Government considering road pricing for lorries

[rebmcr]

I do love the way people talk about the 'clean air lobby' as if that somehow does not include everyone who breathes?

There is a specific sector that actively lobbies on the subject though.

 

[Starmill]

I know there is, I was just pointing out that it's a shame that not everyone feels they have a strong stake in clean air.

 

[furnessvale]

But how much ton wise do they move, I go near in Sainsbury depot at Sherburne and they must have 100 lorries running 24 hours a day taking stuff to stores and the same amount coming in but nothing by rail. they claim they like rail but all there lorries run back empty

Tesco has 8 dedicated trains a day.

A major problem for rail is that for a number of years freight depots have been located with only the road option considered. Sensible companies now considering new build also look at the rail option, but there is an awful backlog of road only depots that would take many years to correct.

 

[furnessvale]

Agreed - but these outfits have introduced these pretty much as new flows, in conjunction with the freight operators, and are sizeable contracts. The problem is getting existing road traffic of less than train loads to move onto rail.

This is where recruiting the road haulier as a partner, not a competitor, is crucial.

Wincanton used to send many containers by road from Southampton Docks to the West Midlands. They still do send a lot by road, but chartering their own daily trains means they have 45 less HGVs, and crucially drivers, to worry about finding each way every day. In discussions with a WH Malcolm executive I was told exactly the same thing.

 

[HSTEd]

It is also worth noting that if we did have a national network of piggyback services, companies like Amazon could move towards a model where they would only have one delivery hub for the entire country, and they would blind load delivery vans at the single depot, and send them out unaccompanied.

Delivery driver meets his vehicle at the unloading point and does his round, then drives his van back to the unloading point at the end of his shift, where it could be shipped back to the depot.

That way the entire delivery need not be handled between the depot and the point at which it comes out of the van to go into the delivery address.
Same for things like Tesco.

Just a thought.

 

[furnessvale]

It is also worth noting that if we did have a national network of piggyback services, companies like Amazon could move towards a model where they would only have one delivery hub for the entire country, and they would blind load delivery vans at the single depot, and send them out unaccompanied.

Delivery driver meets his vehicle at the unloading point and does his round, then drives his van back to the unloading point at the end of his shift, where it could be shipped back to the depot.

That way the entire delivery need not be handled between the depot and the point at which it comes out of the van to go into the delivery address.
Same for things like Tesco.

Just a thought.

Of course, if we go far enough down that road (no pun intended) why send an unaccompanied lorry instead of just its body, ie container or swap body. Suddenly it fits within existing loading gauge and no need to build new lines except for extra paths etc.

 

[HSTEd]

Of course, if we go far enough down that road (no pun intended) why send an unaccompanied lorry instead of just its body, ie container or swap body. Suddenly it fits within existing loading gauge and no need to build new lines except for extra paths etc.

Because the cost of lifting the vehicle off the train makes it entirely uneconomic, and there is no container that is of comparable size to say an IVECO Daily delivery van.

Drive on, drive off reduces the operating costs of the service compared to the multitude of cranes and such. Especially in the early days when we are dealing with HGVs.

Especially with the rapid unloading we require to keep the service economic.

EDIT:

Additionally in the Amazon/Tesco case it allows them to load all fuel in the vehicles at a central location and maintain a proper record of how much fuel is being used for each round, and all vehicles could be serviced in the same location with the accordant savings that that brings.

 

[furnessvale]

Because the cost of lifting the vehicle off the train makes it entirely uneconomic, and there is no container that is of comparable size to say an IVECO Daily delivery van.

Drive on, drive off reduces the operating costs of the service compared to the multitude of cranes and such. Especially in the early days when we are dealing with HGVs.

Especially with the rapid unloading we require to keep the service economic.

EDIT:

Additionally in the Amazon/Tesco case it allows them to load all fuel in the vehicles at a central location and maintain a proper record of how much fuel is being used for each round, and all vehicles could be serviced in the same location with the accordant savings that that brings.

I don't wish to promote an argument as, at the end of the day we both want the same thing.

However, there are problems with your approach. I doubt any viable service could be mounted using only Iveco van sized vehicles. IMO full sized HGVs will need to be accommodated. However, ISO containers start at 10ft long and swap bodies are any size you desire.

Firstly, the UK loading gauge will not accept "rolling road" which is the method you are proposing. Even high bodied Iveco vans are pushing the UK loading gauge let alone a full size HGV. European "rolling road" (higher than possible in UK) limits HGV height to 4.0m as opposed to UK 4.2-4.6m
Secondly, "rolling road" is not viable anywhere within Europe without subsidies far larger than any UK government would consider.
Thirdly, "rolling road" has costs involved which outweigh the typical £20-£25 cost of a container/swap body lift. The costs include needlessly tying up a tractor unit and trailer on the train, which could be elsewhere earning money.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't wish to promote an argument as, at the end of the day we both want the same thing.

However, there are problems with your approach. I doubt any viable service could be mounted using only Iveco van sized vehicles. IMO full sized HGVs will need to be accommodated. However, ISO containers start at 10ft long and swap bodies are any size you desire.

Indeed, I was talking in hypotheticals about how such a service might be used in the future once established.

Firstly, the UK loading gauge will not accept "rolling road" which is the method you are proposing. Even high bodied Iveco vans are pushing the UK loading gauge let alone a full size HGV. European "rolling road" (higher than possible in UK) limits HGV height to 4.0m as opposed to UK 4.2-4.6m
Secondly, "rolling road" is not viable anywhere within Europe without subsidies far larger than any UK government would consider.

We would be talking about new build routes in any case, in which case what loading gauges are used in Europe is of no concern.

There is no capacity on the current network for fast freight operations, certainly not in the tonnage range likely to be economic

Thirdly, "rolling road" has costs involved which outweigh the typical £20-£25 cost of a container/swap body lift. The costs include needlessly tying up a tractor unit and trailer on the train, which could be elsewhere earning money.

The benefits of not tying the trailer and driver to the cargo are rather drastically reduced by scheduling problems associated with making sure tractors are all in the right position.
Time on the train is also rest too, which would be needed by the driver either way.

Container lift costs are enormous is cash terms (you need two lifts per trip, which is going to cover a significant HGV travel distance before you start) and will prevent the service from growing to start with.

You will also never be able to unload the train rapidly unless you have a highly uneconomic number of cranes.
Lorry tractors might appear to be expensive, but they are nowhere near as expensive as the trainset that is carrying them, or the terminal equipment.

With a rolling highway you can unload and reload simultaneously from a single platform, then your train can be through your baloon loop and rolling inside 20 minutes.