Goodwick and Welsh Railways in General

[merlodlliw]

Out of interest we received this reply from WG earlier this week about what progress is actually happening toward using the Cambrian Infrastructure.
Can anyone verify if these discussions are actually taking place?

Regarding the passing loops at Dyfi Junction and Welshpool stations, the Welsh Government funded these two sections of track to complement Network Rail’s major re-signalling works and it made economic sense to install them concurrently. Again the new infrastructure is intended to further improve the capacity and resilience of the line. The prioritised National Transport Plan sets out a commitment for additional services, and we are preparing timetable options with Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales which takes into account learning from the train sectional running times that can be achieved under ERTMS when Network Rail fully completes its work on the line.
........................................................................................................................................................................................

When they offer proposed new services to the ORR, ill believe discussions have taken place, BTW when will NR finalise the work?

Bob

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Beyond Maesteg is blocked AFAIU.Ian

Not so. It would be quite possible to extend the line to Nantyfyllon and Caerau.

Meic

 

[anthony263]

There was an article last week about Maesteg etting a half hourly service soon once network rail have sorted out the loop at Tondu.

I hope this extra train will run via the vale of glamorgan line as I dont want to see the Swanline service cut to accomodate it

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Without wanting to derail the thread (I apologise for the bad pun!).
In terms of the Rhondda branch, I am a little curious in the history.
I know from my parents that Ystrad Rhondda station never used to exist, and the current Ton Pentre station used to be named Ystrad (unless they are wrong about that!).

I'm afraid that your parents are wrong. Certainly in BR days it was Ystrad Rhondda. There were several other 'Ystrads' dotted about the area and they all carried suffixes to distinguish them e.g. Ystrad Mynach; Ystrad Owen and Ystradgynlais. 'Ystrad' by the way is loosely translated as a flattish spot in a valley.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was an article last week about Maesteg etting a half hourly service soon once network rail have sorted out the loop at Tondu.

I hope this extra train will run via the vale of glamorgan line as I dont want to see the Swanline service cut to accomodate it

The loop will not be at Tondu but on the site of the former sidings at Llynfi Power Station below Llangynwyd. The power station has, of course, been demolished.

The additional trains will continue to serve Pontyclun; Llanharan and Pencoed with an additional station planned for Bracla.

The route from Cardiff to Barry, to access the Vale of Glamorgan, is already running at capacity. Capacity improvements on that route are planned and the V of G will, in due course have its own half hourly service.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The present Radyr - Coryton service could be transformed by the construction of a new stretch of line between the two terminal stations (they are quite close to each other) and forming a circular route. The stretch between Heath Junction and Coryton, though now single, is a double track formation, even the disused platforms remain. Redoubling that short stretch would enable trains to run in both directions around the circle opening up many more journey opportunities than the present end to end service offers.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A high priority should surely be to extend the line the mile or so into Ebbw Vale town centre. It's easy to forget that not everyone has access to a car and for any number of reasons, neither can everyone can drive. Think age, young and old; varying disabilities and, of course, low income. The present set up is incomplete. Just imagine that the station for Pontypridd was at Treforest.

Meic

 

[Greenback]

I think that the highest priority (after Gowerton and Chester - Wrexham) should now be finishing what was promised for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, before any more reopenings are considered. Although further reopenings are highly unlikely at the moment anyway.

 

[anthony263]

I agree with adding some double track bits on the coryton branch and extending the line to Radyr to connect with the cityline effectivlly forming a circle line service, perhaps the platforms can be extended to accomodate a 3 carriage train. As for the vale of glamorgan I meant extending 1 of the Vale of glamorgan service per hour to Maesteg.

My idea was to run an hourly Swanline service if the line is electrified beyond Cardiff which will also call at Pencoed, Pontyclun etc and do the Swansea - Cardiff journey in 63 minutes due to the units being emu's and having a higher top speed and great acelleration compared to the class 153's which are the norm on the swanline services.

I must admit I didnt know the loop was going to bet at Llangynwydd as I thought they were going to upgrade the existing freight loop at Tondu

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I must admit I didnt know the loop was going to bet at Llangynwydd as I thought they were going to upgrade the existing freight loop at Tondu

It is my understanding thatTondu is in the wrong place if a regular clockface timetable is to operate. Llangynwyd is just about right for this. While on the subject of Llangynwyd, planning permission has just been granted to build a new wood fired power station on the site of the old one. It is planned to bring in 800,000 tonnes of wooodchip a year, from Latvia, via Newport Docks and rail. The developers have stated that a new rail connection, off the Llynfi Valley Line, will be in place well before the opening of the plant in 2014. I can only assume that this will be installed in conjunction with the new passing loop. It should make for interesting layout. It will be a bonus to see regular 'mineral' traffic on the line once more.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to my previous comments on the Llynfi Valley Line passing loop, I note that official documents refer to a 'new' passing loop at Tondu which seems a little strange as the existing loop has been used to pass trains occasionally in the past few years. It is difficult to see why a 'new' loop would be laid. Perhaps the plans have changed but it was certainly intended for Llangynwyd.

Meic

 

[anthony263]

It is my understanding thatTondu is in the wrong place if a regular clockface timetable is to operate. Llangynwyd is just about right for this. While on the subject of Llangynwyd, planning permission has just been granted to build a new wood fired power station on the site of the old one. It is planned to bring in 800,000 tonnes of wooodchip a year, from Latvia, via Newport Docks and rail. The developers have stated that a new rail connection, off the Llynfi Valley Line, will be in place well before the opening of the plant in 2014. I can only assume that this will be installed in conjunction with the new passing loop. It should make for interesting layout. It will be a bonus to see regular 'mineral' traffic on the line once more.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to my previous comments on the Llynfi Valley Line passing loop, I note that official documents refer to a 'new' passing loop at Tondu which seems a little strange as the existing loop has been used to pass trains occasionally in the past few years. It is difficult to see why a 'new' loop would be laid. Perhaps the plans have changed but it was certainly intended for Llangynwyd.

Meic

Perhaps both could be used well the loop at Tondu could be used by the freight services. I wouldnt mind seing more freight especially if they perhaps run via the tondu - margam line especially since it is hardly used any more.

Based on the proposed Timeables I came up with for a Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service passing the trains at Llangynwydd would be better otherwise trains running to Maesteg would have to wait at Tondu for up to 4- minutes before heading into the loop

 

[Rhydgaled]

The route from Cardiff to Barry, to access the Vale of Glamorgan, is already running at capacity. Capacity improvements on that route are planned and the V of G will, in due course have its own half hourly service.

August 2011 Modern Railways had a feature on CASR (the Cardiff Area Signaling Renewal). The relevent section reads:

The improvements between Cardiff and Barry are aimed at performance resilience. Capacity will be broadly unchanged after CASR, and will not support local authorities' aspirations for additional Barry services. The Welsh Government's pledge to introduce half-hourly Vale Of Glamorgan services after 2014 could be delivered, however, by diverting one service per hour from Barry Island to Bridgend

I too think turning back Swanlines at Port Talbot is a bad idea. They should be hourly through to Cardiff with class 377s (or similar), extended through to Cheltenham Spa if there are wires. The extra Maesteg service should terminate in the bay platform at Bridgend, or be an extension of the second Vale Of Glamorgan (diverted from Barry Island) service. The 1tph from Maesteg to Cardiff via Pontyclun etc. should go to Ebbw Vale rather than Cheltenham, and also be electrified.

 

[merlodlliw]

Lots of North Wales stories & pics in this weeks excellent

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm.


Includes 67 training and blue virgins


Bob

 

[TGVDUDE]

Tondu - Margam is currently in use for divertions at weekends through to Feb, also maybe a maesteg - swansea could happen too with a track upgrade, also 57308 on the wag today

 

[ChiefPlanner]

August 2011 Modern Railways had a feature on CASR (the Cardiff Area Signaling Renewal). The relevent section reads:


I too think turning back Swanlines at Port Talbot is a bad idea. They should be hourly through to Cardiff with class 377s (or similar), extended through to Cheltenham Spa if there are wires. The extra Maesteg service should terminate in the bay platform at Bridgend, or be an extension of the second Vale Of Glamorgan (diverted from Barry Island) service. The 1tph from Maesteg to Cardiff via Pontyclun etc. should go to Ebbw Vale rather than Cheltenham, and also be electrified.

Some consideration has been given for a Llanelli - Port Talbot local doing local calls - ideal 153 territory !

 

[merlodlliw]

Crimewatch

On 19 January the conductor of the 05:10 Cardiff - Holyhead was attacked and pushed on to the platform by a passenger while the train was stopped at Prestatyn, suffering facial injuries. He was taken to hospital for treatment, and the train stood at the station for an hour before continuing. The offender left the scene; police are examining CCTV records, and would like to hear from anyone who witnessed the incident especially if they can identify the man. Contact British Transport Police on 0800 40 50 40, or the independent charity Crimestoppers on 0800 555111. In all calls, please quote reference 102 of 19/01/2012.

The link is above in thread number 40.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Crimewatch

On 19 January the conductor of the 05:10 Cardiff - Holyhead was attacked and pushed on to the platform by a passenger while the train was stopped at Prestatyn, suffering facial injuries. He was taken to hospital for treatment, and the train stood at the station for an hour before continuing. The offender left the scene; police are examining CCTV records, and would like to hear from anyone who witnessed the incident especially if they can identify the man. Contact British Transport Police on 0800 40 50 40, or the independent charity Crimestoppers on 0800 555111. In all calls, please quote reference 102 of 19/01/2012.

The link is above in thread number 40.

Peak train from Shrewsbury into Chester where conductor and 97% of passengers get off, conductor for coast joins at Chester. Picks up some trade that's heading into Rhyl for 9AM usually students - a fairly lightly loaded train on the coast usually a 3 car 175.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out of interest we received this reply from WG earlier this week about what progress is actually happening toward using the Cambrian Infrastructure.
Can anyone verify if these discussions are actually taking place?

Regarding the passing loops at Dyfi Junction and Welshpool stations, the Welsh Government funded these two sections of track to complement Network Rail’s major re-signalling works and it made economic sense to install them concurrently. Again the new infrastructure is intended to further improve the capacity and resilience of the line. The prioritised National Transport Plan sets out a commitment for additional services, and we are preparing timetable options with Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales which takes into account learning from the train sectional running times that can be achieved under ERTMS when Network Rail fully completes its work on the line.
........................................................................................................................................................................................

When they offer proposed new services to the ORR, ill believe discussions have taken place, BTW when will NR finalise the work?

Bob

ERTMS gives different sectional running times between loops/stations than did RETB concern is that Welshpool dynamic and Dyfi loops could now be in "wrong place" to allow hourly.

 

[merlodlliw]

Peak train from Shrewsbury into Chester where conductor and 97% of passengers get off, conductor for coast joins at Chester. Picks up some trade that's heading into Rhyl for 9AM usually students - a fairly lightly loaded train on the coast usually a 3 car 175.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ERTMS gives different sectional running times between loops/stations than did RETB concern is that Welshpool dynamic and Dyfi loops could now be in "wrong place" to allow hourly.

If in fact the loops at Welshpool & Dyfi are in the wrong place, after spending £millions on them, someone needs to be brought to account,

Bob

 

[The Planner]

The discussions are happening, and the loops arent in the wrong place but as ERTMS makes the route more "cautious", it makes a full hourly timetable a performance risk and would fall like a pack of cards much like it could under RETB if something went wrong.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The discussions are happening, and the loops arent in the wrong place but as ERTMS makes the route more "cautious", it makes a full hourly timetable a performance risk and would fall like a pack of cards much like it could under RETB if something went wrong.

We always considered the infrastructure chosen as the shoestring option anyway though given the price tag NR quoted to WG it was inevitable that they would go to the least expensive option of the many they were given to choose from.

I take it the gist of your reply is that more passing lops would be needed to ensure the reliability of an attempt to run hourly? i.e Caersws, Westbury?

 

[The Planner]

No, just that the effects of ERTMS on train running weren't understood. There are alledgedly easy tweaks to line speeds where time can be had which would make things more robust if it all got messed up. I'll agree that Caersws should have had a loop regardless of what was put in and sticking the location cabinets on the formation there was stupidity. As for the shoestring option, every new scheme is like that, the likelihood of bells and whistles on schemes now is pretty remote once the bean counters get their hands on it.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

I'm afraid that your parents are wrong. Certainly in BR days it was Ystrad Rhondda. There were several other 'Ystrads' dotted about the area and they all carried suffixes to distinguish them e.g. Ystrad Mynach; Ystrad Owen and Ystradgynlais. 'Ystrad' by the way is loosely translated as a flattish spot in a valley.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The loop will not be at Tondu but on the site of the former sidings at Llynfi Power Station below Llangynwyd. The power station has, of course, been demolished.

The additional trains will continue to serve Pontyclun; Llanharan and Pencoed with an additional station planned for Bracla.

The route from Cardiff to Barry, to access the Vale of Glamorgan, is already running at capacity. Capacity improvements on that route are planned and the V of G will, in due course have its own half hourly service.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The present Radyr - Coryton service could be transformed by the construction of a new stretch of line between the two terminal stations (they are quite close to each other) and forming a circular route. The stretch between Heath Junction and Coryton, though now single, is a double track formation, even the disused platforms remain. Redoubling that short stretch would enable trains to run in both directions around the circle opening up many more journey opportunities than the present end to end service offers.

Meic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A high priority should surely be to extend the line the mile or so into Ebbw Vale town centre. It's easy to forget that not everyone has access to a car and for any number of reasons, neither can everyone can drive. Think age, young and old; varying disabilities and, of course, low income. The present set up is incomplete. Just imagine that the station for Pontypridd was at Treforest.

Meic

His parents are right.The current Ystrad Rhondda station was opened in 1986.The next station to the north,about a mile up the valley,was called Ystrad Rhondda but was renamed Ton Pentre when the new station opened.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

His parents are right.The current Ystrad Rhondda station was opened in 1986.The next station to the north,about a mile up the valley,was called Ystrad Rhondda but was renamed Ton Pentre when the new station opened.

Some confusion here, it seems. That is what I was referring to.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No, just that the effects of ERTMS on train running weren't understood. There are alledgedly easy tweaks to line speeds where time can be had which would make things more robust if it all got messed up. I'll agree that Caersws should have had a loop regardless of what was put in and sticking the location cabinets on the formation there was stupidity. As for the shoestring option, every new scheme is like that, the likelihood of bells and whistles on schemes now is pretty remote once the bean counters get their hands on it.

With Caersws not being far from Newtown (where there is of course a loop) it supprises me to learn it would be a useful place for an additional loop. I would have thought extending Talerddig towards Carno to create a dynamic loop would be more useful, but I suppose I was wrong.

What linespeeds are available on each section currently, is it mostly 75mph on the Cambrian mainline (including Machynlleth to Aberystwyth) with 80mph between Machynlleth and Newtown? As far as curvature is concerned, most of the main-line east of Talerddig (except one or two bends near Newtown) doesn't look too twisty, so would the only requirement for 90mph running all the way from Talerddig to Shrewsbury be increased maintenance standards (ie. no capital cost, just increased day-to-day costs)?

 

[Gareth Marston]

With Caersws not being far from Newtown (where there is of course a loop) it supprises me to learn it would be a useful place for an additional loop. I would have thought extending Talerddig towards Carno to create a dynamic loop would be more useful, but I suppose I was wrong.

What linespeeds are available on each section currently, is it mostly 75mph on the Cambrian mainline (including Machynlleth to Aberystwyth) with 80mph between Machynlleth and Newtown? As far as curvature is concerned, most of the main-line east of Talerddig (except one or two bends near Newtown) doesn't look too twisty, so would the only requirement for 90mph running all the way from Talerddig to Shrewsbury be increased maintenance standards (ie. no capital cost, just increased day-to-day costs)?

The line speed upgrade in 1994 was designed on the premise that the service would (for ever more) be 2 hrly and all service trains cross at Talerddig. This was so that the number of units used on the Cambrian could be scaled back to a minimum. A lot of Talerddig to Shrewsbury is cleared for 80mph so that a train departing Shrewsbury could get there the same time as a train departing Aber simultaneously. Nothing was done west of Taerddig (60 mph max) as the current line speeds gave enough margin for a DMU to run to Aber and back within 2 hrs (just). Of course it needed both trains to depart Aber/Salop on time which we know when the Wales and Borders franchise was created just didn't happen due to the way the services were split from Central Trains.
The BR Project Engineer is one of our members and he says the chances for 90mph were marginal due to having to brake for restricted curves fairly soon afterward it was decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Formation was only ever single track Talerddig to Carno. I spent 4 years commuting from Newtown to Mach nearly every night I left MAch on time to sit in Talerddig awaiting a late running DOWN, a loop in Caersws would have allowed me to go forward.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why after all the £millions overspent on ERTMS, was attention to detail on passing loops not carried out.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why after all the £millions overspent on ERTMS, was attention to detail on passing loops not carried out.

Bob

There seems to be a disconnect between the two events. NR were going to raise the trackbed at Dovey Jnc regardless of any money from WG for loops. NR drew up around 7 options and presented them to WG including ones with loops at Glandyfi, Carno, Caersws, redoubling Newtown - Moat Lane etc and restoring platforms at Aberystwyth. It seems from what I've seen the whim of the then Minister IWJ to get the options on the table though inevitably the cheapest one was opted for.

 

[Markdvdman]

Well, it looks like they want to build a station in Caerleon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-16925364

 

[merlodlliw]

The cost of the station and the improvements would be £14.1m, although the report authors Capita Symonds said those figures were based on 2010 prices and could change depending on the detail of design.

You bet they will change.If NR submit a quote £20millions plus for starters.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was passing Aberystwyth station this morning (at around 08:45-55) and I think I saw the 08:07 from Machynlleth there (due in at 08:44). However, by the time I had got off the bus and walked into the station, unlike every time I have seen this service before, the unit had gone.

Normally, it waits in the siding until the 09:30 has departed, but today apparently not. Did it cross the inbound 158 at Dovey Junction and if so is that the first time the loop has been used?

 

[tirphil]

Don't know about today but the loop was definately used during commisioning last year. The loop was going to be used one morning last autumn when the 0807 ex Mach failed west of Dyfi Junction to enable it to cross with the 0848 ex Mach. However the points failed when the blade was part way across and then it wouldn't return to normal. So both services ended up returning to Mach.

 

[OxtedL]

I'm going to bump this thread as I haven't seen a mention of the more recent posts on fishguardtrains.info on the forums yet. It seems progress is being made, and quite quickly.

Particularly interesting as far as I'm concerned is the existence of this page on NRE...

 

[Rhydgaled]

A strange page that, OxtedL. Apparently there won't be a car park, which I think was the only thing that the station clearly would have when the re-opening was announced but the building had been demolished. Now, according to the story on fishguardtrains.info, there will be two modern shelters (one for passengers, one for bikes) and two buildings (the brick one and the new wooden one), along with an information display. Alot more than I had expected the station could get, the best I was hoping for was opening of the brick shed as a passenger shelter with a promise that a replica of the wooden building would be built at the end of the train's trial period if the service didn't revert to boat-trains only.