Graffiti, what can be done?

[HSTEd]

In order to provide one member of staff on duty every day you need more than that.
And without night vision equipment he is likely to be ineffective when attempting to police multiple sidings by himself.

The costs are just too high.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And I can't imagine the expense of putting secure sheds in place of every stabling siding on the network....

Plus, shed at remote location = covering to allow these idiots to work unseen for most of the night. First thing they'll do is spray the CCTV lens in it...

 

[L&Y Robert]

I'm surprised that an organisation can spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of pounds on their assets and yet store them outside in what is clearly insecure compounds. Investing a few more £££ in an effective security presence seems to have escaped them.

Perople buy cars - expensive, some of 'em, and happily store them in the public street, all day, all night, all year, all weathers. Several of my immediate neighbours have posh cars - and garages to keep them in but they never - and I mean never - put them away. They leave them on the street. Meanwhile I have noticed that graffiti is usually applied to artefacts in the "Public" domain - along the railway, bridges, signal cabinets, on the rolling stock and so on. But how long before a row of parked cars recieves attention? Those who "Like" graffiti might have to have a fresh think when their out-in-the-street all night car, or still-mortgaged house gets an artistic makeover one night.

I suggest (most of my suggestions are "wild", but some of them made years ago have come into being!) - I suggest that spray paint be treated very much like the poisons register. You can buy it, but you must show ID, give your address, also the type, colour and number of cans bought - and all this data is then stored electronically, on - you've guessed it - a Central Graffiti data-base. Then, what's this? A new art-work in pink, mauve and orange on my new London Bus? Aha! Eduardo Pantoufle Ayefoursize bought just those exact colours at Halfords, Golders Green, yesterday. Need I say more?
It'd be cheaper than having to clean the wretched stuff off, day in day out.

 

[HSTEd]

But paints have a long shelf life and are far more commonly used than the things that go on the poisons register.

A substantial fraction of the population has access to or regularly uses spray-paint, which rather dilutes the use of such a database to find perpetrators.
And then there are the civil liberties problems to consider.

 

[martybabes]

Perople buy cars - expensive, some of 'em, and happily store them in the public street, all day, all night, all year, all weathers. Several of my immediate neighbours have posh cars - and garages to keep them in but they never - and I mean never - put them away. They leave them on the street. Meanwhile I have noticed that graffiti is usually applied to artefacts in the "Public" domain - along the railway, bridges, signal cabinets, on the rolling stock and so on. But how long before a row of parked cars recieves attention? Those who "Like" graffiti might have to have a fresh think when their out-in-the-street all night car, or still-mortgaged house gets an artistic makeover one night.

Most of us have cars, some of us have expensive cars, and some of us have more than one expensive car but they are, for the most part, parked within sight and sound of our houses. The graffiti problem we are discussing is in relation to railway assets on railway property. When the artist who adds a touch of gaffito to a private car starts a trend repeated on a wider scale, you will then see cars parked in garages or subject to some sort of additional security and/or surveillance.

And let's look at simple economics for just a moment:
10 sets of multiple-units @ £1m each set = £10m
1 man to wander around all night = £30k **
Cost of man in relation to cost of asset = 0.3%

1 expensive car parked on driveway = £50k
1 small piece of anti-theft equipment (ate) = £150
Cost of ate in relation to cost of car = 0.3%

1 cheaper car parked in driveway =£5k
1 small piece of anti-theft equipment (ate) = £150
Cost of ate in relation to cost of car = 3%

How many of us have some sort of anti-theft equipment bought ADDITIONALLY to that supplied with the car? If your car is worth around £50k, I would venture that some of us have indeed done so. A £5k car can also mean an investment of 150 smackers to keep it. And ate can mean a garage, an alarm system, cctv, a mechanical/electrical device affixed to the car - the list is almost endless but the costs compare.

Q E D


** that's not what he gets paid; that's what it costs to employ him

 

[Eagle]

I cheaper car parked in driveway =£5k
1 small piece of anti-theft equipment (ate) = £150
Cost of ate in relation to cost of car = 0.03%

That's 3%, not 0.03%.

 

[martybabes]

That's 3%, not 0.03%.

Oops - thanks. Now corrected.

 

[HSTEd]

Theft also tends to result in the asset being a total loss.

We don't scrap trains because of paint being applied to them.

 

[ess]

Many of the tags I see have years in them like ...'08 Not painting over that is very poor.

 

[Marklund]

NR has , under part 17 of schedule 2 to the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development Order 1995, the right to carry out certain developments on its operational land in connection with the movement of traffic by rail without having to make a planning application.

You seemed to suggest that they could just knock up sheds willy nilly. I would suggest they can not do this due to the caveat in clause A1Ci of the same legislation which indicates that development is not permitted for "a building used for an industrial process" A maintenance shed may fall under this definition.

The permitted development rights really relate to operational matters like GSMR masts rather than construction works.

I beg to differ, especially with the bold. I have seen it myself, granted not maintenance sheds, but defiantly structures.

 

[SGS]

This article should raise the blood pressure 'round here. It's from the Guardian (where else?)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2013/jun/21/my-secret-life-graffiti-artist

The courts and the media like to make out that we cause thousands of pounds worth of damage to trains, and that it takes many man hours to clean them. But in fact the trains have a protective film on them and the paint we use is acrylic – it's water-based. Most train yards have a washer system, which we call the "buff", that takes about 10 minutes to clean the whole train, and that's it – it goes back into service....

 

[GatwickDepress]

This article should raise the blood pressure 'round here. It's from the Guardian (where else?)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2013/jun/21/my-secret-life-graffiti-artist

but at the end of the day he's getting his name – VAMP – out there, and that's all that matters.

Noun:
1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

Right, vandalism to bolster a hungry ego, not art.

Look mate, spewing some word that a twelve year old would adopt as his World of Warcraft character name all over property like a seagull crapping poster paints isn't exactly "graffiti art", is it? Now, if you were to perhaps try creating murals and imagery to represent your heartfelt desires, what makes you bitter, some political discourse or a message to all the world...maybe be a bit...artistic? I might nod that you're trying to express something and that might even be called "art" by some people.

Now, if I was awaiting a train and an FCC 319 plunked its way down the platform coated head to toe - though leaving the windows and signage viewable, I mean, you want people to see it, right? If that train had a mural depicting fat corporate executives wearing sombreros and bandannas in a bus marked "First" riding into the desert sunset away from a depressed looking sheriff with "DfT" on his badge...that might even be art. I might even nod and smile at the "bus bandits" imagery. Writing your name just doesn't get anything across except how much of a prolific tit you are.

Picture related. Warning: large image.

 

[NightStar]

While I live in the US I can say that about 10 years or so ago the retched stuff was everywhere where I grew up. Of course I was born and raised for the first 14 years of my life in the North Eastern US in what was once a thriving industrial area. Think IBM, aerospace, and defence industries. But Most of the industries were long gone leaving empty buildings and rusting reminders of the US industrial past. And reminders of ever changing global economies, the end of the cold war era and the need for the defence industries. The Graffiti crap and gangs where just about everywhere. Freight trains, buildings, you name it had the crap on it. I really never have approved of it nor like seeing the crap, but in some places where everything is run down and abandoned I do not think you will be able to do much about it? The state of the country and the economy has alot to do with what is going on. Of course the governments don't care about the everyday working class people and are unwilling to do much to help these days either. They are only interested in their own special interest and lining their pockets with silver and gold.

As for having to give name, rank, etc to buy spray paint. That is a invasion of our rights in my opinion. I use the stuff all the time. My hobby is restoring vintage electrical machinery and I always repaint the units or parts of them during the rebuild process.

Here in the US the drug addicts have forced the government to dictate how much of certain over the counter meds we can buy at one time, which is the biggest pain in the rear ever for those of us who suffer from allergies and what not. And yet these restrictions have not helped as the little tits have found other ways to make their garbage and inflict more hardships as the governments respond with more silly restrictions that do no darn good at all.

Robert
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
GatwickDepress, That Thomas image for me is a sore reminder of what has happened to some of my personal favorite heritage railway stock over here. Heck we even have thieves stealing the horns, bells, plates, wiring, etc. Sad affair to say the least. Yet most heritage lines do not have the resources to do much about the problem of protecting the historic artifacts in their care.

Robert

 

[L&Y Robert]

But paints have a long shelf life and are far more commonly used than the things that go on the poisons register.

A substantial fraction of the population has access to or regularly uses spray-paint, which rather dilutes the use of such a database to find perpetrators.
And then there are the civil liberties problems to consider.

Yes, yes, yes - of course! There are always "Against it" arguments whatever you want to do. But one sets these disadvantages (if so they be) against the advantages - its called (or used to be called) Cost Benefit Analysis. When doing a C.B.A. one tries to think of everything which has a bearing on the matter (including cost, politics, parliamentary time, and so-on), ascribe a value to each item and then do the sum.

How does Civil Liberties come into it? Freedom to buy the paint? Not a problem for anyone with a legitimate use for it. Or freedom to add my personal graphic designs to a piece of public property? Or private property for that matter (it's only a question of time before the parked cars and house frontages get the treatment - probably happening already if you know where to look).

 

[Muzer]

Now, if I was awaiting a train and an FCC 319 plunked its way down the platform coated head to toe - though leaving the windows and signage viewable, I mean, you want people to see it, right? If that train had a mural depicting fat corporate executives wearing sombreros and bandannas in a bus marked "First" riding into the desert sunset away from a depressed looking sheriff with "DfT" on his badge...that might even be art. I might even nod and smile at the "bus bandits" imagery.

I now want to see this.

 

[TheVicLine]

I ran the graffiti team for LU a few years ago, LU's policy is that all graffiti is removed within 24hrs. We used to remove 1000's of tags and murals from the tube stock every night (they still do) and it was hard work, having read some of the comments posted on here it made me smile to know that the cleaning was noticed and appreciated by people using the network.

The trains were covered in graffiti a few years ago and after Chancery Lane when the Central line stock was suspended it was decided to remove it all while the trains were stuck in the depots. It was a success and the other lines followed suit, the staff brought in to clean the graffiti were kept on and formed the full time grafitti team... happy days.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, yes, yes - of course! There are always "Against it" arguments whatever you want to do. But one sets these disadvantages (if so they be) against the advantages - its called (or used to be called) Cost Benefit Analysis. When doing a C.B.A. one tries to think of everything which has a bearing on the matter (including cost, politics, parliamentary time, and so-on), ascribe a value to each item and then do the sum.

Such a database with computerised terminals in all shops that currently sell paints (and there are lots of them) would cost a fortune to maintain and construct in the first place.
Graffiti doesn't really cause that much expensive damage, in fact it doesn't even prevent a train running unless it is over the cab windows or lights.

I can't see the CBR coming out anywhere near positive.

How does Civil Liberties come into it? Freedom to buy the paint? Not a problem for anyone with a legitimate use for it.

You could make the same argument that we should register all purchases of eggs because they are sometimes used to vandalise things, or that all bricks should unique serial numbers on them just in case one is thrown at a train.

I don't see why the state should know precisely how much paint I buy when I can think of vast numbers of uses for paint that don't break any laws.

(it's only a question of time before the parked cars and house frontages get the treatment - probably happening already if you know where to look).

All the evidence appears to be that the problem is getting better, but yet you claim its going to escalate to people grafitting parked cars and house fronts?
That sounds like Daily Mail-esque alarmism to me.

 

[DarloRich]

I beg to differ, especially with the bold. I have seen it myself, granted not maintenance sheds, but defiantly structures.

I agree that structures can be built if they are operationally associated, but this relates to small structures like an equipment cabin that you might see associated with a radio mast rather than a large shed.

 

[L&Y Robert]

You could make the same argument that we should register all purchases of eggs because they are sometimes used to vandalise things, or that all bricks should unique serial numbers on them just in case one is thrown at a train.

Yes, but I'm not doing. Just spray paint cans, OK?

 

[455driver]

ps i'm actually a huge fan of the stuff so am actually quite sad at the lack of it!

Perhaps you would like me and a few others to spray paint your house and/or car!