GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

[r4miii]

I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, but I still don't think that you're completely out of luck here. There's a couple of reasons for this:

- if there's a panel to discuss cases, then that means that there's a possibility that they will find that you can continue on the course. The thing is, if the rule was absolute (so ANY criminal conviction means that you can't be on the course) then there'd be no point in having a panel to discuss it - you don't need to discuss if the answer's always going to be 'no'
- and I don't think that the panel will have considered your case yet. Because if they had, and had turned you down, you would be getting a letter or email saying so, and withdrawing your offer of a place. As far as I can tell, they haven't told you that your offer has been withdrawn so that says to me that you haven't yet been through the process.

We can't guarantee that the university will let you in. But don't just assume that a conviction for fare dodging definitely means that you will be rejected.

I meant they have discussed it and they decided no. So its already been decided. I had to fill a form regarding it from which they decide with the information you have given

 

[notmyrealname]

Remind us if they've put that in writing please?

 

[r4miii]

Remind us if they've put that in writing please?

yes

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i keep being advised to appeal, but how would i appeal? to whom? i have attached the letters above in this thread if anyone can let me know

 

[najaB]

i keep being advised to appeal, but how would i appeal? to whom? i have attached the letters above in this thread if anyone can let me know

I suspect the appeal being referred to is with your prospective educational institution since it does seem beyond the pale that a ticketing offence that doesn't involve any implication of dishonesty is enough to disqualify you from a degree course.

Edited for grammar.

 

[Benjwri]

doesn't involve any implication of dishonesty would disqualify you from a degree course.

On this part, OP you mention a form you had to fill in. Did this just ask for whether you had a conviction, or did it ask for further details and you to explain your case?

I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised by the decision if they gave further details, in that certain universities can be very tetchy about such issues.

 

[WesternLancer]

yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

i keep being advised to appeal, but how would i appeal? to whom? i have attached the letters above in this thread if anyone can let me know

Yes, Appeal the decision to exclude you from the course you wished to study.

 

[r4miii]

I suspect the appeal being referred to is with your prospective educational institution since it does seem beyond the pale that a ticketing offence that doesn't involve any implication of dishonesty is enough to disqualify you from a degree course.

Edited for grammar.

I have been told to appeal to the prosecutor/court

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

I have been told to appeal to the prosecutor/court

So i meant how would i appeal to them. Is it even possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

On this part, OP you mention a form you had to fill in. Did this just ask for whether you had a conviction, or did it ask for further details and you to explain your case?

I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised by the decision if they gave further details, in that certain universities can be very tetchy about such issues.

Yh i sent one of the questions here and i said at the moment i do not have a conviction. They did not ask for further details

 

[WesternLancer]

I have been told to appeal to the prosecutor/court

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==


So i meant how would i appeal to them. Is it even possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==


Yh i sent one of the questions here and i said at the moment i do not have a conviction. They did not ask for further details

Go to the court on the day of your prosecution case and plead your case to the magistrate I suppose.

 

[najaB]

I have been told to appeal to the prosecutor/court

The basis of your appeal being...?

 

[island]

I have been told to appeal to the prosecutor/court

By whom?

 

[notmyrealname]

I'm sure people will say if I'm wrong here.

Is part of the problem here that there are two appeals? One to TfL about the Oyster card issue and one to the university about the effect of a fare evasion conviction on joining the OP's preferred course?

 

[najaB]

Is part of the problem here that there are two appeals? One to TfL about the Oyster card issue and one to the university about the effect of a fare evasion conviction on joining the OP's preferred course?

You are correct that there are two possible appeals, but the first would be to the court after a conviction. Any representation to TfL pre-conviction wouldn't be an appeal, but rather than attempt to negotiate a settlement.

However it would appear that ship has sailed since the OP has already plead guilty by return of their SJP notice. I don't believe that they can withdraw that and attempt to negotiate with TfL.

My earlier question still stands - on what grounds would they appeal the conviction?

 

[r4miii]

You are correct that there are two possible appeals, but the first would be to the court after a conviction. Any representation to TfL pre-conviction wouldn't be an appeal, but rather than attempt to negotiate a settlement.

However it would appear that ship has sailed since the OP has already plead guilty by return of their SJP notice. I don't believe that they can withdraw that and attempt to negotiate with TfL.

My earlier question still stands - on what grounds would they appeal the conviction?

I havent sent off the plea yet, i was just told to see if i can somehow appeal some sort of financial settlement or see if theres any way to avoid a conviction. I have no clue how to word it just what ive been told to try do by citizens advice

 

[najaB]

I havent sent off the plea yet, i was just told to see if i can somehow appeal some sort of financial settlement or see if theres any way to avoid a conviction. I have no clue how to word it just what ive been told to try do by citizens advice

Okay. You're free to try and achieve a settlement with TfL but, as noted in the earlier posts in this thread, they are much less likely to be amenable to settling than some other TOCs, and the fact that you've received a SJPN means that they've already made the decision to charge you. You would need to have a very compelling reason for them to withdraw the case at this point.

That isn't to say that it's impossible - people have been known to arrange a settlement by having a quiet word with the prosecutor on the day of their case being called. But again, it is highly unlikely that you'll be able to get far with TfL, especially where misuse of a discounted Oyster card is concerned.

 

[r4miii]

On the letter i got sent theres the name Abbey Ameen. Do you guys reckon i should email this guy? Id have to think on what to say but im not planning on going into court

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Do you guys recommend going in or not

 

[AlterEgo]

On the letter i got sent theres the name Abbey Ameen. Do you guys reckon i should email this guy?

That is the name associated to all TfL's SJPNs and is not necessarily who has dealt with your case. I am not sure what you want to say to this person that hasn't already been said.

Id have to think on what to say but im not planning on going into court

You don't have anything else to say, I fear. You sent your mitigation, and, like pretty much everyone else who abuses free passes, have found that they do not care much for the excuses, and have been charged with the offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Do you guys recommend going in or not

No. You are guilty of the offence and your interests are likely best served at this point by not saying anything. The vast majority of cases dealt with by SJPN are open and shut cases where the defendant is guilty.

I do not think you understand the process or implications, nor have the life experience to manage speaking on your own behalf in court. You will be sentenced according to fairly prescriptive guidelines anyway.

I am not sure what else I can add; this has been the only realistic outcome for you since the first reply in the thread.

 

[r4miii]

I was told by the university:

‘Students with cautions or criminal convictions may not be able to undertake work or placements, depending on the convictions or cautions in question and as a result may not be able to complete the course, register or practise. It is for this reason that criminal convictions information is requested from applicants at this stage. The university may decline an application where an applicant’s record is deemed unsuitable for admission to pre-registration programmes.’



… to which they did

 

[Haywain]

I was told by the university:

‘Students with cautions or criminal convictions may not be able to undertake work or placements, depending on the convictions or cautions in question and as a result may not be able to complete the course, register or practise. It is for this reason that criminal convictions information is requested from applicants at this stage. The university may decline an application where an applicant’s record is deemed unsuitable for admission to pre-registration programmes.’



… to which they did

But, as yet, you don't have a criminal conviction. Even when you do have, it says "depending on the convictions ... in question", so it is far from black and white.

 

[r4miii]

I was told by the university:

Students with cautions or criminal convictions may not be able to undertake work or placements, depending on the convictions or cautions in question and as a result may not be able to complete the course, register or practise. It is for this reason that criminal convictions information is requested from applicants at this stage. The university may decline an application where an applicant’s record is deemed unsuitable for admission to pre-registration programmes.

 

[Haywain]

I was told by the university:

Students with cautions or criminal convictions may not be able to undertake work or placements, depending on the convictions or cautions in question and as a result may not be able to complete the course, register or practise. It is for this reason that criminal convictions information is requested from applicants at this stage. The university may decline an application where an applicant’s record is deemed unsuitable for admission to pre-registration programmes.

You do not currently have a criminal conviction so none of that can apply to you yet. Did you tell them you have a conviction, and if so what did you tell them you had been convicted for?

 

[r4miii]

You do not currently have a criminal conviction so none of that can apply to you yet. Did you tell them you have a conviction, and if so what did you tell them you had been convicted for?

i selected ‘no’ in the form stating i dont currently have one. And i have told them everything.

 

[Haywain]

And i have told them everything.

Which is...?

 

[notmyrealname]

Their correspondence talks about 'may' rather than 'will" do things.

We don't know what you want to practise as but have you checked the professional institute?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I was told by the university:

‘Students with cautions or criminal convictions may not be able to undertake work or placements, depending on the convictions or cautions in question and as a result may not be able to complete the course, register or practise. It is for this reason that criminal convictions information is requested from applicants at this stage. The university may decline an application where an applicant’s record is deemed unsuitable for admission to pre-registration programmes.’



… to which they did

I know this may be me being slow, but have you actually received a letter or email which says that they have withdrawn your offer of a place?

Another way of asking the same question is 'what does UCAS say?' My understanding is that you should be able to see which (if any) of your applications are still open

If you have received something specifically saying that you are no longer offered a place and/or UCAS shows it as withdrawn, then I am afraid that I agree with you that you do not have a chance of going to that university in September: one way or another you will have to change your plans.

But if you haven't received something in writing, or if what you have says something like 'we will consider your matter once you have been to court' then it's not that everything is over.

 

[r4miii]

Which is...?

as in i have explained the whole misuse situation and reasons behind it and the cirumstances most of which has been said on this thread already

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Their correspondence talks about 'may' rather than 'will" do things.

We don't know what you want to practise as but have you checked the professional institute?

im not sure if i mentioned this in what you replied to as i had to post is a few times for it to actually get posted but this is what they said before telling me i would not be considered if i had the conviction which i will be getting at the time of starting

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

I know this may be me being slow, but have you actually received a letter or email which says that they have withdrawn your offer of a place?

Another way of asking the same question is 'what does UCAS say?' My understanding is that you should be able to see which (if any) of your applications are still open

If you have received something specifically saying that you are no longer offered a place and/or UCAS shows it as withdrawn, then I am afraid that I agree with you that you do not have a chance of going to that university in September: one way or another you will have to change your plans.

But if you haven't received something in writing, or if what you have says something like 'we will consider your matter once you have been to court' then it's not that everything is over.

to answer your first question, yes but in other words they said i wont be considered. but not from ucas, from the university itself.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you show them this thread?

 

[Haywain]

as in i have explained the whole misuse situation and reasons behind it and the cirumstances most of which has been said on this thread already

Well, to be frank, you seem to have shot yourself in the foot. There does not appear to have been any reason to have told them anything until you were convicted but you seem to have convinced them that you are not appropriately trustworthy and therefore provided them with the ammunition. In the circumstances I doubt there really is much that can be done to change their minds.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

to answer your first question, yes but in other words they said i wont be considered. but not from ucas, from the university itself.

So when you look up your application on UCAS it says that you have been refused?

 

[Undiscovered]

Sorry to stick my oar in here but, I would argue, that if you've lost your university place on the mere threat of being convicted, I would say that's compelling reason not to prosecute, assuming that the offer is to be formally withdrawn, with that communique coming on official Uni stationery?

The process and stress you've been through, and the loss of your future career would be more of enough of a lesson learnt, surely? I fully understand freedom pass misuse is serious, but does the above evidence put it into the realms of against the public interest, settle with an administration fee? After all, they've kinda got OP over barrel with regards to what they charge... and TfL will get all of it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry to stick my oar in here but, I would argue, that if you've lost your university place on the mere threat of being convicted, I would say that's compelling reason not to prosecute, assuming that the offer is to be formally withdrawn, with that communique coming on official Uni stationery?

The process and stress you've been through, and the loss of your future career would be more of enough of a lesson learnt, surely? I fully understand freedom pass misuse is serious, but does the above evidence put it into the realms of against the public interest, settle with an administration fee? After all, they've kinda got OP over barrel with regards to what they charge... and TfL will get all of it.

TfL will basically not settle out of court; they only give warnings or prosecute in the magistrates'.

Hopefully the university didn't find this thread because back at the start the OP admits to paying money for a fraudulent reference to obtain the place. This has been a long one and it hasn't really gone anywhere since the first reply.