Got caught using wrong Railcard

[honey113]

Got caught recently by Chiltern through using the Trainline app with a valid Network Railcard but tickets bought under “26-30”. This has been ongoing for a few months where I thought that my old railcard was still valid (there was no prompt to say otherwise) and most recent purchases I had it selected under the wrong railcard. I know I am guilty, but I have learned from this and won’t be making the same mistake again.

In the best case scenario like to pay any fines that might incur - but I understand that Chiltern will not take this lightly. There are a few questions I’d like to ask and I hope someone is able to answer:

1.) I bought my 26-30 railcard through Trainline on Jul22, in which I would have still been 30, and it was valid until Jul23. I managed to find my bank transaction showing this, but in the app there’s no way of proving that this purchase was for that railcard. Would anyone know how I could prove this when the letter comes through? (As they would likely assume that I was using the wrong railcard then too, unless their system is that advanced they could tell)

2.) I travel once or rarely twice a week and worked out to have used the wrong railcard (fare evasion) potentially totalling around ~30 times (which I worked out to be ~2400 worth at time of purchase + on full fare) over the past 8 months. Over this period of time, ticket prices have gone up. If I was offered to settle the amount - would those settlements be at today’s full fare price or when I purchased the tickets?

3.) Given the above, do you think it would be advisable to get a solicitor? It is a very large sum of money, but I want to avoid any convictions if possible as this would likely cost me my job. (I work in finance)

The ticket officer scanned my Trainline ticket barcode and looked at my DL, stating that they will send me a letter. The waiting is causing me lots of anxiety, I can’t stop thinking about it - but I’d appreciate if anyone could guide me in the right direction and hopefully to pay the settlement rather than having to go to court. Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I think a crucial thing here is the times you travel. Both the 26-30 and Network Railcard give a 34% discount but the Network Railcard:

Is not valid before 10am on weekdays - the 26-30 can be used anytime subject to a minimum discoiunted fare of £12 on weekdays before 10am
The Network Railcard has a £13 minimum discounted fare at all times on weekdays
It should be possible to obtain details of the 26-30 railcard you purchased in July 2022 from your Trainline purchase history. The issue you are going to have is tickets purchased after July 2023 where you held a Network Railcard but applied a 26-30 discount you weren't entitled to. If the discount ticket was used to travel at a time the Network Rqilcard wasn't valid then I could see this being more of an issue for you.

Chiltern are one of the more 'robust' train companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing but they do often offer a settlement to people who haven't come to their attention before, and who co-operate with their investigation. The best thing for now is to wait for Chiltern to contact you (they often use a company called Transport Investigations Limited for cases like this). When the letter comes post a redacted copy of it in this thread and we will be able to advise on how to reply.

It's your choice whether to use a solicitor. Personally I would wait to see what Chiltern say first. A solicitor won't be cheap although they can often fast track a case which can be helpful if Chiltern do not decide to offer a settlement.

 

[honey113]

Welcome to the forum!

I think a crucial thing here is the times you travel. Both the 26-30 and Network Railcard give a 34% discount but the Network Railcard:

Is not valid before 10am on weekdays - the 26-30 can be used anytime subject to a minimum discoiunted fare of £12 on weekdays before 10am
The Network Railcard has a £13 minimum discounted fare at all times on weekdays
It should be possible to obtain details of the 26-30 railcard you purchased in July 2022 from your Trainline purchase history. The issue you are going to have is tickets purchased after July 2023 where you held a Network Railcard but applied a 26-30 discount you weren't entitled to. If the discount ticket was used to travel at a time the Network Rqilcard wasn't valid then I could see this being more of an issue for you.

Chiltern are one of the more 'robust' train companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing but they do often offer a settlement to people who haven't come to their attention before, and who co-operate with their investigation. The best thing for now is to wait for Chiltern to contact you (they often use a company called Transport Investigations Limited for cases like this). When the letter comes post a redacted copy of it in this thread and we will be able to advise on how to reply.

It's your choice whether to use a solicitor. Personally I would wait to see what Chiltern say first. A solicitor won't be cheap although they can often fast track a case which can be helpful if Chiltern do decide to offer a settlement.

I travel in the very early mornings each day (before 10am) but return from work in the evening (I usually buy the anytime return ticket).

Not really sure if that would make it any less worse, but I literally had/have no idea you couldn’t use the railcard before 10am. I always thought that the discount was 33% off on both railcards, so I never thought too much of it…

I just don’t understand why an app which has been available for quite a while can’t pick up and spot that the railcards are invalid or expired

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A solicitor won't be cheap although they can often fast track a case which can be helpful if Chiltern do decide not to offer a settlement.

Apologies if I've got this wrong, but I think that @Hadders may have missed a word out, which I have added to the above.

 

[Hadders]

I travel in the very early mornings each day (before 10am) but return from work in the evening (I usually buy the anytime return ticket).

Not really sure if that would make it any less worse, but I literally had/have no idea you couldn’t use the railcard before 10am. I always thought that the discount was 33% off on both railcards, so I never thought too much of it…

I just don’t understand why an app which has been available for quite a while can’t pick up and spot that the railcards are invalid or expired

The terms and conditions of the Network Railcard are clear that it cannot be used before 10am on weekdays. Also, a journey planner won't give a discount at an invalid time so I suspect that when you're buying your tickets you're selecting a journey after 10am to get the app to sell you the cheaper ticket.

We do see the issue of apps applying railcard discounts mentioned quite frequently on here. The problem is you can buy a railcard from anywhere - I use a physical railcard purchased from a station so my online purchasing app (not Trainline btw) won't know when my railcard expires.

I think the best thing now is to wait for the letter and proceed from there.

Apologies if I've got this wrong, but I think that @Hadders may have missed a word out, which I have added to the above.

Thanks. I've amended my post.

 

[WesternLancer]

I travel in the very early mornings each day (before 10am) but return from work in the evening (I usually buy the anytime return ticket).

Not really sure if that would make it any less worse, but I literally had/have no idea you couldn’t use the railcard before 10am. I always thought that the discount was 33% off on both railcards, so I never thought too much of it…

It's not heavily flagged on the relevant web page (not as clear as the £13 minimum fare for example)

Network Railcard | London and South East | - Network Railcard

Railcards - Save up to a third on leisure travel within London and the South East. Only £35 a year - Buy today.

www.network-railcard.co.uk

but it's here under a drop down:

Can I use my Network Railcard at any time of day?​

You can buy Network Railcard discounted tickets for travel any time on weekends and public holidays or from 10:00am Monday to Friday. You may be able to start your journey a little earlier than 10:00am, see the time restriction easements section for details or check at your local station.
The 10:00am Monday to Friday time restriction applies to all types of tickets.

The risk is that they will think / argue that you 'deliberately' selected the other Railcard to circumvent this rule when buying tickets. It will be important for you to convince them otherwise. It's quite frustrating that all the different Railcards seem to have slightly different terms of use which easily confuses.

I just don’t understand why an app which has been available for quite a while can’t pick up and spot that the railcards are invalid or expired

Yes, It's a cause of regular problems on this forum for people and seems frustrating to say the least.

 

[honey113]

I’m using the Trainline app which when I selected it only shows the following:

Network card:

• Covers London and the South East
• Up to three adults save ⅓ on eligible fares
• Up to 4 children save 60%

16-25 card:

• Great for solo travel
• Adults save ⅓ on eligible fares
• Ideal card for young professionals
• Buy before your 31st birthday to use for a whole year

For me I don’t think that’s it’s very clear at all it should have at least stated the 10am time or have a link for us to click in (which would lead us to the difference in T&Cs)… I just feel like it’s quite misleading especially where the wordings are so similar. I don’t think many people would go into look for the finer terms and conditions on another website

 

[John R]

I’m using the Trainline app which when I selected it only shows the following:

Network card:

• Covers London and the South East
• Up to three adults save ⅓ on eligible fares
• Up to 4 children save 60%

For me I don’t think that’s it’s very clear at all it should have at least stated the 10am time or have a link for us to click in (which would lead us to the difference in T&Cs)… I just feel like it’s quite misleading especially where the wordings are so similar. I don’t think many people would go into look for the finer terms and conditions on another website

However, it shouldn’t let you choose that railcard for a train departing before 10am. Can you confirm what trains you were selecting, as if you selected trains with a departure time before 10am you may have a stronger case.

 

[WesternLancer]

16-25 card:

• Great for solo travel
• Adults save ⅓ on eligible fares
• Ideal card for young professionals
• Buy before your 31st birthday to use for a whole year

For me I don’t think that’s it’s very clear at all it should have at least stated the 10am time or have a link for us to click in (which would lead us to the difference in T&Cs)… I just feel like it’s quite misleading especially where the wordings are so similar. I don’t think many people would go into look for the finer terms and conditions on another website

It's certainly not clear if the 16-25 Railcard text you quoted suggests you can buy it before your 31st birthday - this looks possibly garbled with the 26-30 Railcard key points.

But more generally the rail industry thinks people (wants people) to buy tickets following a process that specifies a particular train they intend to travel on (even though tickets that allow travel on any train are sold) - when selecting a train at the relevant time, or a fare that falls below the 'minimum fare', the Railcard discount won't be applied. If you are buying 'Anytime' tickets you may not pay attention to what train you select during the purchase process in the belief you can use the ticket at anytime of day, but it's the Railcard that you can't use at anytime of day... so the ticket with the Railcard discount applied then can't be used at anytime. Confusing? Of course.

If Trainline has pit you in this position by misleading you, at least you could withdraw future custom from them as there are plenty of other retailers, not least the train companies you are intending to use to travel with. I'd certainly complain to Trainline but they must be aware of this issue given how often it seems to crop up.

Anyway - you will get help here on how best to respond when / if they formally write to you about the incident.

 

[honey113]

However, it shouldn’t let you choose that railcard for a train departing before 10am. Can you confirm what trains you were selecting, as if you selected trains with a departure time before 10am you may have a stronger case.

It’s just since Feb24 where I started using the Network card. I selected trains for 6am-7am.

Either way there were still quite a handful of tickets where I did forget that my 26-30 railcard had expired so I really don’t have an excuse for this (Jul23-Feb24) and I think it doesn’t really help in my case … just wish there were prompts or warnings beforehand and that they may be more forgiving to me if I explain my situation

 

[Haywain]

It’s just since Feb24 where I started using the Network card. I selected trains for 6am-7am.

But you chose those trains with a 26-30 railcard selected, didn't you?

 

[honey113]

But you chose those trains with a 26-30 railcard selected, didn't you?

Yes I did but with the Network Card (This was only from Feb24).

I genuinely forgot that my railcard had expired (Jul23-Feb24) and continued to buy the discounted tickets.

The problem is my tickets cost £77 per journey, so the amount that I need to pay (If Im given the chance to pay a settlement would be huge)… even though I’m only travelling once a week. I was paying something like £51 (so I’ve been essentially paying £26 less per ticket x 28 or so tickets).

I am thinking to write a letter of complaint to Trainline for the above matters on what I think is quite misleading (most likely wouldn’t impact my case) but I hope by starting to travel using the right card would at least show that I acknowledge my misjudgment… I’m actually so anxious and stressed about the whole situation

 

[Haywain]

Yes I did but with the Network Card (This was only from Feb24).

I don't know what this means. Whether you were in possession of a Network Railcard is really neither here nor there, what matters is how you bought the tickets and it appears that the only way you could buy the discounted tickets was with the 26-30 railcard selected, even though you did not possess that railcard.

 

[honey113]

I don't know what this means. Whether you were in possession of a Network Railcard is really neither here nor there, what matters is how you bought the tickets and it appears that the only way you could buy the discounted tickets was with the 26-30 railcard selected, even though you did not possess that railcard.

So basically my 26-30 card expired on Jul23. I did not realise and continued to buy tickets at the 26-30 rate. I then went and bought a network card in Feb24 but I did not go in to change the settings when purchasing the ticket, so only until this week (when I was caught) and now I realise that there is such a big difference between the two railcards.

 

[Haywain]

So basically my 26-30 card expired on Jul23. I did not realise and continued to buy tickets at the 26-30 rate. I then went and bought a network card in Feb24 but I did not go in to change the settings when purchasing the ticket, so only until this week (when I was caught) and now I realise that there is such a big difference between the two railcards.

So, if you had changed the railcard in the app at the time you purchased a Network Railcard you would have found you were being offered the correct fares, rather than the discounted fares.

 

[honey113]

So, if you had changed the railcard in the app at the time you purchased a Network Railcard you would have found you were being offered the correct fares, rather than the discounted fares.

Yes that is correct. But I did not think too much of it because from the app and as stated above I thought that the discounts were the same (when you try to buy from the app they both say up to 33% discount on eligible fares) - it just wasn’t clear for me. I overlooked it and made the mistakes until I was caught out this week.

 

[Haywain]

Yes that is correct. But I did not think too much of it because from the app and as stated above I thought that the discounts were the same (when you try to buy from the app they both say up to 33% discount on eligible fares) - it just wasn’t clear for me. I overlooked it and made the mistakes until I was caught out this week.

While it is understandable to think there may not be a significant difference in the benefits, you really have to accept that you have the responsibility to change the railcard type in the app and doing so would have revealed the differences.

 

[honey113]

While it is understandable to think there may not be a significant difference in the benefits, you really have to accept that you have the responsibility to change the railcard type in the app and doing so would have revealed the differences.

I know that I’m in the wrong here. I just wonder if it’s very likely to go to court… I’d literally do anything to not get a criminal conviction. Are cases like mine where an out of court settlement has been agreed upon quite rare?

 

[Hadders]

Out of court settlements are very common, as long as you co-operate with the rail company.

 

[honey113]

Out of court settlements are very common, as long as you co-operate with the rail company.

Even a case as significant as mine? There’s like potentially 30 trips where each trip would have cost £77 at today’s price if paid full fare, maybe a tad bit more if singles. It’s not like I totally paid nothing and tried to avoid paying for a ticket, I still paid quite a large amount each time but just not at the correct amount..

But anyway still waiting for the letter, so I will post on here as soon as I get it

 

[WesternLancer]

I’d literally do anything to not get a criminal conviction. Are cases like mine where an out of court settlement has been agreed upon quite rare?

Pretty strong chance you can get an out of court settlement - but I'd not suggest to Chiltern you would literally do anything....

You need to convince them that you are not a deliberate fare evader.

One thing you can do whilst you wait to hear from them - but don't post it here - is check all your records of ticket buying where possible and compile a clear list of the dates and journeys where the wrong Railcard / or where there was no Railcard but the ticket purchase included one, was applied to the purchase in error and the cost consequences of this in terms of wrong discount. That way you will have a clear list to use if that become a useful thing to have when in communication with the railway. Do not share it until / and if required to do so however.

 

[Fermiboson]

Out of court settlements we’ve seen on this forum have reached amounts surpassing £2k. If you cooperate, the TOC gets more money from the out of court settlement than from a court fine, so they will generally prefer to offer such.

In addition to the above, it may be wise to start saving. OOC settlements are generally expected to be paid within 2 or 3 weeks, and the amount you need to pay would be calculated with the undiscounted anytime singles for every leg of the journey you made with an invalid ticket, plus upwards of £150 administrative fee, without regard for any fares you have already paid. IIRC most Chiltern singles are much more than half of the return, so it could get quite expensive.

 

[WesternLancer]

Even a case as significant as mine? There’s like potentially 30 trips where each trip would have cost £77 at today’s price if paid full fare, maybe a tad bit more if singles. It’s not like I totally paid nothing and tried to avoid paying for a ticket, I still paid quite a large amount each time but just not at the correct amount..

But anyway still waiting for the letter, so I will post on here as soon as I get it

Yes, Railway companies settle in cases much more serious than yours as illustrated by some of the examples on this forum.

In general terms they seem to need to be convinced that
- you are not a deliberate fare evader (tho they even settle with them on many cases it seems)
- you have learned from what went wrong / your mistake
- you won't do it again either by mistake or deliberately (eg in your case you can take steps to prevent the problem happening such as set an alert for expired Railcard dates in your diary, and that is something you can then tell them you have done).

 

[Hadders]

Even a case as significant as mine? There’s like potentially 30 trips where each trip would have cost £77 at today’s price if paid full fare, maybe a tad bit more if singles. It’s not like I totally paid nothing and tried to avoid paying for a ticket, I still paid quite a large amount each time but just not at the correct amount..

But anyway still waiting for the letter, so I will post on here as soon as I get it

There have been cases of settlements for very significant sums in the past.

I agree with the what @WesternLancer has said above. When the letter does come it will use quite threatening language. Try not to worry too much about that, the key thing is how you respond.

 

[honey113]

Hey guys, hope you are all well. So the letter did come in with a delay as well (was dated 18th but only came on 27th).

“The Chiltern letter says:
Notice of intended prosecution:
We are in receipt of a report that advises that on “xxxxx date” a person given your name and address details was spoken to by railway revenue protection staff in connection with a journey between xxxx -> xxxx.

The purpose of this letter is to advise you of the report and of any action that may follow from it and to provide you with the opportunity to inform us of any mitigation that you may wish to be considered. This can be sent to the address xxxxx.

The report of this incident indicates that in the absence of a satisfactory explanation, evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with the current legislation. These considerations may include wether any charge should allege and offence against the railway byepass laws 2005 or regulation of railways act 1889.

You are therefore advised to seek out independent legal advice from a solicitor trained in criminal law and who is registered with the law society. It could also be an advantage if they have knowledge of rail fare law, as this is a specialised area.

The company does consider this a serious matter, and if we do not hear from you within 14 days of the date of this letter this matter will be passed to our prosecuting authority with a view to obtaining a summons to a magistrate’s court hearing, this may be issued without further reference to you.”

- so basically I only have less than a week to respond as the letter came with delay. I’m not sure if I should find a solicitor in my case, I have made the changes and in the following weeks have used the correct railway discounts. Also I do have a valid ticket that was purchased after the journey on the day of the incident.

Im not entirely sure if I should find a solicitor now and if there is enough time respond, but also how to respond and which solicitor to use (my case details in previous post in this thread). Should I mention the previous times in which the wrong railway card was used or should I not mention this? Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[30907]

Hey guys, hope you are all well. So the letter did come in with a delay as well (was dated 18th but only came on 27th).

- so basically I only have less than a week to respond as the letter came with delay. I’m not sure if I should find a solicitor in my case, I have made the changes and in the following weeks have used the correct railway discounts. Also I do have a valid ticket that was purchased after the journey on the day of the incident.

Im not entirely sure if I should find a solicitor now and if there is enough time respond, but also how to respond and which solicitor to use (my case details in previous post in this thread). Should I mention the previous times in which the wrong railway card was used or should I not mention this? Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Welcome back!

AIUI reading earlier posts you had a 26-30 RC which expired a year ago, you continued to claim the discount, and then bought a Network RC in February but at first forgot to change the details when buying tickets?
You have also been buying discounted tickets but using them in ths early morning when they were not valid..

If I am right, then Chiltern obviously know that you were applying the wrong discount, but they may be more concerned about the second issue.

I would reply promptly along the lines often suggested by @Hadders; normally we would advise against incriminating yourself, but you might want to talk about times (plural) when you have used a discounted ticket when it was not valid.

You must assume that Chiltern also know about your previous history, but I am not sure you need to bring this up (yet!). I suspect their reply will cover this as well.

My suggestion will buy you time to talk to a solicitor if that is the route you want to take.

 

[honey113]

Hey guys,

Just an update - this got settled in the end with the help of Manak Solicitors!

The fee and penalty that I had to pay was very acceptable considering the huge implications it would have had on me. Thanks again for everyone’s help!

 

[Titfield]

Hey guys,

Just an update - this got settled in the end with the help of Manak Solicitors!

The fee and penalty that I had to pay was very acceptable considering the huge implications it would have had on me. Thanks again for everyone’s help!

That is good news. You must be relieved.

Could you please tell us what the solicitors fee was as that helps us inform other people with a similar problem?

 

[honey113]

It was around ~£1.3k (I paid for their priority service and to respond on my behalf for the letter).

They give you a form where you have to fill in all the journeys you’d made and for them to work out a settlement.

I am so relieved and they sorted the matter for me, but it was very quickly resolved as well (was all resolved within a month) and I did not need to do anything except communicate with the solicitor and pay for the fees.

 

[Titfield]

It was around ~£1.3k (I paid for their priority service and to respond on my behalf for the letter).

They give you a form where you have to fill in all the journeys you’d made and for them to work out a settlement.

I am so relieved and they sorted the matter for me, but it was very quickly resolved as well (was all resolved within a month) and I did not need to do anything except communicate with the solicitor and pay for the fees.

Thank you, that will help us give more informed advice in the future.