Got stopped today for booking a train ticket, but only for the first stop so It is cheaper

[trainholder123]

There was unexpected checks today at New Street Station. I got stopped for using a 16-17 railcard (which I don’t have) and only getting a ticket to the first stop of my journey. This obviously saved me money, well the thing is it saves me around £1.50, pretty bad mistake. I have been doing this since the beginning of this year, and got caught today. I am really worried and can’t even go to sleep as I think I will go to jail, I have seen people settle similar situations with an out of court fine, I’m hoping this happens. Any advice, I will get an email from them (I’m guessing West Midlands Railway) in six weeks. Also my account has some refunds on it as well, but it an old account nearly has for a year. Not sure if that’s significant as they said my account will be reviewed.

 

[skyhigh]

You will not go to prison for this.

 

[John R]

If you've been doing this for a year, any settlement that you are offered (which provided you engage with them when written to is very likely) could be very expensive. Where have you been travelling from, and how many times do you think you have done this (you can check on your online account - WMT almost certainly will)?

 

[ikcdab]

You won't be going to jail. That isn't an option. There are two possible options
1. The settlement where you pay the outstanding fares at the anytime rate plus an admin fee
2. They prosecute you, you get a criminal conviction plus a heavier fine.
You just need to wait for the letter then come back here when it arrives.

 

[trainholder123]

If you've been doing this for a year, any settlement that you are offered (which provided you engage with them when written to is very likely) could be very expensive. Where have you been travelling from, and how many times do you think you have done this (you can check on your online account - WMT almost certainly will)?

I paid £1.75, I should have paid £2.50. So I have been saving myself £0.75 per journey. Pretty stupid thinking about it I know. The stop I got off at was two stops after the first one, so I still got the same train but just paid for one stop. I have been doing this around 2 times a week for a year. Not every week as sometimes I have been on holiday or not travelling. Instead of using the 16-17 saver, before I used a Jobcentre plus railcard. Still cost the same. I have done it 34 times, so saved myself £25.50. Looking at this I am pretty annoyed as it was clearly not worth it. I also have 28 refunds on the account

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

You won't be going to jail. That isn't an option. There are two possible options
1. The settlement where you pay the outstanding fares at the anytime rate plus an admin fee
2. They prosecute you, you get a criminal conviction plus a heavier fine.
You just need to wait for the letter then come back here when it arrives.

Does that mean I get a criminal record, if so could I be fired from my job and my university course.

 

[Gloster]

(Did you have a valid Job Centre card on the occasions that you used it?) Were the refunds genuinely from occasions when you did not travel or were they when you did travel but thought that the ticket had not been checked?

Ignore the first sentence in brackets: I have no idea why I wrote this (probably my failing brain getting scrambled) and it is irrelevant. Unfortunately I don’t know how to cross out something.

 

[trainholder123]

Did you have a valid Job Centre card on the occasions that you used it? Were the refunds genuinely from occasions when you did not travel or were they when you did travel but thought that the ticket had not been checked?

I never owned a job centre plus card. Honestly speaking, some refunds we because I couldn’t travel and some were because no one scanned the ticket. But they wouldn’t know this would they as the refunds were processed?

 

[tram21]

Did you have a valid Job Centre card on the occasions that you used it? Were the refunds genuinely from occasions when you did not travel or were they when you did travel but thought that the ticket had not been checked?

The OP didn't mention Job Centre, just 16-17 saver??

 

[trainholder123]

The OP didn't mention Job Centre, just 16-17 saver??

I used both in the past

 

[tram21]

I used both in the past

Apologies, i didn't see the second post, ignore me!

You should hopefully be able to get this resolved out of court. All you can do now is await a letter, and people will be able to assist you then.

 

[trainholder123]

Apologies, i didn't see the second post, ignore me!

You should hopefully be able to get this resolved out of court. All you can do now is await a letter, and people will be able to assist you then.

Thank you, any estimate on what the fine could be

 

[John R]

I paid £1.75, I should have paid £2.50. So I have been saving myself £0.75 per journey. Pretty stupid thinking about it I know. The stop I got off at was two stops after the first one, so I still got the same train but just paid for one stop. I have been doing this around 2 times a week for a year. Not every week as sometimes I have been on holiday or not travelling. Instead of using the 16-17 saver, before I used a Jobcentre plus railcard. Still cost the same. I have done it 34 times, so saved myself £25.50. Looking at this I am pretty annoyed as it was clearly not worth it. I also have 28 refunds on the account

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==


Does that mean I get a criminal record, if so could I be fired from my job and my university course.

OK, add an admin fee of maybe £150 and this isn't going to bankrupt you. You will likely have to pay the full fare again, not just the amount you didn't pay, but it still won't be a substantial sum.

If you get a settlement offer (most likely) then provided you pay it promptly you will avoid prosecution and not get a criminal record.

 

[trainholder123]

OK, add an admin fee of maybe £150 and this isn't going to bankrupt you. You will likely have to pay the full fare again, not just the amount you didn't pay, but it still won't be a substantial sum.

If you get a settlement offer (most likely) then provided you pay it promptly you will avoid prosecution and not get a criminal record.

What is a settlement offer, that means I have to go to court. Is there a high chance of that happening and fine will be all the £2.50s + £150. What about the refunds?

 

[tram21]

What is a settlement offer, that means I have to go to court. Is there a high chance of that happening and fine will be all the £2.50s + £150. What about the refunds?

No, settlement is an out-of-court settlement, where WMR will agree a sum you will pay to avoid them taking you to court, which is costly and a lot of hassle for the TOC.

 

[trainholder123]

No, settlement is an out-of-court settlement, where WMR will agree a sum you will pay to avoid them taking you to court, which is costly and a lot of hassle for the TOC.

What is TOC?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Many people would argue that someone who evades their rail fares over a long period time should be prosecuted int he Magistrates Court. Thankfully for you the case is being dealt with by West Midlands Trains who are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

If the train company decided to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court then you would either plead guilty or be found guilty (there really isn't a realistic prospect of being found not guilty). You wouldn't go to prison but you would need to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally reduced by third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fime
- Compensation for the fare avoided
- A contribution towards WMT's court costs

In addition you would have a criminal conviction, which although minor in the scheme of things could cause issues for you.

Alternatively, if you're offered an out of court settlement you would need to pay the cost of all the fares avoided, normally at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you would need to pay an admin fee, typically £175 with WMT. Note that although an out of court settlement might feel like a fine technically it isn't - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction.

If you are offered, and pay, an out of court settlement then that is the end of the matter. You won't have to go to court and you won't have a criminal record.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is TOC?

Train Operating Company.

 

[trainholder123]

Welcome to the forum!

Many people would argue that someone who evades their rail fares over a long period time should be prosecuted int he Magistrates Court. Thankfully for you the case is being dealt with by West Midlands Trains who are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

If the train company decided to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court then you would either plead guilty or be found guilty (there really isn't a realistic prospect of being found not guilty). You wouldn't go to prison but you would need to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally reduced by third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fime
- Compensation for the fare avoided
- A contribution towards WMT's court costs

In addition you would have a criminal conviction, which although minor in the scheme of things could cause issues for you.

Alternatively, if you're offered an out of court settlement you would need to pay the cost of all the fares avoided, normally at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you would need to pay an admin fee, typically £175 with WMT. Note that although an out of court settlement might feel like a fine technically it isn't - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction.

If you are offered, and pay, an out of court settlement then that is the end of the matter. You won't have to go to court and you won't have a criminal record.

Is there a high chance of prosecution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum!

Many people would argue that someone who evades their rail fares over a long period time should be prosecuted int he Magistrates Court. Thankfully for you the case is being dealt with by West Midlands Trains who are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

If the train company decided to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court then you would either plead guilty or be found guilty (there really isn't a realistic prospect of being found not guilty). You wouldn't go to prison but you would need to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally reduced by third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fime
- Compensation for the fare avoided
- A contribution towards WMT's court costs

In addition you would have a criminal conviction, which although minor in the scheme of things could cause issues for you.

Alternatively, if you're offered an out of court settlement you would need to pay the cost of all the fares avoided, normally at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you would need to pay an admin fee, typically £175 with WMT. Note that although an out of court settlement might feel like a fine technically it isn't - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction.

If you are offered, and pay, an out of court settlement then that is the end of the matter. You won't have to go to court and you won't have a criminal record.

You said a fine which is a thirds of my income. So if I made 10K I pay 3.3K?

 

[Hadders]

Is there a high chance of prosecution?

I'd say it's unlikely as long as you co-operate with them.

You said a fine which is a thirds of my income. Su if I made 10K I pay 3.3K?

The fine is discounted by a third. What this meams is that if the court decides to impose a find of £600 as a punishment they would reduce it to £400 if you pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity.

Note that out of court settlements do not get reduced.

 

[trainholder123]

I'd say it's unlikely as long as you co-operate with them.


The fine is discounted by a third. What this meams is that if the court decides to impose a find of £600 as a punishment they would reduce it to £400 if you pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity.

Note that out of court settlements do not get reduced.

Ok, I will keep you updated. Thank you for the help

 

[reb0118]

Is there a high chance of prosecution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==


You said a fine which is a thirds of my income. Su if I made 10K I pay 3.3K?

There is a low-ish chance of prosecution - as long as you cooperate with the TOC, but if you are prosecuted then a high chance of conviction.

Basically the TOC wants the money that you are due them, and wants it via the easiest & cheapest manner. The greater the fare avoidance the greater the requirement to recoup that amount. You pay & the problem goes away.

However, don't do it again as some persistent offenders certainly do get prosecuted.

 

[trainholder123]

There is a low-ish chance of prosecution - as long as you cooperate with the TOC, but if you are prosecuted then a high chance of conviction.

Basically the TOC wants the money that you are due them, and wants it via the easiest & cheapest manner. The greater the fare avoidance the greater the requirement to recoup that amount. You pay & the problem goes away.

However, don't do it again as some persistent offenders certainly do get prosecuted.

Understood. When they email and I reply back, should I copy and paste someone else’s email from this forum which has been previously used, and re word it to fit me?

 

[Hadders]

When they email and I reply back, should I copy and paste someone else’s email from this forum which has been previously used, and re word it to fit me?

I'd recommend a short, concise letter. There are many good examples (and some not so good ones!) in this section fo the forum.

Pop a draft of what you porpose to send in this thread and we can proof read it for you.

 

[trainholder123]

I'd recommend a short, concise letter. There are many good examples (and some not so good ones!) in this section fo the forum.

Pop a draft of what you porpose to send in this thread and we can proof read it for you.

Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

I'd recommend a short, concise letter. There are many good examples (and some not so good ones!) in this section fo the forum.

Pop a draft of what you porpose to send in this thread and we can proof read it for you.

Is there usually a time limit to reply back

 

[Haywain]

You said a fine which is a thirds of my income. So if I made 10K I pay 3.3K?

A fine would be based on your weekly income and would not be for an amount in the thousands of pounds. The maximum possible fine is £1000 but that would be discounted by a third for an early guilty plea, so that brings it down to £660 - at the most. Having said all that your focus must be on achieving an out of court settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there usually a time limit to reply back

Yes. Usually 14 days from the date on the letter they send you. Not from the date you receive the letter. It s vital you watch for their letter, and respond to it asap. Otherwise they will certainly move to the prosecution at court stage without further letters to you.

You should send your response by tracked post from a post office so you can check that it has been delivered.

 

[trainholder123]

Yes. Usually 14 days from the date on the letter they send you. Not from the date you receive the letter. It s vital you watch for their letter, and respond to it asap. Otherwise they will certainly move to the prosecution at court stage without further letters to you.

You should send your response by tracked post from a post office so you can check that it has been delivered.

The guy said to me that it will most likely be emailed. He didn’t take my email but I’m guessing then can see it from my booking reference, he took a picture of my e ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you look at other threads involving west mids you will probably see examples of the typical letters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

The guy said to me that it will most likely be emailed. He didn’t take my email but I’m guessing then can see it from my booking reference, he took a picture of my e ticket.

Ok. Could be either then, post or e mail. Check spam regularly too

 

[trainholder123]

If you look at other threads involving west mids you will probably see examples of the typical letters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==


Ok. Could be either then, post or e mail. Check spam regularly too

Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==

Forgot to mention that the refunds are not on West Midland Railway Trains, they are from Avanti West Coast.

 

[WesternLancer]

Forgot to mention that the refunds are not on West Midland Railway Trains, they are from Avanti West Coast.

They may look into it - all the companies act for each other when it comes to preventing ticket evasion and illegitimate refund claims and have access to the ticket retailing systems wherever you bought from, for the purposes of the prevention of crime.

Once you have been stopped and they have detected something they will usually now investigate more widely as misuse of railcards is often not detected on the first occasion so they will probably dig deeper - and you will have left digital fingerprints for what you have done that are easy to trace: - 2 different railcard discounts that you are not entitled to, refunds that you should not have claimed, all presumably done on line where it can be traced.

I just say this so you can prepare for what might happen.

If there are things you can do to legitimately reduce your travel costs (eg buy a railcard you are actually entitled to use, buy a season ticket or flexi season ticket for your travel) this will help you tell them things you have done to 'change your ways' - this will help reduce the risk of prosecution.