Govia Thameslink offence

[Jimcarey59]

Hi. I recently was stopped for ‘sandwiching’ / ‘doughnutting’ my tickets and details taken by Thameslink Railway ‘revenue protection officers’ I have a GTREMG witness statement receipt given to me on the spot and I am awaiting an intent to prosecute letter

Any advice on what to do? Does anyone have experience with this situation and with Thameslink on how they will deal with it? Saw a thread that ‘GTR’ tend to deal with it out of court…

I can update when I receive this said letter. But sort of panicking as all the bloke mentioned was prosecuting this and criminal record that. Any information whether it’s reassuring or not is appreciated. My only intention now is to avoid any criminal record and sort this away from the court. Many thanks



Also, I’m not sure if sharing the exact journey and stops I didn’t have a valid ticket for is wise? Or am I being paranoid.

 

[Haywain]

all the bloke mentioned was prosecuting this and criminal record that.

He quite rightly informed you that if prosecuted and found guilty, you will have committed a criminal offence and therefore receive a conviction and a criminal record. That doesn't alter the fact that GTR appear to agree out of court settlements with those who engage with them appropriately, and therefore do not get a criminal record.

Also, I’m not sure if sharing the exact journey and stops I didn’t have a valid ticket for is wise? Or am I being paranoid

GTR do read the forum, but they know what you did anyway, don't they? We wouldn't advise giving too much detail here but it helps to provide us with information that allows us to help you.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Your exact journey details and ticket(s) purchased would be a good start

Also you might want to change your username....

 

[Jimcarey59]

Your exact journey details and ticket(s) purchased would be a good start

Also you might want to change your username....

Why? (username part)

 

[Haywain]

Why? (username part)

Because if it is your actual name, a bit of anonymity allows you to be a little more open with us. If it isn't your name then there isn't a problem.

 

[Jimcarey59]

All tickets bought through trainline app

 

[Haywain]

All tickets bought through trainline app.

You will have to assume that it will become very clear to them what you have been doing.The key thing about how you respond will now be the exact wording of the letter they send to you, as yo are not required to provide more information than is requested. However, assume the worst and you won't be disappointed. GTR will want to recover the unpaid fares but they tend to be quite kind in their calculations. If you can work out how many times you have done this and what the fare would have been from your home station to the station for your gym would have been for each occasion, you will get an indication of how much you could be asked to pay.

 

[ikcdab]

In the case of donutting, don't they usually charge for the whole journey, not just the "hole"?
Without knowing the exact route, we don't know how far you come from London and it might be a very lopsided donut, but doesn't the same principles apply... You didn't have a valid ticket for the whole journey from London so the penalty will be the cost of the ticket from London to the gym. If you are just donutting three or four stops, then you probably haven't saved much anyway.
You admit what you did and it wasn't a mistake. You will most likely get a letter asking for your side of the story. When you get that, come back here for advice on best wording to reply. Assuming this is a first offence and they don't find a massive amount of fare dodging, they will then hopefully come back to you saying that if you pay £x, then the matter is closed. X will be missed fares plus around £150 admin fee.

 

[Jimcarey59]

You will have to assume that it will become very clear to them what you have been doing.The key thing about how you respond will now be the exact wording of the letter they send to you, as yo are not required to provide more information than is requested. However, assume the worst and you won't be disappointed. GTR will want to recover the unpaid fares but they tend to be quite kind in their calculations. If you can work out how many times you have done this and what the fare would have been from your home station to the station for your gym would have been for each occasion, you will get an indication of how much you could be asked to pay.

Thank you very much, really appreciate it.

Will update upon receipt of letter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

In the case of donutting, don't they usually charge for the whole journey, not just the "hole"?
Without knowing the exact route, we don't know how far you come from London. If you are just donutting three or four stops, then you probably haven't saved much anyway.
You admit what you did and it wasn't a mistake. You will most likely get a letter asking for your side of the story. When you get that, come back here for advice on best wording to reply. Assuming this is a first offence and they don't find a massive amount of fare dodging, they will then hopefully come back to you saying that if you pay £x, then the matter is closed. X will be missed fares plus around £150 admin fee.

 

[Haywain]

In the case of donutting, don't they usually charge for the whole journey, not just the "hole"?

My comments are based on what we have seen being asked for by GTR in recent threads here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

If you are just donutting three or four stops, then you probably haven't saved much anyway.

That's not really a safe assumption - the 'home' journey could be West Hampstead Thameslink to London Bridge, and four stops from west Hampstead, on a fast train, would be Luton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

He said to avoid saying sorry when writing my side of the story. Considering this whole site seems to recommend saying sorry, I don’t know why he would say that?

It does seem an odd thing to have said, and won't alter my feeling that there should be an element of apology in response.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here where people think they can save a few quid by purchasing short distance tickets at either end of a journey, leaving a gaping hole in the middle. GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. They will send you a letter in the next few weeks that will ask for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. I suggest writing a short, concide reply mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they wish to do so.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. GTR will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Jimcarey59]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here where people think they can save a few quid by purchasing short distance tickets at either end of a journey, leaving a gaping hole in the middle. GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. They will send you a letter in the next few weeks that will ask for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. I suggest writing a short, concide reply mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they wish to do so.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. GTR will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Hi, thanks for the reply. How long can I expect to wait for the letter?

 

[Hadders]

It’s normally a few weeks although it can vary depending on their workload. GTR deal with thousands of these cases.

 

[Jimcarey59]

Hello again. I’ve attached the letter, please could I get some advice/help on how to respond so that I have the best chance of an out of court settlement. Any replies or help is much appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello again. I’ve attached the letter, please could I get some advice/help on how to respond so that I have the best chance of an out of court settlement. Any replies or help is much appreciated.View attachment 154318View attachment 154319

see post #11 and start work on a draft reply based on that advice - feel free to post that draft up here and ppl will suggest any amends they think would be of help to you in order to get offered an out of court settlement.

Do it in your own words, don't use AI to write it for you (AI generated drafts on here are always pretty bad!)

Good luck.

 

[Jimcarey59]

Hi. Below is my initial draft. I’ve tried to stick to @Hadders format and kept it brief, only responding to the offence in the letter. I also was wondering how to end the letter? Any and all replies are appreciated.


Dear Sir/madam,



I am writing in response to the notice of intention to prosecute letter dated X

- reference xxx.



On X I did not have a valid ticket for travel upon inspection at X (XXX) station. I would like to sincerely apologise for my action and wrongdoing.



I have learned how actions similar to mine negatively impact the rail industry and I am completely committed to purchasing the full, valid ticket for any and all future journeys.



I would like to outline that I am keen to reach a settlement without the need for court action and am willing to pay the full outstanding fare for this journey, plus any administrative expenses from this matter.

 

[30907]

A masterpiece of brevity, if I may say so. You might want to expand it slightly, but please don't run it through ChatGPT

However, you are in no position to offer to settle - you need to come on bended knee (metaphorically!) and ask if they would consider offering a settlement (which they usually will).

You (correctly) respond only to the one incident they mention, but be prepared for them to have investigated your Trainline history and come up with an amount that covers any previous suspicious purchases. If you are in that position (I'm not saying you are!) do your own sums for comparison.

 

[Jimcarey59]

A masterpiece of brevity, if I may say so. You might want to expand it slightly, but please don't run it through ChatGPT

However, you are in no position to offer to settle - you need to come on bended knee (metaphorically!) and ask if they would consider offering a settlement (which they usually will).

You (correctly) respond only to the one incident they mention, but be prepared for them to have investigated your Trainline history and come up with an amount that covers any previous suspicious purchases. If you are in that position (I'm not saying you are!) do your own sums for comparison.

Thanks!

How should I ask if they will settle out of court? I’m also not sure what else to add to make it longer

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks!

How should I ask if they will settle out of court? I’m also not sure what else to add to make it longer

You can say eg:

'I would be most grateful if you would be prepared to consider allowing me to resolve the matter without the need for court action.' before signing off with yours sincerely etc'

 

[Jimcarey59]

You can say eg:

'I would be most grateful if you would be prepared to consider allowing me to resolve the matter without the need for court action.' before signing off with yours sincerely etc'

‘I would be extremely grateful if you would consider this matter to be resolved without the need for court action, with an out of court settlement.

Yours sincerely, X’

Should I add a sentence saying ‘I am willing to pay any administrative fees plus the cost of the full fare for the ticket for this journey’ at the end? Or is that too pushy.

 

[WesternLancer]

Should I add a sentence saying ‘I am willing to pay any administrative fees plus the cost of the full fare for the ticket for this journey’ at the end? Or is that too pushy.

People often seem to say along those lines so reasonable to do (might be better phrased as 'your costs of dealing with this' as opposed to 'any administrative fees' but up to you really - I kind of think the former is more everyday usual language perhaps.

 

[antharro]

I have never liked wording along the lines of "I am willing to pay x and x". Because frankly, they have you by the short and curlies here. It's not up to you to tell them what you're willing to pay, so I would suggest something more along the lines of "I would be grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter amicably and without court action. I offer my full co-operation and I am prepared to cover whatever costs GTR have incurred."

 

[John R]

I have never liked wording along the lines of "I am willing to pay x and x". Because frankly, they have you by the short and curlies here. It's not up to you to tell them what you're willing to pay

This 100%. It has the air of “but no more…”

 

[AlterEgo]

It's GTR, they settle all the time anyway. It is possible to overthink these things.

 

[John R]

It's GTR, they settle all the time anyway. It is possible to overthink these things.

I’m sure you’re right, but I don’t think it’s inappropriate to advise someone that their wording might be construed in the wrong manner.

 

[Jimcarey59]

Hello, I am sending my letter but in order to have tracking (signed for confirmation), must I send it through a Royal Mail Post Office?

I have a first class stamp on the letter now and I was going to use a red letter box but I would like the peace of mind of having delivery confirmation.

Thanks.

 

[30907]

Hello, I am sending my letter but in order to have tracking (signed for confirmation), must I send it through a Royal Mail Post Office?

Yes, any post office will do it - or you can buy the postage online if you have a printer, but I imagine you will lose the value of the stamp.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the letter that the OP is about to post already has a First Class stamp stuck on it, then assuming it's not over size or over 100g weight, it can be sent Second Class 'signed for' by adding another £1.00 of stamps, or First Class 'signed for', with another £1.50. Has to be handed in at a Post Office counter so that the appropriate 'signed for' label can be added and a receipt issued.

 

[Jimcarey59]

Appreciate the above two replies

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Posted my response Saturday morning first class signed for, and no updates on the tracking. Should I send a second letter? (Same response)

I’m nearing the two week mark which is why I’m a tad worried.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Or is there an email address I can contact them with?

 

[bagels]

Appreciate the above two replies

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Posted my response Saturday morning first class signed for, and no updates on the tracking. Should I send a second letter? (Same response)

I’m nearing the two week mark which is why I’m a tad worried.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2024 ==

Or is there an email address I can contact them with?

Hi. Did you reach a resolution? I’m just in a similar situation so would really appreciate knowing your outcome.