Got a penalty fare over something I didn’t know.

[smallnsad]

I’ve been on the train 4 times. I have only took short 30 minute journeys and every time I have paid on the train. Not once did the conductor say that’s not allowed. Today I got the penalty, the train was packed and there was no conductor in sight. I thought I can just get the ticket when I get off the train but I got the penalty instead. I did not know the rules and I’ve never been informed of them. The ticket was £4, I never had an issue paying that. Now they want me to pay £110 and I’m devastated. I’ve been crying for hours as I can’t pay that that’s nearly 2 weeks worth of food shop. I have disputed today however i feel like they will not accept my case. It’s way too much money I do not understand how they can do this over something I genuinely did not even understand

 

[methecooldude]

There are only a few occasions where it is permitted to board a train without a valid ticket

1. Where there is no ticket purchase options available at your origin station or the machine cannot sell you the ticket you require.
2. Where you are permitted to board by a member of railway staff
3. If you have obtained a Promise to Pay and intend to pay cash

If none of those apply, you must have a valid ticket before boarding.

You haven't made clear what journey you made in order for the experts here to assist further

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The ticket was £4, I never had an issue paying that. Now they want me to pay £110.

You haven't made clear what journey you made in order for the experts here to assist further.

Somewhere in the Blackpool area, presumably?

@smallnsad. Can you clarify where you started and finished the journey in question?

 

[transportphoto]

In order for a Penalty Fare to be valid, there must be posters at the station you started your journey outlining the requirement to purchase a ticket before your journey. Do such posters exist?

They do have to comply with legislation as to the wording etc, this may be an avenue to explore.

 

[robbeech]

Unfortunately you have been informed of the rules, there will be signage at your origin station telling you this. Of course, if you can prove otherwise then this would be a justified cause for appeal but it’s unlikely this will get anywhere.

I find it incredibly annoying that staff would sooner focus on their commission for selling a ticket rather than explain the rules to passengers which would reduce the number of penalty fares issued but unfortunately we are where we are.

One of the biggest mistakes passengers make nowadays is this unfathomable assumption that the railway cares about them. It doesn’t, at all. The only element that stops it being a completely hostile place to be are the vast majority of staff who are sensible and customer focussed.

In short, I’m afraid there’s unlikely to be anything you can do about this though an appeal is worthwhile if you have the time.

 

[nwales58]

I assume it is a Penalty Fare area.

There have been 'pay before you board' posters at stations with no ticket machine and outside PF land. TfW customer service didn't see a problem.

 

[MotCO]

I have disputed today however i feel like they will not accept my case. It’s way too much money

If you have 'disputed', I assume you have lodged an appeal which is good. Firstly, it means they cannot escalate it to a Court hearing, and secondly, it gives you more time to save up to pay the Penalty Fare.

The Penalty Fare paperwork you were given should say that if you pay within 21 days you only need to pay £50 plus the fare. It would be useful if you could post a copy of the paperwork you received so we can check that it was completed correctly - if not, it may not be valid. Please cover up any identifying information such as names and case reference number.

Lastly, please can you tell us what your journey was, and at what time approx and the day of the week. Also, can you confirm that you have never had any other rail ticketing irregularity.

 

[WesternLancer]

Prompt payment will reduce the sum requested by £50 which may be of some help but still not cheap.

If you have been sold tickets on the train in the past they often have a warning printed on the back saying that failure to buy before getting the train could result in getting one of these penalties. Perhaps the tickets you have bought don’t have that wording or you haven’t noticed it in the past.

 

[furlong]

Please attach a picture(s) of the whole of whatever notice you were given with your personal details and reference numbers covered up.

Do you still have any of the tickets you were previously sold on board? If so, please upload pictures of one, front and back. If not, did you pay by card, and can you get proof to send them from card statements? Try to gather as much proof as you can of how many times this occurred to submit as evidence with an appeal. Where Penalty Fares are in operation conductors should not be selling normal tickets unless they warn you every time that you could have been charged a penalty. Sometimes this is printed on the ticket they issue itself, and they must draw your attention to this when they issue the ticket. The problem is it is your word against theirs and you'll have to persuade the appeals body that what happened constitutes a compelling reason why it was unfair (so you might find it helpful to get a friend to record them selling you a ticket on board on their phone without warning you so they cannot deny it happens).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Where Penalty Fares are in operation conductors should not be selling normal tickets unless they warn you every time that you could have been charged a penalty.

Just for clarity - is this 'should not ' as in 'there's a rule that says this ' or as in 'in my opinion'? I don't know the PF rules well enough to be certain.

 

[Edsmith]

I’ve been on the train 4 times. I have only took short 30 minute journeys and every time I have paid on the train. Not once did the conductor say that’s not allowed. Today I got the penalty, the train was packed and there was no conductor in sight. I thought I can just get the ticket when I get off the train but I got the penalty instead. I did not know the rules and I’ve never been informed of them. The ticket was £4, I never had an issue paying that. Now they want me to pay £110 and I’m devastated. I’ve been crying for hours as I can’t pay that that’s nearly 2 weeks worth of food shop. I have disputed today however i feel like they will not accept my case. It’s way too much money I do not understand how they can do this over something I genuinely did not even understand

A lot of people get caught out like this, different staff work to different rules and how occasional passengers are supposed to know what's what I don't know. Guards will normally sell you a ticket on the train without any problems but revenue staff take a different attitude.

 

[Surreytraveller]

A lot of people get caught out like this, different staff work to different rules and how occasional passengers are supposed to know what's what I don't know. Guards will normally sell you a ticket on the train without any problems but revenue staff take a different attitude.

I suppose the reason for this, is a guard's primary duty is the operation of the train. Revenue is a secondary duty, so if they start getting involved in conflict it will affect the operation of the train by causing delays.
Whereas revenue's primary duty is to protect revenue, so they are free to create conflict as it won't affect anything else