GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

[r4miii]

Sorry but it's for you to suggest things that mitigate your actions, not for us to try and make excuses for you.

You clearly intended to pay a reduced fare, that is textbook pre-meditated fare evasion. Dancing around the point by saying you paid something is not going to help you.

no i see, but you guys know my situation now so hence based on what you know how would i reword it.
i didnt intend to pay a reduced fare, i know you all think that, and so will tfl so no point me even arguing or debating it, i will just take it down with tfl and iap.
i havent mentioned in my email or letter to them once that i paid to top up the oyster anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2024 ==

Yes, but you did not pay your fare, this is not in dispute and you should cease any sort of semantics about this and definitely not include it in the letter.


You tell us how your mental health is relevant mitigation - or in other words, why should they care? What is exceptional about having stress/anxiety/depression, in what way did it affect your offending, and why, given those things, is it relevant to them deciding whether or not to prosecute you in the magistrates' court?


It's up to you to supply your mitigation, not for us to imagine reasons.

A good example, however, for a mitigating factor is that someone was, in fact, eligible for a Freedom Pass they misused, but hadn't got around to applying for it.

Trying to imagine what the court or TfL might consider mitigation and then imagining how you can stretch credibility to claim something as mitigation isn't the way forward.

thank you for going about this in a more positive and helpful manner.
thank you , i will take this on board. once i do my final draft i will send it here.

 

[Haywain]

i didnt intend to pay a reduced fare, i know you all think that, and so will tfl so no point me even arguing or debating it,

As you used a card which gives a reduced fare, it is impossible to argue that you intended to pay something other than the reduced fare. The amount of credit you put on the card before using it is of no importance in this respect as it only proves that you had more money than you paid.

 

[skyhigh]

i didnt intend to pay a reduced fare

You used a discounted Oyster card that you weren't entitled to.

What were you intending to do, if not pay a reduced fare?

thank you for going about this in a more positive and helpful manner.

If that is aimed at me, I am trying to help. Intent is judged by actions - and this is what TfL will be doing. If you cannot explain your actions in a way that aids you to us then you stand no chance of convincing TfL why they shouldn't prosecute you.

 

[r4miii]

You used a discounted Oyster card that you weren't entitled to.

What were you intending to do, if not pay a reduced fare?


If that is aimed at me, I am trying to help. Intent is judged by actions - and this is what TfL will be doing. If you cannot explain your actions in a way that aids you to us then you stand no chance of convincing TfL why they shouldn't prosecute you.

i had to use it, otherwise i would not be able to travel. i sent links whereby you cannot pay for tfl by cash

 

[WesternLancer]

I've amended this letter for style and to remove all the superfluous begging. It's okay to use ChatGPT to other AI to give a letter structure but it is clear that these aren't your own words and it comes across as insincere - so I have edited out a lot of the bumph and corrected the American spellings. To put it bluntly, TfL aren't interested in the shame you think you've brought to the family or how you were brought up; they don't care if you consider yourself a good or bad person, merely that you committed an offence by blatantly trying to evade the fare. So it is best to stick to the point. They read *loads* of letters like this every day so brief is better.

I think you are quite determined to explain your motive for fare evasion, which in my view is unwise but I have kept it in as you seem dead set on telling them. You claim you had literally no means of paying for your fare at all, yet a few days later you claim your financial worries are being fixed (how? you don't say) and you are no longer a fare evasion risk. Do not tell them you had cash, because, yes you can pay for your journeys with cash even if it is more expensive.

Overall the letter just reads like a Hail Mary attempt at avoiding consequences, when you really need to get to the nub of the matter quickly.

DO NOT SEND ANY LETTER OR EMAIL until you receive TfL's correspondence.

I would strongly suggest amending the letter to this helpful suggested draft from @AlterEgo in this post above. It covers what needs to be said in my view.

 

[r4miii]

I would strongly suggest amending the letter to this helpful suggested draft from @AlterEgo in this post above. It covers what needs to be said in my view.

thank you i will, i think i will just add how my circumstances affect me as someone has mentioned before, i.e. mental health

 

[WesternLancer]

thank you i will, i think i will just add how my circumstances affect me as someone has mentioned before, i.e. mental health

Yes, if you feel you want to tell them about that then you could add it in, generally I would advise keeping it brief with anything you add.

Of course, and I know this will not be great, but in general TfL do not often settle out of court for ticketing offences, and deliberate mis use of a pass is something they are even less likely to settle out of court in my view. But there can be no harm in asking in my opinion.

 

[alholmes]

i had to use it, otherwise i would not be able to travel. i sent links whereby you cannot pay for tfl by cash

As said before, you can pay by cash (apart from at a very small number of stations). The link you posted is wrong.

 

[r4miii]

As said before, you can pay by cash (apart from at a very small number of stations). The link you posted is wrong.

i posted two links right? both are wrong then? either way i never heard or seen it happen on tfl and even if you say it does it definitely didnt on the station i was unfortunately

 

[AlterEgo]

i had to use it, otherwise i would not be able to travel. i sent links whereby you cannot pay for tfl by cash

The links are just random people on junk sites like Quora. With respect, this site - a dedicated rail forum - has the most experienced people who know their stuff inside out on rail fares, and you seem to be in a cycle of trying to cope and rationalise what has happened.

As you have now found out, the posters here were right when they said you would be sent a letter asking for your side of the story before prosecution, and that you would not be getting a Penalty Fare, contrary to whatever misguided or attention-seeking junk you have been looking at on TikTok or Reddit.

You could have paid cash for your journey if it was your only payment method available. DO NOT TELL THEM YOU HAD CASH ON YOU - this is in your best interests.

 

[30907]

You say you contacted various universities. Did you explain what you were being charged with, i.e. evading your tube fare?
It is very likely (not certain, but it is the option they seem to take) that you will be prosecuted under the TfL Byelaws for that offence. If so, it will be a "non-recordable" conviction, it will be "spent" within 12 months and I would be surprised if it caused concern.

 

[AlterEgo]

i posted two links right? both are wrong then?

No, the TfL link is advice on the *best* ways to pay which are the cheapest and easiest ones. This is why it does not mention the expensive cash fares which they are trying to phase out, but which most certainly exist. The Quora link explicitly includes an explanation that yes, TfL does have cash fares!

either way i never heard or seen it happen on tfl

Irrelevant.

and even if you say it does it definitely didnt on the station i was unfortunatel

Which station was it?

You can find the cash fare for your journey here: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder

 

[Snow1964]

thank you i will, i think i will just add how my circumstances affect me as someone has mentioned before, i.e. mental health

If you want to mention it keep it short, and limit it to the direct effect on the event.

A bit of background for you, your letter is important to you, but is one of hundreds to the recipient, so try and think how it will be received, and how recipient will see it.

There is a big difference between someone apologising because they were wrong on the occasion as they weren't thinking straight because just had life event (eg just found out close relative had died etc). Which might get sympathy.

Compare that to a long term mental health condition which has been identified and is under doctor, where the user ought to be aware of potential problems and act accordingly. A harassed clerk processing your letter is probably not going to see it as a reason to change what they intended to do, even if you see it strongly.

 

[alholmes]

i posted two links right? both are wrong then? either way i never heard or seen it happen on tfl and even if you say it does it definitely didnt on the station i was unfortunately

Both sites are wrong. It’s irrelevant whether or not you’ve seen it, the fact remains it is possible to buy cash tickets. Tell us which station you are using, then I’m sure someone here will be able to check.

 

[Pushpit]

i posted two links right? both are wrong then? either way i never heard or seen it happen on tfl and even if you say it does it definitely didnt on the station i was unfortunately

Your first link showed "the best ways to pay", not "the only way to pay". The second link said the machines sometimes break down and don't offer the best value for money. The second point is stronger than the first. Except for about a tiny number of stations you can get a cash ticket, and if you live in London you would surely see this happen at the machines. There are other ways to pay cash, such as going to a newsagent and getting an Oyster card. It does go to the heart of your original mitigation wording, since you've said something that looks on the face of it to be untrue and would therefore do you more harm than good.

What is your best mitigation?
- You regret this enormously
- You won't ever do it again
- You did it as a one off (hopefully), you normally do pay and can demonstrate it
- You were unable to use your usual payment method due to being scammed (?) and didn't think to get a cash ticket
- You are young and therefore getting a criminal record has a potentially big impact, given future study and career plans
- There were some health issues that meant that you can't always think through to the correct thing to do.

The last point I am a bit sceptical about, I work with people with severe anxiety, my issue with them is that they tend to buy 2 tickets rather than none. There again I also recruit people into healthcare from uni, and I would normally not be too bothered by this sort of crime, so long as it was properly declared. The bad news is that this is all about mitigation - why you committed a crime - not why you should not be prosecuted. The good news: I can see for you it's a huge deal, and having a massive impact on you personally, but I can assure you that you will look back on this as "one of those things". It's not that big an issue even if you can't see it like that just yet.

 

[r4miii]

No, the TfL link is advice on the *best* ways to pay which are the cheapest and easiest ones. This is why it does not mention the expensive cash fares which they are trying to phase out, but which most certainly exist. The Quora link explicitly includes an explanation that yes, TfL does have cash fares!


Irrelevant.


Which station was it?

You can find the cash fare for your journey here: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder

when i got to the link only says oyster or contactless

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2024 ==

when i got to the link only says oyster or contactless

for the stations i was using

 

[TheJester]

In your very first post you say

”I didnt think of paying using my card”

So you do have a card which you could have used to pay, which you chose not to use?

 

[AlterEgo]

for the stations i was using

Which stations were you travelling between?

 

[alholmes]

when i got to the link only says oyster or contactless

for the stations i was using

which stations did you use?

 

[r4miii]

In your very first post you say

”I didnt think of paying using my card”

So you do have a card which you could have used to pay, which you chose not to use?

yes the sentence following it says as its the one i got scammed on. so i couldnt use that card its the card i usually use

 

[TheJester]

yes the sentence following it says as its the one i got scammed on. so i couldnt use that card its the card i usually use

So you did have a card that you could have used to pay. You just chose not to use it?

I think you can imagine how this will look from TFL’s point of view? They prosecute on most occasions, because they have heard every sob story under the sun.

You are clearly guilty of a byelaw offence, I think the sooner you realise that and act accordingly the sooner you can move on from this. You are deflecting from your own actions which isn’t a good look!

 

[ikcdab]

So you did have a card that you could have used to pay. You just chose not to use it?

I think you can imagine how this will look from TFL’s point of view? They prosecute on most occasions, because they have heard every sob story under the sun.

You are clearly guilty of a byelaw offence, I think the sooner you realise that and act accordingly the sooner you can move on from this. You are deflecting from your own actions which isn’t a good look!

I imagine that if the OP had been scammed on his card, then it will have been blocked.

 

[Energy]

yes the sentence following it says as its the one i got scammed on. so i couldnt use that card its the card i usually use

I'd phrase it something like

Due to recently being scammed, my bank card was locked at the time so I would be unable to use it to pay for the journey.

You can't say that you were unable to pay, as you had cash on you, but I would not mention that you had cash on you.

You are clearly guilty of a byelaw offence, I think the sooner you realise that and act accordingly the sooner you can move on from this. You are deflecting from your own actions which isn’t a good look!

Indeed, the important parts of the letter are:

1. You accept that you are at fault.
2. You would like to settle this via a fine and are prepared to cover the outstanding fare and TfL's costs associated with prosecuting you.
3. You currently have no job and no income, (A student maintenance loan is not considered income).

You could include:

1. Your card had been locked due to your recently being defrauded.

As others have mentioned, anxiety is unlikely to affect the outcome. I would avoid the letter being lengthy or appearing like a sob-story.

 

[MotCO]

In post #86, you include details of your Case Number. Rail companies are known to read this forum, so anything you have said may be picked up by TfL. They will not be able to directly use this information, but it may influence their actions. I suggest you repost the letter with the details reducted (obscured).

Two other points. Your initial draft response, as many have said, is far too long. Just imagine you were the person at TfL reading your letter (as one of hundreds which pass their desk each day). Keep it relevant so that you keep the attention of the reader, and they can see why you did it, what lessons you have learnt etc.

Secondly, with regard to any criminal record you may receive in due course, you should not attempt to conceal it in any way, and if there is a requirement in your contract of employment or university contract etc which expects you to notify them of any such criminal record, then you should proactively do this. It is considered to be a greater sin to try to conceal it than the actual ticketing offence.

 

[AlterEgo]

Secondly, with regard to any criminal record you may receive in due course, you should not attempt to conceal it in any way

To provide a bit of clarity, this advice can only be considered wise during the short period in which a Bylaw conviction would be unspent.

A conviction for this will be spent after a year and in the vast majority of circumstances after that year the OP will be entitled not to disclose it, and have the legal backing not to disclose it.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act gives former offenders the right to conceal spent convictions. Indeed a university or employer would not normally even be allowed to ask about spent convictions, much less make any inferences from them, unless there are specific safeguarding measures in place and/or the occupation is exempt from the protections in the act.

A simple guide to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (ROA) - Unlock

Aim of this information On the 28 October 2023, changes were made to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. This […]

unlock.org.uk

 

[r4miii]

To provide a bit of clarity, this advice can only be considered wise during the short period in which a Bylaw conviction would be unspent.

A conviction for this will be spent after a year and in the vast majority of circumstances after that year the OP will be entitled not to disclose it, and havethe legal backing not to disclose it.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act gives former offenders the right to conceal spent convictionsi. Indeed a university or employer would not normally even be allowed to ask about spent convictions, much less make any inferences from them, unless there are specific safeguarding measures in place and/or the occupation is exempt from the protections in the act.

A simple guide to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (ROA) - Unlock

Aim of this information On the 28 October 2023, changes were made to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. This […]

unlock.org.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==

hi guys i am going to send off the letter today i reckon so it gets there in time. for the mitigating circumstances a few people said I need to express how it affects me and why they shouldn’t prosecute you based on my mental health so what if I say the following:

When I am under significant stress and anxiety and feeling depressive , which affected my ability to think clearly and make rational decisions. Additionally, I was running late, adding to my stress levels. This combination of factors led me to make a rash decision to use the Oyster pass of another individual and not thinking of the consequences . Since the incident on the 16th, I have been experiencing ongoing difficulties with sleep. I frequently wake up during the night, and my sleep patterns have been inconsistent.

 

[SuspectUsual]

When I am under significant stress and anxiety and feeling depressive , which affected my ability to think clearly and make rational decisions. Additionally, I was running late, adding to my stress levels. This combination of factors led me to make a rash decision to use the Oyster pass of another individual and not thinking of the consequences . Since the incident on the 16th, I have been experiencing ongoing difficulties with sleep. I frequently wake up during the night, and my sleep patterns have been inconsistent.

Let's try and look at this how the people at TfL might. (Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but I'm trying to look at it from their perspective)

When I am under significant stress and anxiety and feeling depressive , which affected my ability to think clearly and make rational decisions

Can you evidence that with something from a medical professional? Can you demonstrate other instances (ideally not involving using the wrong ticket!) where this has happened?

Additionally, I was running late, adding to my stress levels

Your problem, not theirs

Since the incident on the 16th, I have been experiencing ongoing difficulties with sleep. I frequently wake up during the night, and my sleep patterns have been inconsistent

Your problem, not theirs

 

[r4miii]

Let's try and look at this how the people at TfL might. (Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but I'm trying to look at it from their perspective)



Can you evidence that with something from a medical professional? Can you demonstrate other instances (ideally not involving using the wrong ticket!) where this has happened?



Your problem, not theirs



Your problem, not theirs

i have a letter of proof to state my mental well being, it was from the doctor for me to provide my university options to prove my extenuating circumstances. It is a little brief and I told my DR what areas need to be covered.
if i ask for another one to be made, to cover what areas tfl may be looking for i have to pay more, i was thinking about sending them a print of the one i sent to university, and then writing, if you require any more info from my doctor i can provide it. do you think this is fine.

i understand its all my problem, but someone else on this thread said how is my mental health affecting me, therefore i wanted to show it is taking a toll. and i genuinely have been struggling to sleep lately, the fact that this may go to court has really been on my mind. what do you think? i want to post this today, as it needs to be sent or with them in 10 days whichever, so want to avoid the trouble of it getting to them late

 

[SuspectUsual]

i have a letter of proof to state my mental well being, it was from the doctor for me to provide my university options to prove my extenuating circumstances. It is a little brief and I told my DR what areas need to be covered.
if i ask for another one to be made, to cover what areas tfl may be looking for i have to pay more, i was thinking about sending them a print of the one i sent to university, and then writing, if you require any more info from my doctor i can provide it. do you think this is fine.

i understand its all my problem, but someone else on this thread said how is my mental health affecting me, therefore i wanted to show it is taking a toll. and i genuinely have been struggling to sleep lately, the fact that this may go to court has really been on my mind. what do you think? i want to post this today, as it needs to be sent or with them in 10 days whichever, so want to avoid the trouble of it getting to them late

If the letter from your doctor is genuine - and it sounds like it is - I don't think there's any harm in sending a copy of it.

But I'd be very cautious about mentioning the "after the event" stuff, because it could be counter-productive - it might be read by someone at TfL and prompt them to think "if I were in that situation I'd be super careful not to get into any bother"

 

[r4miii]

If the letter from your doctor is genuine - and it sounds like it is - I don't think there's any harm in sending a copy of it.

But I'd be very cautious about mentioning the "after the event" stuff, because it could be counter-productive - it might be read by someone at TfL and prompt them to think "if I were in that situation I'd be super careful not to get into any bother"

sorry i didnt quite understand what you meant by the last sentence