Grand Central apply to replace HSTs

[Stats]

Grand Central have applied to replace their existing track access agreements with a single new one for an additional 10 years. The application includes operating with a uniform fleet, expected to be 180s and refurbishment to existing 180s to improve reliability with the investment to be rolled out in 2016/17.

Their reasoning is that it will allow more flexible deployment of their fleet, more robust timetabling, fits better with a recast ECML timetable post IEP and removes the need for HSTs to be fitted with ERTMS.

So the door shuts on another potential home for displaced HSTs.

GC also say they are looking at reinstating the disused platform at Hartlepool and other station investments.

http://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/news-press/grand-central-seeks-rail-contract-extension/

Grand Central Seeks Rail Contract Extension

Consultation launched to seek views on rail contract extension

Grand Central has outlined proposals for new investments to deliver further improvements to services as it seeks to extend its open access rail contract. This week marks the launch of a public consultation on Grand Central’s application to obtain the right to run trains until 2026.

As an open-access train operator, Grand Central operates under a Track Access Contract approved by the Office of Rail Regulation. The 28 day consultation will seek views on the extension of Grand Central’s current Track Access Contract, to run until 2026.

Richard McClean, Managing Director of Grand Central said;

“Over the next few years, we plan to make very significant investments in our train fleet and supporting stations and infrastructure. We are applying to extend our current Track Access Contract for ten years as we want the opportunity to grow and improve our service for Grand Central’s passengers and communities.”

The proposed investments include:

• Significant investment in the rolling stock to improve reliability, including the option to move to a uniform fleet of Class 180 trains
• Subject to final agreement with stakeholders and Network Rail, re-instating the disused platform at Hartlepool to allow greater flexibility and capacity
• In addition, Grand Central intends to invest in other areas at other stations, notably car parking and improved passenger facilities....

 

[sonic2009]

Link to source please?

 

[thetangoman]

Link to source please?

This weeks Rail issue 729 Page 15

 

[Beveridges]

Surely ERTMS is many, many years away from coming to the ECML ?

 

[The Planner]

It is being tested on the southern end, on the Hertford loop as we speak. Give it 10 years and it will be slowly creeping across the country.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Surely ERTMS is many, many years away from coming to the ECML ?

I would expert all species of ECML IEP and any units undergoing major refurb to roll out of the works with it fitted.↲

the interesting thing here is the mention of more 180s. HSTs for Hull Trains anyone? I would thing FGW would want to hold onto theres for Cotswald line and Oxford fasts even post GW Wiring/IEP?

 

[anthony263]

When IEP comes online I wont be too surprised if FGW keep some hst's in case there are problems with the new units.

After which It will be interesting to see what happens with the 180's especially if Hull trains order brand new electric trains providing the line to hull is electrified.

That should mean Grand Central have an opportunity to get a good number of class 180's

 

[ainsworth74]

HSTs for Hull Trains anyone?

Doubtful in the extreme I'd imagine there would be no advantage to them for operating HSTs. They'll be looking at EMUs in any case if their scheme to get wires up to Hull comes to fruition.

 

[Blindtraveler]

When IEP comes online I wont be too surprised if FGW keep some hst's in case there are problems with the new units.

After which It will be interesting to see what happens with the 180's especially if Hull trains order brand new electric trains providing the line to hull is electrified.

That should mean Grand Central have an opportunity to get a good number of class 180's

If HT go down the new stock route I should have though the standard 5 car Bi-Mode IEP would be what they wanted. If First retain Scotrail in 2015 I would say that the HST sets the company owns would transfer there to take over some express work to Aberdeen and Inverness pritty soon after the new GW Stock comes in. These may be joined by the GC Wrakes if they are withdrawn and they could, if power doored go on till 2025 when potentially voyagers could take over↲

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think they are looking at the impending electrification of the hull route and the availability of 180s to themselves.

 

[ainsworth74]

If HT go down the new stock route I should have though the standard 5 car Bi-Mode IEP would be what they wanted.

Not if they've wired or are shortly to have wired to Hull.

If First retain Scotrail in 2015 I would say that the HST sets the company owns would transfer there to take over some express work to Aberdeen and Inverness pritty soon after the new GW Stock comes in. These may be joined by the GC Wrakes if they are withdrawn and they could, if power doored go on till 2025 when potentially voyagers could take over

I suspect it's more likely First will simply scrap their HST sets and that the same will probably happen to the GC sets. I'm sorry but people are going to have to accept that within the next ten years we're going to be seeing HSTs going under the cutters torch.

 

[anthony263]

I suspect it's more likely First will simply scrap their HST sets and that the same will probably happen to the GC sets. I'm sorry but people are going to have to accept that within the next ten years we're going to be seeing HSTs going under the cutters torch.

Sad but true although It should provide plenty of spares for those hst's which do remain in service as well as those entering preservation.

I wouldnt be surprised to see one of the Grand Central hst's being preserved after it is withdrawn from service although I do wonder what preserved railways would take a hst although the west somerset would be a good bet

 

[IanXC]

If HT go down the new stock route I should have though the standard 5 car Bi-Mode IEP would be what they wanted.

I seem to recall HT's proposal included a dedicated depot in Hull (creating local jobs) for the proposed new stock. I think that leaves the field wide open for what it could be.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Not if they've wired or are shortly to have wired to Hull.



I suspect it's more likely First will simply scrap their HST sets and that the same will probably happen to the GC sets. I'm sorry but people are going to have to accept that within the next ten years we're going to be seeing HSTs going under the cutters torch.

I do accept that this will happen however I was purely wondering if this may happen simply because IEP is mainly replacing stock and extra capacity will be needed short term on routes from which sprinters and other DMUs could be cascaded to replace pacers etc or go on routes where a DMU is more suited. I would guess a future later life home for things like 185s and voyagers is such routes but as a stopgap HSTs would work

 

[Stats]

Link to source please?

Sorry. I was looking at the application on the Network Rail site and I was on a device where copying and pasting isn't easy.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...C application - Closing date 2 September 2013

 

[thelongestroad]

as a stopgap HSTs would work

The frames will be falling to pieces by then!

 

[tbtc]

I'm sorry but people are going to have to accept that within the next ten years we're going to be seeing HSTs going under the cutters torch

True.

Leaving aside jokes about "improving reliability by getting even more troublesome 180s", I think its interesting that GC's sensible plans for simplifying their rolling stock by concentrating on only one type of train are to get more 180s (a fairly small class which they may face competition for) instead of getting more HSTs (to replace all 180s).

If the argument that "HSTs will last until 2035" are believable then its odd that GC aren't planning on replacing 180s with HSTs (since there are going to be a lot of HSTs unused after IEP is introduced in 2017).

Shows a lack of faith in the long term future of HSTs (despite enthusiasts wanting them to go on forever).

Question is (as I've said on another thread), what's the alternative if GC's plan is turned down? What long term future for Open Access?

 

[Beveridges]

I dont think a single HST should be scrapped until the last 142 has gone!

 

[Blindtraveler]

despite being a dy hard pacer enthusiast I agree

 

[Max]

If the argument that "HSTs will last until 2035" are believable then its odd that GC aren't planning on replacing 180s with HSTs (since there are going to be a lot of HSTs unused after IEP is introduced in 2017).

Shows a lack of faith in the long term future of HSTs (despite enthusiasts wanting them to go on forever).

Perhaps one of the factors is the potentially significant cost involved in bringing the Mk3 HST trailers up to standard (full internal refurbishment, power-doors etc.), versus the relatively minor costs for the relatively new fleet of 180s. If GC do take on Hull Trains' 180s in the next couple of years they are realistically only going to need a minor refresh, and mechanically they seem to be doing much better at the moment.

Plus, it could well be that the 180s will be available well before any HSTs are coming out of service if the electrification plans for Selby-Hull push forward quickly.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps one of the factors is the potentially significant cost involved in bringing the Mk3 HST trailers up to standard (full internal refurbishment, power-doors etc.), versus the relatively minor costs for the relatively new fleet of 180s. If GC do take on Hull Trains' 180s in the next couple of years they are realistically only going to need a minor refresh, and mechanically they seem to be doing much better at the moment

This is what I'm thinking - the costs of keeping HSTs going (and bringing them up to 2020 standards) are maybe a lot more significant than some enthusiasts realise.

 

[swt_passenger]

This was also discussed a couple of weeks ago in the GC 180 thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1536054&postcount=20

Eagle linked to the TAA...

 

[Sidious]

Is capacity at Hartlepool such an issue that the other platform needs reinstating?

It has a northbound Northern service once per hour at xx:17 and a southbound at xx:19 every hour, so for at least 55 minutes each hour the platform is clear.

Freight services are sporadic and occasional and can be routed into the non-operational platform.

I don't see the need to open another platform...

 

[tbtc]

Is capacity at Hartlepool such an issue that the other platform needs reinstating?

It has a northbound Northern service once per hour at xx:17 and a southbound at xx:19 every hour, so for at least 55 minutes each hour the platform is clear.

Freight services are sporadic and occasional and can be routed into the non-operational platform.

I don't see the need to open another platform...

Maybe it's a cheap infrastructure spend that would let GC look like the good guys and "win" an extension of their current ECML paths (a cheaper version of the HT idea of wiring east of Selby)?

(rather than absolutely necessary to fit in more GC services)

 

[asylumxl]

Is capacity at Hartlepool such an issue that the other platform needs reinstating?

It has a northbound Northern service once per hour at xx:17 and a southbound at xx:19 every hour, so for at least 55 minutes each hour the platform is clear.

Freight services are sporadic and occasional and can be routed into the non-operational platform.

I don't see the need to open another platform...

And what are the current platform lengths?

 

[Anvil1984]

Is capacity at Hartlepool such an issue that the other platform needs reinstating?

It has a northbound Northern service once per hour at xx:17 and a southbound at xx:19 every hour, so for at least 55 minutes each hour the platform is clear.

Freight services are sporadic and occasional and can be routed into the non-operational platform.

I don't see the need to open another platform...

A couple of points

The Northern services are Northbound at xx02 and Southbound at xx 15 and probably take up about 5 mins each on the section where they share the same track. Also the freights are more than sporadic quite a bit of traffic goes up to Tyne Dock this way

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Could Grand Central eventually take on the lease for all 14 180's assuming they are freed up by electrification from FGW and eventually from HT?

 

[Aictos]

It is being tested on the southern end on the Hertford loop as we speak. Give it 10 years and it will be slowly creeping across the country.

Southern end, my dear fella I think your compass is wonky it's actually been tested on the northern end of the Hertford Loop between Molewood Junction and Bragbury Junction using the Down Hertford for the tests

 

[D365]

Southern end, my dear fella I think your compass is wonky it's actually been tested on the northern end of the Hertford Loop between Molewood Junction and Bragbury Junction using the Down Hertford for the tests

I think he means the southern end of the ECML, not the loop specifically. ERTMS is supposed to be commissioned on the ECML by 2019, up to Doncaster. Also GWML in the current resignalling programme.

As I said in the thread linked by swt_passenger earlier, East Coast did offer to trade their 5 180s (which are now back at FGW) with GC's 3 HSTs; for some reason they didn't take up that offer. I believe the FGW lease stipulates them keeping the 180s in use until 2016, but that should be around the right time.

Could Grand Central eventually take on the lease for all 14 180s assuming they are freed up by electrification from FGW and eventually from HT?

Could happen, I suppose, unless they see reason to go for bi-mode IEP. HT could go for electric IEP as it should be quick, easy and ultimately cheap to tag on to the current order.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could Grand Central eventually take on the lease for all 14 180's assuming they are freed up by electrification from FGW and eventually from HT?

Could happen, I suppose, unless they see reason to go for bi-mode IEP. HT could go for electric IEP as it should be quick, easy and ultimately cheap to tag on to the current order.

Though unless they're planning to attempt to increase their services rather significantly they wouldn't have a need for fourteen units as that would nearly double their fleet...

I can see them wanting to take the HT 180s as an extra four units would allow them to replace their HSTs plus give them an extra spare but an extra nine?