it is cheaper with GC.
No, the majority of customers travelling between London and Yorkshire book in advance, and therefore EC is considerably cheaper.
It will just take time for the service/ reliability to settle, and for passengers to become fully happy with GC. Its happened on the Sunderland route, and ive no doubt it will on the Bradford route. Lets hope they are happy for the Sunderland route to subsidise the Bradford route until this happens. If they persevere like they did with the Sunderland route then things can surely only get better and better.
The Sunderland route was always going to be much more viable than the Bradford route to be honest.

I am extremely dissapointed their application for Blackpool service was turned down though. Very very poor decision.
I think it's a poor decision as open access operators should be allowed to flourish.

However open access operators that have ludicrous pricing policies need to re-consider their position, or they will continue to run trains that are less than 10% loaded at times of less demand (when your choice is £10 with EC or £40+ with GC) while being overloaded at busy times. With GC you know some trains will be empty and some will be wedged, because there is no yield management. (And no, having one train at a decent price on Mobitix (which rips people off on the West Riding route at the moment) is not effective yield management).
 

yorkie

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can it? hmm, might have to try that...

how is it done?
Just ask for a York-Hartlepool CDR, and a Hartlepool - Sunderland GC Anytime Return. That's what all the bashers on GC did (when they were required to purchase one, that is!).

Also available from stations associated with York, such as Cattal, Hammerton, Poppleton, Sherburn, Church Fenton & Ulleskelf.

If you live in somewhere like Harrogate, splitting at Cattal and Hartlepool gives you about half price compared to the through ticket.
 

142094

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Just ask for a York-Hartlepool CDR, and a Hartlepool - Sunderland GC Anytime Return. That's what all the bashers on GC did (when they were required to purchase one, that is!).

Also available from stations associated with York, such as Cattal, Hammerton, Poppleton, Sherburn, Church Fenton & Ulleskelf.

If you live in somewhere like Harrogate, splitting at Cattal and Hartlepool gives you about half price compared to the through ticket.

Thought that split disappered last year (the one at Hartlepool) and that it works out at the same price now?
 

yorkie

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Thought that split disappeared last year (the one at Hartlepool) and that it works out at the same price now?
York-Hartlepool Anytime Rtn (GC Only) £13.00
York-Hartlepool Off Peak Day Rtn (Not Darlo) £11.60

Hartlepool-Sunderland Anytime Rtn (GC Only) £4.00

York-Sunderland Anytime Rtn (GC Only) £17.00
York-Sunderland Off Peak Day Rtn (Any route) £25.40

So it's £15.60 splitting at Hartlepool, versus £17.00. Providing you return the same day it is cheaper to split at Hartlepool, and with the added bonus that you can also use NT/TPE if required (can be useful in the event of a cancellation as it gives you flexibility without having to stick to what GC instruct you to do).

GC are mad for allowing that to happen, because they are losing revenue to TPE/NT as a result.

All they have to do is introduce a GC Off Peak ticket at, say, £10 or something and they'd get £10 revenue rather than their share of an £11.60 ticket (the majority would go to TPE/NT I expect, although I am aware Orcats is biased towards direct trains but with only 4 a day, I can only guess what the distribution might be, but I'd expect GC to get less than 50% of it).

Also GC have not always been obeying the rules of impartial retailing. On several occasions when I asked for a return to Hartlepool, I was offered the more expensive GC ticket (in contravention of the rules), I then had to specifically ask for the cheaper ticket. That's a no-no. If I had been a mystery shopper for ATOC, they could have been in trouble...
 
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