• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Governance of Rail Replacement Bus Services

Status
Not open for further replies.

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,691
As others have said, the simple answer is that the TOC has ultimate responsibilty. Unfortunately, there are good/bad TOCs, good/bad arrangements for employing contractors and good/bad staff on the front line organising the movement of passengers.
Complain to the TOC responsible if things don't go to plan.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Railman10

Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
32
Location
LONDON
Very simply it's the train operating company. That's who you have paid your money to and thus that's where your contract for transport is. How they manage their various suppliers (train builder, their fuel supplier, the provider of replacement buses even if further subcontracted by Network Rail, etc) is fully up to them.

As with anything else in life, you can complain but the provision of poor service is not often something you have a statutory right about.
Not CAN complain but MUST complain. Every time. Silence denotes assent and TOCs will take the lack of a complaint as an indication of satisfaction!
 

SwindonBert

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2017
Messages
187
Location
Swindon
I did have 1 horrendous bus driver on a trip from Swindon to Kemble, staff at the station were great, but the bus was from Bristol &, obviously thought he knew the route better than the directions given to him. This, however, was to prove wrong, a number of passengers offered to help direct, but he wasn't having any of it, as we went over the same roundabout for the 3rd time. It took best part of 30mins to get out of Swindon on a Sunday morning.
 

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,228
My experience of FTS bus coordination is anything but good. I often (when discussing these things) tell the tale of how they gridlocked Gatwick Airport South Terminal and almost caused half the airport to shut down with overcrowding issues when they were running buses for FCC. On the other hand, they do seem to have much better luck in resourcing actual buses compared to some competitors.
The problem with FTS is that they do the bus schedules rather than letting the lead bus operator do them. My experience on SWR is that these schedules are often completely unrealistic, resulting in missed connections.
 

David57

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
279
Location
Rural Northamptonshire.
I did a few turns as a Driver, and as a controller on occasions on RRB work, not mentioning the TOC, but the amount of times we were 'left on our own' to sort things out ....
I did work (under contract) for Frazer Eagle before their demise, I thought that they fair fairly organised.........
 

swanhill41

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2016
Messages
253
Location
Fleetwood
As an ex Fraser Eagle employee from 2004 to its end in 2008,I can add something to the conversation...But since I left the RRB business in 2010,the facts of the game have changed....In effect there no 3rd party RRB companies as I think as far as I know all RR operations are done by the TOC's...The longest established operator is First operating from near Burnley and was set up by ex Fraser Eagle people....This means South West Trains,GWR,TPE and I presume Avanti will all be using the company.I found them well organised with in the main good staff.....What needs to be pointed out is there are two forms of RR...First the pre planned work...Schedules for buses etc planned months before.....The one's that cause the problems is the shout....That is where there has been an accident or whatever,line closed for a while....This means there was no schedule and it becomes a genuine seat of your pants job....Drivers hours,destinations,load factors etc etc ..To put it politely organised chaos,and this where the other area of contention creeps in....Quality of staff....They are in the main people like myself semi retired at the time,but with knowledge of rail lines and able to think on your feet...But the problem is being able to control what is a sudden surge of people,removed from their comfortable train...A recipe for mayhem...Can talk more but will add two points....The job is not at times the easiest to do successfully...And yes Preston was my home station on WCML,and how they operate now on RRB with buildings being built on car park I don't know....Enjoyed it as worked WCML Carlisle to Northampton,ECML Peterborough to Newcastle and a lot in between...Too old to do it now.!!
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,721
Location
Hope Valley
Not CAN complain but MUST complain. Every time. Silence denotes assent and TOCs will take the lack of a complaint as an indication of satisfaction!
Completely agree with this. The only way that things can be improved is if there is a comprehensive understanding of what and where things are going wrong. Hence my suggestion up thread of 'Tweet the co-ordinator'. If, after every instance of RRBs, there was a comprehensive list of insufficient buses, passenger loaded onto wrong bus, missed connections, drivers delaying departure as they took essential rest breaks, buses 'vanishing' or taking bizarre routes, etc. then TOCs would be able to review their own processes (e.g. announcements or procurement) or the suppliers' actions.

This sort of thing is parallel with my long term support of Delay Attribution - probably corporate BR's last great achievement. We always knew that loads of trains were delayed and cancelled but never really knew quite why until it came along.

I can personally testify to some absolute carnage on RRBs back in BR days, both for pre-planned and emergency situations. My very first experience of 'co-ordinating' buses for an engineering job was when I was a fairly new Traffic Manager somewhere in the North West. The phone rang one Friday afternoon with the news that I was being rostered for a 12-hour shift the following day for a junction renewal job. Owing to some ghastly process breakdown no buses had been ordered and no posters or leaflets produced. "But don't worry, we're sending you the stuff in a despatch bag this evening."

I booked on the following morning when, rather strangely, a normal service was running before being culled at lunchtime as the possession began. Hence many passengers had booked tickets for day trips oblivious of what was to come. I had to dash round a dozen stations in the yellow BR van sticking up posters on which the ink had scarcely dried.

The bus schedules had been cobbled together out of thin air and I was soon to discover that they involved some vehicles teleporting instantly between the three terminal points and other exciting breakneck schedules of as little as eight minutes for complex journeys that would take up to an hour by road. There was no allowance for bus driver rest breaks. Nor were there sufficient seats to accommodate the number of blissfully ignorant returning passengers who suddenly found themselves turfed off trains at the interchange points.

Fortunately the bus drivers were remarkably co-operative in turning a blind eye to normal rules. I counted thirty passengers standing upstairs on one double-decker! The yellow BR van came into its own with mopping up the waifs and strays. Seven people could be wedged in the back, I discovered.

Monday's despatch bag contained a fizzing letter from the Area Manger's office noting that there had been numerous complaints about the 'arrangements' and execution, asking ME to explain myself. In a particularly neat twist I was advised that I was being considered for formal discipline for the heinous offence of buying a packet of drawing pins from booking office cash to put the posters up.

This experience stayed with me throughout my career and in later years, as a Service Group Manager involved with pre-planning major blockades, I went to great lengths to think through the bus arrangements and often went out to 'mystery shop' early on so that things could be tweaked if necessary.

Even with personal supervision things could still go spectacularly wrong. During the Tall Ships Race at Chatham in July 1985 there was a massive third rail power failure through the Medway Towns just before the evening rush hour began. I rang Control from Rochester. What were the chances of local bus provision, I was asked. Well the entire street pattern from Rochester through Chatham was closed for a huge carnival and not a road vehicle of any description could move in the area. No Medway Tunnel in those days. Ten-Thousand passengers had a very long evening on stalled trains.
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,068
An interesting account of your personal experiences.
Have you ever thought of writing your memoirs?
 

Ian Hardy

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
462
One of the problems for planned RRBs is that the TOCs usually hire the cheapest buses / coaches they can which means that they are not always local to where the RRBs are running (I once caught an RRB from Weybridge to Surbiton on a bus from Dorset). Some of the bus drivers do not know the routes they need to take or have not been given notes to follow, or are following a satnav for cars & not large vehicles and end up going down some very unsuitable roads.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,721
Location
Hope Valley
An interesting account of your personal experiences.
Have you ever thought of writing your memoirs?
Thank you. Perhaps, one day. There are many on this board with some fantastic tales to tell. At least the format and variety of threads gives the chance for a bite-sized chunks approach.
 
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
214
Location
Eccles Signal Box
As an ex Fraser Eagle employee from 2004 to its end in 2008,I can add something to the conversation...But since I left the RRB business in 2010,the facts of the game have changed....In effect there no 3rd party RRB companies as I think as far as I know all RR operations are done by the TOC's...The longest established operator is First operating from near Burnley and was set up by ex Fraser Eagle people....This means South West Trains,GWR,TPE and I presume Avanti will all be using the company.

Apparently Avanti are currently continuing to use Coach Hire Booking, which is part of C-MAC Group who many TOCs use to arrange their train crew taxi movements. I suspect it's only a matter of time before First Travel Solutions take over the contract. Both companies have former Fraser Eagle people on their management teams though.
 

swanhill41

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2016
Messages
253
Location
Fleetwood
Interesting what you say about Coach Hire Bookings...If the contact is who I think it is,was ex Fraser Eagle and was requested by Virgin to take over the running of RR for the company...Knows the job inside out and has good contacts with good coach companies..Just googled G-MAC Group....Not been in business 10 years,but just read details of what they do....Its based in Accy/Accrington....Long live Fraser Eagle....Recognised some of their non RR stuff and that is part of what they did,although I believe they departed the group as they went towards insolvency...I remember at the time this happening...
 
Last edited:

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
3,389
Location
Calder Valley
Apparently Avanti are currently continuing to use Coach Hire Booking, which is part of C-MAC Group who many TOCs use to arrange their train crew taxi movements. I suspect it's only a matter of time before First Travel Solutions take over the contract. Both companies have former Fraser Eagle people on their management teams though.
It's now FTS.
Sam
 
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
214
Location
Eccles Signal Box
Sorry, I was just shortening First travel Solutions down to FTS, but they have changed over to FTS now.
Sam

Ok. I was talking to a couple of FTS managers earlier in the week who were coordinating for TPE and they said the Avanti contact was still C-MAC. Not that I'm suggesting that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing of course...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top