Good news for Glasgow to Edinburgh travellers?

[Geezertronic]

Network Rail is to fund a £1bn scheme to electrify the track between Edinburgh and Glasgow, cutting journey times to as little as 35 minutes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8204902.stm

Good news for travellers between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

 

[MCR247]

Whats this not announced like ages ago?

 

[me123]

Whats this not announced like ages ago?

The funding's now in place, which is good. But we've known about the plans for some time. This is pretty much confirmation that the plans will go ahead.

There will be electrification of Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk High, Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld and Croy-Camelon. The latter two are diversionary routes, but will allow Cumbernauld services to switch to OHLE and potentially be diverted to Glasgow Queen Street Low Level. Ultimately, it will allow for an extension of electrification to Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa to replace even more DMUs. This was good news, as I wasn't sure if that would be a later scheme.

There's also potential for a half hourly or hourly EMU between Motherwell and Stirling. This has been proposed for some time, but the most recent stuff I've seen about it suggest that they'll wait until the wires are up.

It's a good start for electrifying Scotland and reducing journey times across the Central Belt.

 

[tbtc]

The scheme includes boosting the frequency of services between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh Waverley to 13 an hour

?

Four an hour through Bathgate, plus four to six an hour through Falkirk High, fair enough, but thirteen? Are they counting the ones from Central too (two "Shotts" plus one NXEC service)? The next line suggests the Central trains are 'as well as' these thirteen - confused journalist?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld and Croy-Camelon

There's also potential for a half hourly or hourly EMU between Motherwell and Stirling. This has been proposed for some time, but the most recent stuff I've seen about it suggest that they'll wait until the wires are up

Would make sense to cut the QS - Cumbernauld - Grahamston service back to Cumbernauld, and extend the Motherwell - Cumebrnauld service to Grahamston (as Glasgow already has the "fast" route to Falkirk, whilst a Falkirk - Motherwell route would open up more links)

 

[me123]

Confused journalist I think.

13tph comes from:

• Up to 6tph via Falkirk
• 4tph via Bathgate
• 2tph via Shotts (happening in December 2009 or 2010 I believe)
• 1tph via Carstairs (this may be upgraded, but it's usually only 1tp2h)

Glasgow Queen Street-Edinburgh Waverley, whilst 13tph is possible, is unlikely!

 

[tbtc]

Confused journalist I think.

13tph comes from:

• Up to 6tph via Falkirk
• 4tph via Bathgate
• 2tph via Shotts (happening in December 2009 or 2010 I believe)
• 1tph via Carstairs (this may be upgraded, but it's usually only 1tp2h)

Glasgow Queen Street-Edinburgh Waverley, whilst 13tph is possible, is unlikely!

That's the way I was looking at it too - unless they are planning on reopening the Kincardine line to run Glasgow - Stirling - Alloa - Dunfermline - Thornton - Kirkcaldy - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh, I can't work out how they'd squeeze more QS - Edinburgh services!

 

[me123]

Would make sense to cut the QS - Cumbernauld - Grahamston service back to Cumbernauld, and extend the Motherwell - Cumebrnauld service to Grahamston (as Glasgow already has the "fast" route to Falkirk, whilst a Falkirk - Motherwell route would open up more links)

What I've seen suggests, in fact, that Cumbernauld sees a half hourly service to Falkirk from Glasgow Queen Street (as crazy as that sounds) and there's also a half hourly service from Motherwell to Stirling which would avoid Falkirk. (Calling Motherwell-Whifflet-Coatbridge Central-Greenfaulds-Cumbernauld-Larbert-Stirling). That said, the plans have been talked about for some time but nothing's come from them. But part of the electrification should also be Coatbridge-Cumbernauld so that the existing 156 may be freed up in the short term.

 

[tbtc]

What I've seen suggests, in fact, that Cumbernauld sees a half hourly service to Falkirk from Glasgow Queen Street (as crazy as that sounds) and there's also a half hourly service from Motherwell to Stirling which would avoid Falkirk. (Calling Motherwell-Whifflet-Coatbridge Central-Greenfaulds-Cumbernauld-Larbert-Stirling). That said, the plans have been talked about for some time but nothing's come from them. But part of the electrification should also be Coatbridge-Cumbernauld so that the existing 156 may be freed up in the short term.

I suppose another benefit of this is that the link between Hamilton and Coatbridge is resored (cut when the Glasgow - Hamilton - Motherwell service was extended to Lanark via Bellshill etc), since the Cumbernauld services can be linked to the Central Low Level route (no mention of Whifflets though?)

I appreciate that Grahamston is "central Falkirk" whilst High is more like a suburban station, but even so, a half hourly service to Galsgow via Cumbernauld seems a bit OTT!

 

[me123]

A bit OTT, but then again it may not happen.

The Hamilton-Coatbridge link, now with a whopping 5 return services a day, needs restored fast! The A725 and Raith Interchange are reaching capacity fast, and the buses take hours to cover a route which, even in peak time traffic, can be reached in 30 minutes. The train takes only 20 minutes and would be a really well used service.

Whifflets are also to be wired, but I've not heard much about that. It's been suggested that Hamilton services continue to Whifflet (and vice versa) and Lanark services all run via Bellshill. This improves a lot of things, but does remove a direct Hamilton-Lanark link and loses an hourly train to Holytown. A lot of the problem is also the bottleneck at Partick; turning back at Kelvinshaugh would be feasible, but Partick is an important station and I feel it would be detrimental to omit the call.

It seems to be that Whifflets connect to the Hamilton Circle local services, the Lanarks all run via Bellshill and there will be a Motherwell-Stirling train. There's also talks about a new station between Cumbernauld and Larbert (a local parkway) and a few between Coatbridge and Motherwell. But, like most information, this is all speculation and none of it is set in stone.

 

[chic]

Hi again, I guess it just confirms the funding of the EGIP, but welcome news.

To be fair, the herald broke the 'story' this morning and the bbc followed up on it.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/tra...er_faster_rails_1bn_vision_for_the_future.php
also, the evening times had a bit more as a follow up.

The impression that I get is that a formal announcement by the Scottish Government/Transport Scotland is to follow, but I'm wondering if there's maybe more to be announced, such as maybe for the commonwealth games? and are the infill electrifications for Paisley Canal and Whifflet going to be announced at same time?

Sorry to be daft, but would more new rolling stock be needed and how many units?

And would Cumbernauld be served by electric services from both the north clyde line and QS high level? I'm guessing the proposal to electrify Springburn to Cumbernauld goes ahead.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Sorry to be daft, but would more new rolling stock be needed and how many units?

This interests me quite a bit. A follow-on order of class 380s for the 'flagship' Glasgow - Falkirk - Edinburgh shuttle? How many individual Turbostars (as opposed to multiples) are occupied serving this route?

 

[me123]

Cumbernauld, from what I've read, will be electrified as a diversionary path. Thus, the local services will also be changed over to OHLE. However, with the layout at Springburn, running to Queen Street Low Level, whilst it is an ambition, would require either reversing the train or construction of a chord. But if the Cumbernauld service took over from the Springburn service, you could get a direct rail link from Cumbernauld to Dalmuir, Balloch, Helensburgh...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This interests me quite a bit. A follow-on order of class 380s for the 'flagship' Glasgow - Falkirk - Edinburgh shuttle? How many individual Turbostars (as opposed to multiples) are occupied serving this route?

With the 314s now staying on until 2015, it looks like more rolling stock would be needed then anyway. So, a new order of possibly more Class 380s or similar would be likely to take the new electrified high level services and perhaps some commuter runs as well.

This would also allow a lot of DMUs to go elsewhere. With 1 train every 15 minutes, Scotrail employ eight class 170s on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route. At peak times, this goes up to sixteen trains. When you allow for Stirling, Alloa and Dunblane (assuming all these places get wires), you're looking at a minimum of 30 units to maintain current service levels, possibly more when you look at other needs across the network.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess one good point about Motherwell - Stirling is that you can do West Coast - Central Scotland journeys without having to cross Glasgow, on the down side not many IC services now stop at Motherwell!

I am still trying to work out how they will path the fast Edinburgh - Glasgow service as things are already pretty slick. Lets say for example they run it at x:12 it will catch up with the x:00 before it. I assume that the x:00 will have also sped up so it the timetable may look something like this.

Edinburgh... 000 003 006 012 015 021
Haymarket.. 003 007 009 015 018 024
Edinburgh P ..... 012 014 ..... ..... 029
Linlithgow... ..... 023 ..... ..... 032
Polmont...... ..... 028 .... ..... 037
Falkirk........ 024 ..... .... ..... 042
Croy.......... 034
Glasgow Qs. 044 .... yes 047 059 yes

with the x06 and x21 running via Bathgate

 

[tbtc]

A follow-on order of class 380s for the 'flagship' Glasgow - Falkirk - Edinburgh shuttle?

I can't imagine the Scottish Government accepting old 319s from Thameslink, which is what other electrifications have to look forward to...

 

[Failed Unit]

Cumbernauld, from what I've read, will be electrified as a diversionary path. Thus, the local services will also be changed over to OHLE. However, with the layout at Springburn, running to Queen Street Low Level, whilst it is an ambition, would require either reversing the train or construction of a chord. But if the Cumbernauld service took over from the Springburn service, you could get a direct rail link from Cumbernauld to Dalmuir, Balloch, Helensburgh...

I have seen simular things, Queen St - Cumbernauld - Falkirk G electricfied as a diversion route should the Lenzie route be unavialable. But Cumbernauld services go onto the low level to free up platforms on the high level free up platform space. (not sure how this will impact the journey time). I guess some passengers will welcome the direct links to High Street, Charing X and Partick.

It was also mentioned about doing Anniesland - Glasgow as this will be the only local DMU operated route out of Queen Street, (yes Inverness and Aberdeen will remain but they don't really interwork with Anniesland services).

I guess without the diversion routes it will be chaos if the Lenzie route did become unavialable, at least now diversions take place very quickly.

 

[me123]

I can't imagine the Scottish Government accepting old 319s from Thameslink, which is what other electrifications have to look forward to...

Why should they? We have 170s which do a good job, and the capacity and level of comfort on these units is needed. Whilst I would understand 319s for Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Fife Circle, or similar short distance electrification programs, the Edinburgh to Glasgow route (and, indeed, Glasgow-Stirling) is a key route that should not suffer any decrease in the quality of rolling stock.

 

[johnb]

Why should they? We have 170s which do a good job, and the capacity and level of comfort on these units is needed. Whilst I would understand 319s for Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Fife Circle, or similar short distance electrification programs, the Edinburgh to Glasgow route (and, indeed, Glasgow-Stirling) is a key route that should not suffer any decrease in the quality of rolling stock.

The 319s are going to be refurbed with new seats and AC installed between 2013-2016, so there's no reason why they should represent a decrease in quality of rolling stock on EDB-GLA compared to 170s (which they'll be faster and quieter than, being electric).

 

[chic]

sorry this is probably another daft question, but would there be an issue with 4 car emus such as the class 319's being transferred up as the current electric units are 3 car with a limited amount of the 380's going to be 4 car.

I'm just thinking about platform space at queen st, even if new platforms are built and also guessing that a high frequency service may not need the 4 car units outwith peak times.

Another thing I wondered about is if the 314's get refurbed before 2015 would scotrail want to keep them? I've read differing things about the 314's and wasn't sure about what was planned for them

 

[jopsuk]

Good point- although the 319 does have a non-driving trailer, that's where the loos are at the moment. However, when the 319s have been mentioned in connection to the GWML electrification, there's also been mention of very heavy refurbishment (including the fitting of aircon, so if similar work was done on hypothetical units for Scotland, it may be possible to install facilities (possibly including holding tanks?) in one of the driving trailers and shorten the unit?

 

[me123]

The 319s are going to be refurbed with new seats and AC installed between 2013-2016, so there's no reason why they should represent a decrease in quality of rolling stock on EDB-GLA compared to 170s (which they'll be faster and quieter than, being electric).

As they stand, they are similar to the unpopular Class 320 trains inside. On that basis, I feel that they are a decline in quality. Class 170s are suitable for long distance work based solely on the internal 2+2 layout, and I feel that there should not be a decline in quality. A decline in the quality resulting from any improvement project in the UK would be unacceptable in my opinion. Besides, a 3+2 layout has proven useless in Scotland; people simply do not choose to use the middle seat up here. The new 380s will be built as 2+2 throughout with that in mind.

Ideally, the 319s going to Liverpool-Manchester would be refurbished internally. But, as they stand, they would be improving the current offering. The 150s and pacers are at least the same inside, but the 319s would at least have the four carriages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

sorry this is probably another daft question, but would there be an issue with 4 car emus such as the class 319's being transferred up as the current electric units are 3 car with a limited amount of the 380's going to be 4 car.

I'm just thinking about platform space at queen st, even if new platforms are built and also guessing that a high frequency service may not need the 4 car units outwith peak times.

The platforms at Glasgow Queen Street are to be extended as part of a station improvement program. 8 car trains should not be a problem on completion of this work. I would imagine that 4/8 cars between Glasgow and Edinburgh (and, indeed, potentially further afield) isn't unrealistic given future passenger growth with the reduced journey times.

As it stands, only Platform 7 can take more than 6 carriages, and even then I don't know how much more.

Another thing I wondered about is if the 314's get refurbed before 2015 would scotrail want to keep them? I've read differing things about the 314's and wasn't sure about what was planned for them

I don't think they'll be refurbished, although they really do deserve it! They do so much work and carry so many passengers, but an interior refresh isn't worth it at this late stage if you ask me.

They've been a bit of a victim of these differing time scales. On their last overhaul, they were expected to be binned quite quickly. The date has now been pushed back, so with hindsight they should have been done, but it's now too late if you see what I mean! To fit new seats to the trains for five years isn't worth the bother, never mind the money.

 

[tbtc]

sorry this is probably another daft question, but would there be an issue with 4 car emus such as the class 319's being transferred up as the current electric units are 3 car with a limited amount of the 380's going to be 4 car

From memory, when the 308s came north to the Leeds/ Bradford - Ilkley/ Skipton lines they were reduced from four car to three car

 

[JustinStacey.x]

travelling on a 170 is a dream. I went from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness in one and the whole time I was comfortable, warm enough, happy and the ride is amazing, it feels like you are floating on a cushion of air. No other train that I've been on can compare to them.

Once I got to Inverness I had to change over to a 158 to head to Elgin. The journey was only 1 and a half hours compared to the 4 or so hours I spent in the turbostar, yet the 158 ride was horrible, I felt like my arse was dragging along the floor. to replace 170s with anything less than other 170s would disappoint me. 156s, 450s and 334s are the only other train i have been on that come close to being as comfortable.

I hear of a lot of railfans slamming 170s and saying they're rubbish and stuff but I honestly can't see why.

It looks as if the new 380s are going to be fairly similar inside to London's 450s, which I also found to be very comfortable so I am looking forward to that.

 

[90019]

Once I got to Inverness I had to change over to a 158 to head to Elgin. The journey was only 1 and a half hours compared to the 4 or so hours I spent in the turbostar, yet the 158 ride was horrible, I felt like my arse was dragging along the floor.

That's odd, I did Edinburgh-Inverness on a 170 then Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh on a 158 a couple of weeks ago, and I preferred the 158 to the 170.

 

[Failed Unit]

As they stand, they are similar to the unpopular Class 320 trains inside.

Are the 320's unpopular because of the lack of toilets? Because they are not much different to the 318's and 322's which don't seem to have as many people not liking them. However don't look at the 319's as what they are now, if you have ever been on a 317/6 or a former wessex 150/2 with the 2+2 seating you can see that these units can be made nice inside. However without the aircon they would probably still be a step backwards from the 170's.

I think 2x 8 cars could fit on Queen Street platform 7 now, maybe even 2,5,6 I have seen 2x 156 and a 170 on platforms 6 & 7 in the past they are 23m units so length of train 161m, the 319's are 20m units so the same length. Edinburgh and Stirling also wouldn't be a problem but every other station in Scotland would need extensions. I am sure that would be complicated in some areas.

 

[me123]

The 320s are both because of the toilets, but also because of the uncomfortable 3+2 formation which, as I emphasise, does not work in Glasgow. Strangely, I like 318s because the seats are larger and more comfortable that the ones on the 320s. I also dislike 322s, but I'm not from Edinburgh so I don't hear as much moaning about them.

Justin, apparently the reason Scotrail's fleet are so good is because they're well maintained at Haymarket. I'm personally a big fan of them. I can see that some people would prefer other units (that's just human nature) but I like the 170s.

 

[johnb]

First of all, the 319s going to northern England and the GWML *will* be refurbished, *will* have AC installed and *will* get new seats. That's all published in the DfT's electrification document. However, there will still be some left over even after replacing the 16x-es on the GWML and the 15x-es on Northern - rather than scrap trains with another 15+ years of life in them, better to re-use them somewhere they're needed.

Second, why're you assuming that re-seated 319s would have 3+2 seating? If Scotrail specced the refurb for its units, then I'm sure they'd be 2+2. It wouldn't surprise me if the same were true for the England units, 2+3 generally seems to be out of fashion with 2+wide aisle+2 preferred to cope with peak-hour standing and comfortable off-peak seating.

 

[The_Stig]

I love the 320's. I get on at Balloch and if you can't make it to Queen street without the need of having a pee in the 49 minutes it takes then its the people who travel that have the problem IMO.

The 2+2 seating will also be a failure in parts. The 320's 3+2 provide a seat between passengers as a gap, most people do not sit beside others and prefer to stand from my experience.

The 320's look far better than the 314's and 318's IMO as well.

 

[james73]

Cumbernauld, from what I've read, will be electrified as a diversionary path. Thus, the local services will also be changed over to OHLE. However, with the layout at Springburn, running to Queen Street Low Level, whilst it is an ambition, would require either reversing the train or construction of a chord. But if the Cumbernauld service took over from the Springburn service, you could get a direct rail link from Cumbernauld to Dalmuir, Balloch, Helensburgh...

The Garngad Chord has been proposed for this.

James H

 

[tbtc]

The Garngad Chord has been proposed for this.

James H

Would be great if it happened - free up a couple of paths through the Queen Street tunnels if the Cumbernauld services ran onto the low level.

Presumably the low level line can accomodate a lot more than the current four/ hour - there shouldn't be any capacity problems east of Partick?

On a related note - I take it the Airdrie - Bathgate EMU service will be an "all stop" extension of the current Airdrie service (and not a "new" service between Glasgow and Monklands?

 

[james73]

Would be great if it happened - free up a couple of paths through the Queen Street tunnels if the Cumbernauld services ran onto the low level.

Presumably the low level line can accomodate a lot more than the current four/ hour - there shouldn't be any capacity problems east of Partick?

On a related note - I take it the Airdrie - Bathgate EMU service will be an "all stop" extension of the current Airdrie service (and not a "new" service between Glasgow and Monklands?

There's been talk of a turnback siding at Yorkhill but it's not been built yet. This
would allow services from the east to terminate at Queen Street or Charing Cross.
A Cumbernauld - Charing Cross service, for example, would suffice as a replacement
for the Cumbernauld - QS High Level service, though it may be slower if the trains
stop at Alexandra Parade, Duke Street, Bellgrove and High Street.

It leaves me with a concern for Springburn though. It's not beyond the realms
of possibility that it could close entirely. The once-mentioned Northern Circle (QS Low
Level - Bellgrove - Springburn - Ashfield - Maryhill - Anniesland - Partick - QS Low
Level) might be a replacement though it would require reconnecting the Maryhill
chord at Anniesland, and electrification of the Maryhill line.


Pie in the Sky suggestion. Queen Street Low Level prior to electrification had 4
platforms. Reopening them would allow services to terminate there in both directions.

I don't know the service pattern planned for Airdrie - Bathgate. I would assume
the services currently terminating at Drumgelloch would continue through to
Edinburgh.


James H