Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I just hope that they can produce a far more professionally designed website, if they are serious in attracting business.
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GorillaBus - new coach service
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Steve Elms
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Mr. Sidorczuk, I have no issue in answering your questions at all, but I am sure you will appreciate that I am not constantly on the forum, so you may have to wait a little while before I get to respond. If you do need a quicker reponse, there are several methods of direct contact available through our website.
I accept fully that I introduced myself to the forum, and that I volunteered to answer any questions, and I have not withdrawn that invitation, but I did so out of a courtesy to members who had understandable doubts regarding a new Company, not out of any obligation to respond to anybody other than our customers and the appropriate authorities. I have to say that I am more than a little shocked at the almost aggressive demands for answers to questions that, quite frankly, no other operator would be asked were they to invite them, and even if they were to be, would be considerably less polite in their response. It's perhaps worth noting that not one member has yet asked a question regarding the route, timetables or fares, which does rather beg the question as to why there should be such a need for confrontational quizzing if nobody intends to use the service. I could understand a Watchdog-esque approach were there to be any negative response from customers to date, but there isn't.
Nevertheless, I will answer your points. I explained in my first post that the services are operated on a wet leasing basis - using vehicles and drivers contracted in from existing operators - as I have also previously commented, primarily, at present, from VIP Contracts Ltd of Birmingham. This is the same model adopted by the greater proportion of National Express and Scottish Citylink operations, along with all those of Megabus and Greyhound, amongst others. The precise vehicle allocated by VIP depends on availability and the capacity requirement for an individual journey, but could be any suitable vehicle operated by them. How individual vehicles are financed by that Company is a matter for them to answer, although I suspect they would no more discuss their financial affairs with a member of the public than any other operator would.
To answer your second point, as has also been commented, any facility, be it an express service, excursion or tour, which does not permit the carriage of passengers for any distance of less than fifteen miles does not need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners, and barring a few minor amendments, this has been the legal position for over thirty years now. As has, again, been commented through the observation that we do not carry passengers between Nottingham and East Midlands Airport, for example, it should be clear that, in not offering local journeys, we meet this criteria. I am not quite sure what you mean by 'attempting' to register a service, even if that were to be a requirement for a service such as this - a registration is automaticaly accepted so long as the relevant conditions and payments are made. The process of Road Service Licensing which you appear to be referring to was also abolished in 1980. And no, the Traffic Commissioner does not, and never has, had any issues with me, the Company, nor indeed any Operator I have ever worked for in the past, outstanding or otherwise, and the same applies to the enforcement section of VOSA. Such information would be openly available in the copies of Notices and Proceedings available on the VOSA website.
In respect of your third point, I am, again, not sure what you mean by 'connection points'. The initial network is operated as a through service, as has also been mentioned in an earlier post, so there are no connecting facilities at present. If you are referring to pick up and drop off points, all have been chosen with a view to the relevant traffic regulation conditions, and in the few instances where Local Authority consent is required, entering a Council facility such as Faulkland Crescent Coach Station in Wolverhampton, for example, it has, of course, been requested and granted. In most instances, the need to consult a local authority to operate an express service was abolished in 1930.
I appreciate that it is unlikely that any response that I give will ever dissuade certain people from their pre-judgement of an unknown operator as some sort of pirate-cum-blaggard, but can I suggest that someone actually try the service before sending us to the gallows? I'd hate to see the comments if we actually ever did something wrong!
I accept fully that I introduced myself to the forum, and that I volunteered to answer any questions, and I have not withdrawn that invitation, but I did so out of a courtesy to members who had understandable doubts regarding a new Company, not out of any obligation to respond to anybody other than our customers and the appropriate authorities. I have to say that I am more than a little shocked at the almost aggressive demands for answers to questions that, quite frankly, no other operator would be asked were they to invite them, and even if they were to be, would be considerably less polite in their response. It's perhaps worth noting that not one member has yet asked a question regarding the route, timetables or fares, which does rather beg the question as to why there should be such a need for confrontational quizzing if nobody intends to use the service. I could understand a Watchdog-esque approach were there to be any negative response from customers to date, but there isn't.
Nevertheless, I will answer your points. I explained in my first post that the services are operated on a wet leasing basis - using vehicles and drivers contracted in from existing operators - as I have also previously commented, primarily, at present, from VIP Contracts Ltd of Birmingham. This is the same model adopted by the greater proportion of National Express and Scottish Citylink operations, along with all those of Megabus and Greyhound, amongst others. The precise vehicle allocated by VIP depends on availability and the capacity requirement for an individual journey, but could be any suitable vehicle operated by them. How individual vehicles are financed by that Company is a matter for them to answer, although I suspect they would no more discuss their financial affairs with a member of the public than any other operator would.
To answer your second point, as has also been commented, any facility, be it an express service, excursion or tour, which does not permit the carriage of passengers for any distance of less than fifteen miles does not need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners, and barring a few minor amendments, this has been the legal position for over thirty years now. As has, again, been commented through the observation that we do not carry passengers between Nottingham and East Midlands Airport, for example, it should be clear that, in not offering local journeys, we meet this criteria. I am not quite sure what you mean by 'attempting' to register a service, even if that were to be a requirement for a service such as this - a registration is automaticaly accepted so long as the relevant conditions and payments are made. The process of Road Service Licensing which you appear to be referring to was also abolished in 1980. And no, the Traffic Commissioner does not, and never has, had any issues with me, the Company, nor indeed any Operator I have ever worked for in the past, outstanding or otherwise, and the same applies to the enforcement section of VOSA. Such information would be openly available in the copies of Notices and Proceedings available on the VOSA website.
In respect of your third point, I am, again, not sure what you mean by 'connection points'. The initial network is operated as a through service, as has also been mentioned in an earlier post, so there are no connecting facilities at present. If you are referring to pick up and drop off points, all have been chosen with a view to the relevant traffic regulation conditions, and in the few instances where Local Authority consent is required, entering a Council facility such as Faulkland Crescent Coach Station in Wolverhampton, for example, it has, of course, been requested and granted. In most instances, the need to consult a local authority to operate an express service was abolished in 1930.
I appreciate that it is unlikely that any response that I give will ever dissuade certain people from their pre-judgement of an unknown operator as some sort of pirate-cum-blaggard, but can I suggest that someone actually try the service before sending us to the gallows? I'd hate to see the comments if we actually ever did something wrong!
Living in a now Agecoach only teritory, id have to agree with you on that one!
Interesting that you'll be operating on a Spot Hire basis - Hopefully you won't be using an operator like a certain Arriva owned TGM / OFJ...Not impressed by the amount of farces ive had with them on Rail Replacement...Arriva Bus & Premier do not mix...
As for the pictures, Just googled Gorilla Bus too...And if this is what your using, as a VW restorer myself, id definitely pay to use your service!
http://www.travelpod.co.uk/travel-photo/dan-levitan/farside-2006/1177074000/img_4435.jpg/tpod.html
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Steve Elms
Member
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Haha, yes, Googling images for GorillaBus does turn up some interesting results, none of them related to us though, I'm glad to say! No, we're very careful with who we use, VIP Contracts of Birmingham is our main contractor at present, and it's built on a relationship of quality and reliability. I think Tony Hunter's website, http://wmbusphotos.com/VIP/fleetlist.html, is the most comprehensive collection of VIP pictures, although I'm sure you'll appreciate that some of the fleet has more niche uses than on our contracts !
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I put my queries, arcane as some might have been, in response to your own posting upon this forum which asked for a response, to which you have made detailed responses.
In reply to the second section of your quote above, I do not need to remind you of the banking industry reticence to provide finance to newly established companies at present. There was a programme on Radio 4 this morning when a member of the umbrella organisation that represents the banking industry in Britain spoke from a hidebound and entrenched position about the need to receive far deeper financial information from companies requiring loan facilities for both existing company developments and for companies wishing to set up new companies. The World Bank today has made comment upon the financial situation now prevailing and the share values of financial bodies fell very sharply overnight on investor doubts of the current fiscal policy that presently exists.
Look what has happened to the public and private transport services in Greece today, in response to their own Government's austerity measures.
Steve Elms
Member
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- 18
My apologies, then, if I have misinterpreted your tone - as I have said, I have no problem with answering any question, but the main response to my invitation - and I'm talking about other forums as well - has been to start from the assumption that something is not quite right. Personally, were I to be in the same position, I would be considering the fact that the booking engine is driven by PayPal, with full encryption, online security and refund policy. If a customer books a journey that fails to operate, we would gain nothing from it, but lose in several ways, so my decision as a customer would be based on destination, frequency and cost, with the options open to me being do I want to give it a try or not?
I quite understand your comments regarding the financial market-place, but, with all due respect, it is not really relevant because our customers' payments are protected through PayPal. We are fortunate enough not to be beholden to the whims of any High Street banks, and although our contractors are very well established and competently managed, even if any issue should arise with them, it would not affect our customers - we would simply find another contractor. To be quite honest, my personal opinion is that any downturn in the economy is actually a very positive thing for express coaches - the exorbitant cost of rail travel suddenly becomes a luxury for a start. Now that's one industry that really could do with being asked a lot of probing questions...
I quite understand your comments regarding the financial market-place, but, with all due respect, it is not really relevant because our customers' payments are protected through PayPal. We are fortunate enough not to be beholden to the whims of any High Street banks, and although our contractors are very well established and competently managed, even if any issue should arise with them, it would not affect our customers - we would simply find another contractor. To be quite honest, my personal opinion is that any downturn in the economy is actually a very positive thing for express coaches - the exorbitant cost of rail travel suddenly becomes a luxury for a start. Now that's one industry that really could do with being asked a lot of probing questions...
telstarbox
Established Member
Steve - thanks for taking the time to provide more details about GorillaBus.
I think some people are taking a "cautious" view following the Dash Travel Group episode
(see http://omnibuses.blogspot.com/2011/01/cutting-dash.html). I have no doubts about the claims you have made but as I'm sure you understand, anyone can throw up a website and say they're running a service.
I think some people are taking a "cautious" view following the Dash Travel Group episode
(see http://omnibuses.blogspot.com/2011/01/cutting-dash.html). I have no doubts about the claims you have made but as I'm sure you understand, anyone can throw up a website and say they're running a service.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Personally I think the design of the website is the problem. It looks like it has been done on the cheap and anyone can set up a website on the cheap.
Also the website contains no details or pictures relating to what type of coaches you use. If you show some nice modern coaches people will probably be more attracted to use your service.
The stop details are also a bit vague. For instance, you mention "Buses to and from MANCHESTER pick up and drop off at Chorlton Street coach bay, alongside Central Coach Station." On the other hand Burnley & Pendle state they stop at bus stop EZ on Chorlton Street. The additional stop information would be very useful considering it's a new service.
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Steve Elms
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Thanks for your further comments. I do understand, telstarbox, why people might be sceptical, but I guess the easiest way of testing our sincerity is to give the service a try. And thanks, jcollins, for your comments over the website. I'm not sure I would agree that it is a quite the problem you may perceive it to be - I'm not aware of it generating any comments one way or the other from anybody actually using it to book journeys, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be improved - it definitely can - it was never intended to be a permanent monument, and I'm always open to suggestions. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but for many of our customers, the need to prove we exist hasn't been an issue - I haven't yet had any such queries from the public. I also understand your comments regarding pictures of vehicles, but, and please don't take this the wrong way, but wonder if maybe this comes more from the same desire to prove that the company is real. National Express and Megabus don't use vehicles on their website in any meaningful way - there's always the danger that if you advertise a particular vehicle and another turns up, someone will find an excuse to complain - I recall occasions operating National Express duplicates when passengers would refuse to board a coach because it wasn't white.. Personally, I think that, for the public anyway, there is always an assumption that any vehicle provided will be safe, reliable and clean - not to mention the fact that, for most people, a bus is a bus, a coach is a coach - and that their main concerns are destination, reliability and cost, and this is certainly supported by much industry research over the years. It's all very subjective, I guess. I do appreciate your comments regarding stop location descriptions, and I will give it some thought, although a significant issue is that many of our stops are actually formal coach pick up bays, and part of local authority tourism and traffic regulation strategy, rather than stops described by identifiable codes issued by PTEs, for example. Our Manchester stop is a case in point - the Blazefield route is a registered local bus service and entitled to use the PTE stop on Chorlton Street, whereas the stop that we use is identified solely as a coach bay, as is the Terravision stop nearby. In some cases, we could identify the location by adjacent buildings, but there is often the risk that such businesses in contemporary trading conditions are sometimes short-lived, whilst other buildings are locally known by the names of long defunct occupiers. We have tried to make the Google Maps as accurate as possible, and the street view is available on them to help identification, but certainly worth some pondering!
Likewise, I think the express coach market has a very bright future. I'm not a fan of travelling by NatEx, so a new entrant to the market is a positive thing in my view.
anthony263
Established Member
I too would like to wish this venture well. I admit i did think this was a con when i first heard about it, but i have changed my opinion, especially after erading what steve has said.
I wonder if this venture does well we could see it expanding to other area's of the uk.
I wonder if this venture does well we could see it expanding to other area's of the uk.
WestCoast
Established Member
I can put up with NatEx/Terravision/other independents, but I dislike megabus. I used to travel with all of them regularly and although megabus used to be a lot worse, several things have put me off them. No aversion to megatrain/megabusplus/megasleeper e.t.c though.
Overall though, I avoid coach travel unless it's quicker or far, far cheaper than the train/flying/ferry.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The difference is most people have seen National Express and Megabus branded coaches on the road. Coaches that aren't in National Express livery that are filling on on NX routes are supposed to display a NX sticker on the front/side windscreen and be clean and modern.
Not many people will have seen a Gorilla Bus service operate, so they firstly won't know whether Gorilla Bus actually has any coaches and what they will be like to travel on.
I agree about reliability, destination and cost being important. However, coaches being modern, clean and comfortable are important for longer trips. I imagine some people would happily pay £12 to spend 4 hours on a modern comfortable coach over £5 to spend 4 hours on a dirty old banger.
Steve Elms
Member
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Thanks again for the comments, ivanhoe and trentside,and anthony263, yes, we do have further plans, but we're always keen to hear suggestions as well! Thanks as well, jcollins, I don't disagree with you at all, I would have hoped that modern, clean and comfortable was implied really - it certainly wouldn't lend itself to repeat bookings and longevity otherwise. I have, though, mentioned several times that there are no GorillaBus coaches, they are all contracted in at present, primarily from VIP Contracts of Birmingham - their website has a good selection of pictures of the sort of vehicles that they operate, and there are several other collections elsewhere on the web. I think maybe you misunderstood my point about National Express duplicate vehicles - having driven them on many occasions, the issue with certain customers is not that the coach is not identifiable as operating a NatEx service, nor that there is anything wrong with the vehicle, but that they will not board a coach that is not in full white livery. And radamfi, yes, I know people who have used the service, but I suspect that doesn't really count...
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I will ask the same question again, as another week has elapsed without an answer to the query raised by radamfi in the quote above.
The website seems still to be of the "brash and breezy" type associated with low-cost supermarkets.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
It's alright they've been spotted doing driver training: http://www.photo4me.com/uploads/665/51700_t.Jpeg
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
anthony263
Established Member
I hope they are just using the dart for route learning.
Dennis
Established Member
Just can't get the staff?...why are they training chimps to drive gorilla buses?
Steve Elms
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I've heard there's a new Tesco opened in Southampton. I don't live anywhere near it, so I've posted a demand on a forum for the CEO to provide me with evidence that it exists. I prefer Asda anyway, so won't use it even if he does respond. Sound reasonable?! If the service is of use to you, you have the choice to try it or not, if it's not, why would you need evidence? As I've said before, it couldn't be any lower risk - all payments are processed by PayPal, with their encrypted security features and refund guarantee. And after three weeks, it wouldn't bode well if we hadn't carried passengers, of course we have - not everybody is so keen to shoot down a new business. And yes, the website does look have the feel of a low-cost supermarket, personal tastes aside, that's sort of the point... and the chimps were just in on work placement, proof, were it needed, that anyone can pass an NVQ..
northwichcat
Veteran Member
In case the Gorilla union calls a strike.
Well, if you'll pardon me saying so, that is not really a good comparison. Tesco is a huge brand with a presence throughout the UK, unlike GorillaBus, which appears to have just started up.
Of course people want to know if anyone has tried it, and their impression of it. This is why businesses need time to build up, word of mouth is the best advertisement they can have. I'm not sure I;d agree that people are trying to shoot down a new business. It's more like they want to know more, and feel that the website does not assist in tempting them to try a new service without further information.
starrymarkb
Established Member
I think people are a bit wary as there have been a few Express coach companies* in recent years that annouce a start of service, take payment for tickets and then vanish with the money.
I think any new startup is going to be treated with caution until they have visible vehicles on the road** I know its bad for Steve but he should be able to overcome the initial scepticism.
I wish him luck with his venture.
*Dash/Dart bus of South Wales comes to mind....
**even if a contractor's vehicle with stickers in the window
I think any new startup is going to be treated with caution until they have visible vehicles on the road** I know its bad for Steve but he should be able to overcome the initial scepticism.
I wish him luck with his venture.
*Dash/Dart bus of South Wales comes to mind....
**even if a contractor's vehicle with stickers in the window
Steve Elms
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I accept your comment about Tesco, but my point is that it's rather bizarre that I am repeatedly asked to provide evidence of the Company's existence, when, as you observe, hearing from people who have actually used it is the only way that some of the forum members will believe that it is genuine, and even then, I'm not convinced that would persuade some of them. Bearing in mind that the forum membership comprises a small pool of people, and as I have said before, none of that group has yet asked for information on the service, suggesting that none of them are likely to use it, drawing implications of a hoax on the basis that nobody responded to the first demand for proof of use does not equate. I appreciate that many, if not all, of you do not like the website, and although nobody has yet taken up my request for suggestions, it is being reviewed. Nevertheless, taste aside, there is a lot of information on there, and anything that is missing you are more than welcome to ask me on here. I'm afraid I would dispute your saying that there is no shooting down - aside from the few supportive, and appreciated, comments, it would have been quite refreshing to have had just one comment regarding the connections, frequency and fares, even if it was appended with 'but have you ever thought of trying..'
Assuming it's still going I may give this a go in February. Although I live near Leeds and Bradford I only occasionally travel to places served by this new service. Off to see a band in a few places in February and March.
I was just having a look at Manchester to Nottingham which is one of the trips I'd be doing - a little shocked at an expected travel time of 4h00, compared with Transpeak at 3h40 (or the train at 1h47). Obviously I don't expect the coach to be as fast as the train especially at these prices but that's quite a difference.
I was just having a look at Manchester to Nottingham which is one of the trips I'd be doing - a little shocked at an expected travel time of 4h00, compared with Transpeak at 3h40 (or the train at 1h47). Obviously I don't expect the coach to be as fast as the train especially at these prices but that's quite a difference.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Exactly.
Plus if you see a new shop you have the opportunity to look at the products in the shop before deciding whether to make a purchase or not. If it's £6 for National Express or £2.50 for Gorilla Bus some people will choose the £6 option just because they trust National Express to turn up. Being assured you'll get the £2.50 back if a coach doesn't turn up won't be of a lot of comfort to some people as they won't be able to pay another operator £2.50 to make the same journey on the same day.
The first ever service should have been accompanied by a press release published by Gorilla Bus on their website with photos of passengers being welcomed on the coach by the manager. This would then put this new route in line with what's been done by other companies on other routes.
Maybe they should have even got some promotions staff to dress up as Gorillas and hang around the coach stops on the first day for publicity. Bakerbus used people dressed as bears for publicity when launching their 'Beartown' bus services.
Google News finds no stories for Gorilla Bus at all. This is surprising as I would have expected them to have told local newspapers about the new service and considering local newspapers will have occasions when there aren't many local news stories, a story about a new transport link should have been published.
WestCoast
Established Member
I don't think anyone is trying to shoot down your business here, I think it's brilliant that you are trying something innovative. Some posters are just a little concerned about the lack of promotion on the internet/newspapers e.t.c. This is especially important since your service isn't operated by one of the big, 'trusted' brands like Stagecoach (for megabus) or First (for Greyhound). In your example, Tesco and Asda are 'superbrands'.
Being totally honest, if I typed any firm into Google and found no search results apart from a website/facebook page, I would be a little concerned.
A few years ago, there was an 'airline start-up' that set up a website accepting bookings for a proposed domestic flight service. I believe this operator managed to gain marketing subsidies from airport operators and got their name in the papers as free promotion. It turned out that a fraudster was behind what looked like a legitimate business. People lost money because of it.
Now, I'm not for a minute suggesting that your business isn't real, because it quite obviously is. However, people do have concerns because of these past scams.
Take a look at 'the Big Lemon' and how they use their website:
www.thebiglemon.com - OK it's a little brash in places but it gives a lot of info with pictures.
I wish you success anyway and I'll book a seat for a Manchester to Liverpool journey soon.
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