Gold Card First Class Supplements

[jon0844]

I think RJ is your man. he knows how to do it with his TOC apparently. no idea if his TOC uses the same system as FCC though...... :roll:

Not heard anything from RJ in a while? Has he been venturing down to use Southeastern recently and ended up held hostage?

EDIT: I've emailed FCC customer services today, and got a reference number, so let's wait and see what they say. My letter is more about assurances that I can get this ticket in the future, and pointing out why FCC should be actively encouraging their sale for extra revenue and to encourage more people to buy annual season tickets.

 

[BillyBoy]

On the NRE Upgrade to First Class page, where it says:

"In addition, the Gold Card First Supplement cannot be used on journeys departing from any London terminal station or any intermediate journey between London and Clapham Junction inclusive between 1600 and 1900 (inclusive) Mondays to Fridays (except public holidays)."

What does "any intermediate journey between London and Clapham Junction inclusive" mean exactly? Say you were on a train from Portsmouth due to arrive in Waterloo 17:00-ish. Would you have to vacate first class as you stopped at or passed through Clapham Junction?

 

[jon0844]

I got one today! From Hatfield.

Totally pointless in that I am using it for 2 stops and can't use it coming back, but I wanted to see if they existed and after 10 minutes, I walked away with five coupons!

Got checked immediately after boarding and the RPI was cool with it, so another win.

To explain, the lady didn't know how to do it and admitted as much. But she tried to search and look for a supplement or sundry ticket. No luck, but she didn't give up and asked a colleague and then got on the phone for guidance. She clearly wanted to learn and not leave me disappointed.

The solution was to sell my ordinary Gold Card return, then issue another set as an excess (£0) and get a supplement tied to that ticket number.

Now, that does raise one further issue. The supplement is valid all day, but tied to a single set of tickets. The RPI said it would be fine as long as I kept everything, but that's a lot of vouchers. Maybe should get a travelcard next time.

Anyway, the lady at Hatfield (who has been there some time) is exactly the sort of person any business would want working for them.

Of course, she won't be working there all the time!

 

[Be3G]

Anyway, the lady at Hatfield (who has been there some time) is exactly the sort of person any business would want working for them.

Exactly, that's the sort of attitude needed in ticket offices. I had a similar experience at one of the Canterbury stations (can't remember which) – the clerk wasn't quite au fait with it, but being an older gentleman who'd probably seen some years on the railways he willingly looked it up in what used to be the old printed NFM so that he knew what he was doing.

Incidentally, I've had the supplement issued as an excess too (by Liverpool Street if memory serves) – there do seem to be multiple ways of issuing the things depending on the TOC.

 

[jon0844]

This is what I got.

 

[Cambus731]

Unfortunately like so many things wrong with the railway, this very much comes down to the disaster of rail privatisation.
When I joined British Rail in 1988 I was trained for five months for ticket office work as BR trained their ticket office staff throughly including a tough exam and even after that wouldn't let you go on shift until they were satisfied that you knew virtually everything.
Unfortunately, the TOCs these days fail to understand what a difficult stressful job railway ticket office work is, and throw staff in at the deep end with very little training.
I don't know what system FCC use, but on Tribute the gold card supplement is issued using the 'local Tickets' facility.

 

[Bishopstone]

Unfortunately like so many things wrong with the railway, this very much comes down to the disaster of rail privatisation.
When I joined British Rail in 1988 I was trained for five months for ticket office work as BR trained their ticket office staff throughly including a tough exam and even after that wouldn't let you go on shift until they were satisfied that you knew virtually everything.
Unfortunately, the TOCs these days fail to understand what a difficult stressful job railway ticket office work is, and throw staff in at the deep end with very little training.

I'm sure you are basically correct there, although would point out that I was buying All Line Rovers in the early 90s, where (as now) my local ticket offices would deny the product existed, and if pressed, suggest I visit a travel centre in London. So, knowledge was probably better, but certainly not perfect.

 

[CyrusWuff]

When I joined British Rail in 1988 I was trained for five months for ticket office work as BR trained their ticket office staff throughly including a tough exam and even after that wouldn't let you go on shift until they were satisfied that you knew virtually everything.

At one point, I believe you had to start out working in one of the Telephone Enquiry Bureaux before they'd even consider letting you loose in a Ticket Office!

Unfortunately, the TOCs these days fail to understand what a difficult stressful job railway ticket office work is, and throw staff in at the deep end with very little training.

When I started we had three weeks of (fairly comprehensive) classroom-based training with the remainder being learnt "on the job".

I believe the current trend is a week of induction and a week in the classroom before going to your home station to learn on the job.

I don't know what system FCC use, but on Tribute the gold card supplement is issued using the 'local Tickets' facility.

On the GN side it's mostly Tribute, as can be deduced by the "Window" number on said tickets being 48. Cubic FasTIS "Windows" start at 51 and I believe Shere SMART start at 30, with Avantix Mobile being a fixed 70. Not sure about Fujitsu STAR though.

I can't recall if Tribute has a link to Journey Planner (formerly RJIS) or not, but for those TIS that do, I'd be inclined to switch to Journey Planner to issue any Supplements as you can drop them straight into the basket...Saves a lot of time as you don't have to play "Hunt the Supplement".

 

[jon0844]

Why can't these systems have a search facility, given there's a full keyboard in front of the staff?

Why couldn't someone just type in 'Gold Card supplement' and see suggestions come up? Then use 'breadcrumbs' to allow that person to know where it is for future reference, although if using a decent search facility with suitable fuzzy logic, you might just use the search every single time.

 

[LowLevel]

To issue properly on avantix -

If you already have a ticket, go into secondary, supplements, put in a relevant journey eggs Hassocks to Brighton, edit nfa for adult or nfc for child to the right number of passengers, pick OK then pay as normal. No need at all for a zero fare excess.

To do with a ticket, select the ticket, apply the network gold card discount , select supplements on the subtotal screen, edit nfa or nfc as appropriate as above, choose OK, pay and issue. Bob's your uncle.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I'm sure you are basically correct there, although would point out that I was buying All Line Rovers in the early 90s, where (as now) my local ticket offices would deny the product existed, and if pressed, suggest I visit a travel centre in London. So, knowledge was probably better, but certainly not perfect.

Who gets the money for all line rovers though, its not like Anglia Plus where GA get the money, I know in the past I have had trouble getting this ticket from FCC at Lynn, was told we aren't allowed to sell it

On another note who would want to buy that ticket anyway, its not exactly value for money not when you can get regional rovers or walk up and advanced, the Lincolnshire day ranger to me is the best value alot less than buying a walk up return especially when there are no advance fares

 

[bb21]

Not sure about Fujitsu STAR though.

30 according to this.

 

[Deerfold]

On another note who would want to buy that ticket anyway, its not exactly value for money not when you can get regional rovers or walk up and advanced, the Lincolnshire day ranger to me is the best value alot less than buying a walk up return especially when there are no advance fares

Shouldn't that be a question for the customer to work out for themselves?

Whilst it's proabably not suitable for a lot of people (it seems to be better for those who want to travel most of the week / fortnight rather than just getting to and from places.

A lincolnshire day ranger is fine if you're travelling round lincolnshire but if you're doing things like peak Scotland - London journeys whilst retaining flexibility the ALR can look pretty good (though there is the odd restrition creeping in now).

 

[Hassocks5489]

On the GN side it's mostly Tribute, as can be deduced by the "Window" number on said tickets being 48. Cubic FasTIS "Windows" start at 51 and I believe Shere SMART start at 30, with Avantix Mobile being a fixed 70. Not sure about Fujitsu STAR though.

Shere SMART starts at 90 and goes upwards, except for the terminals operated by Virgin Trains which start at 01. Another exception was London Victoria: when the 14 APTIS positions were replaced with 14 SMARTs, they were numbered 84-97. Terminals installed subsequently (e.g. two XS fares windows) were then numbered downwards from 83.

Other systems: Fujitsu STAR = upwards from 30* as bb21 says above; Shere FAST upwards from 81; Scheidt & Bachmann upwards from 21; Avantix WebTIS upwards from 01; Parkeon upwards from 51. Finally, the former Ascom EasyTicket system (rare; long since defunct!) started at 61, and the even more obscure Höft & Wessel system (two short-lived trial machines at Reading) started at 71.

* Bath Spa and Oxford anomalously start at 40; I've never found out why!

 

[jon0844]

Got a response from FCC last night:

Nice to see it focuses on explaining how things work so I know. Erm, I already did know!

What I want to know, and asked FCC, was how I can ever be sure that I'm likely to be able to buy a supplement from one of their stations in the future.

Me knowing how it works still isn't going to help me convince staff that think otherwise because "all information our employees give will, to the best of their knowledge, be correct.".

Dear Mr Morris

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I understand you have an enquiry about the conditions of your Annual Gold Card in relation to the First Class supplement service.

I was sorry to hear you had trouble in acquiring the upgrade on your recent journey between Cambridge and Stevenage on 25 January 2014. I would like to take this opportunity to explain the conditions relating to your concern and hope this will assist any future enquiries you may have.

As you are aware Gold Card First Supplements are available to Annual Gold Card holders and up to 3 accompanying adults and 4 children for whom a discounted fare has been paid. This can be used in conjunction with a valid discounted Standard Class ticket for travel in First Class accommodation (where available) for a single or return journey on the day for which the Gold Card First Supplement is dated.

On Saturdays, Sundays and Public Holidays, Annual Gold Card holders may purchase Gold Card First Supplements for themselves for travel wholly on a journey covered by the route or zones on their Annual Gold Card without having to buy a further discounted ticket. With this in mind I understand the confusion may lie in the eligibility of your Annual Gold Card with the route you were trying to take. Gold Card First Supplements are available with all Train Companies participating in the Gold Card scheme. Providing that this was the case on this occasion you should have been granted the upgrade with your valid Annual Gold card after purchasing an additional discounted standard class ticket for you and your fellow travellers. I am sorry that you were not granted the upgrade on this occasion.

I understand you were unhappy with how the relevant member of staff handled the situation and I am sorry that it appears you may have been given incorrect information on this occasion. We know that it is very important that the information you are given is correct and I can appreciate the frustration and inconvenience any errors can cause. I can assure you that all information our employees give will, to the best of their knowledge, be correct.

I am sure the employee involved would be disappointed to learn that they may have made a mistake. As we take such complaints very seriously, I have passed your comments to the manager responsible for the staff member concerned. The manager will look into what happened and address any training needs that may arise as a result of their investigation.

If you do have any further questions concerning the Annual Gold Card First upgrade supplement please do not hesitate to contact us again. With the information supplied above I hope you will not encounter similar problems with future purchases.

Thank you again for getting in touch. Feedback such as yours allows us to identify where improvements need to be made.

Yours sincerely

Calum Wadge
Customer Relations Advisor

I feel I might have to write back and suggest that a major point has been missed here. Staff thinking they're right is not just a problem for things like this, but loads of things.

How does this address things, by stating that staff will be told in the future to make enquiries if they're not entirely sure? What about closing ranks on customers who are right, but where staff now feel they have no choice but to dig in their heels so as to save face?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can assure you that all information our employees give will, to the best of their knowledge, be correct.

Of course it is. The problem is that the "best of their knowledge" isn't good enough, otherwise they'd know how to sell the blasted ticket.

 

[Clip]

Of course it is. The problem is that the "best of their knowledge" isn't good enough, otherwise they'd know how to sell the blasted ticket.

I have said it before so I will say it again.

These people are only human. And when you are sat in a ticket office for 7 hours a day and the only thing you seem to sell is a TC - especially in commuter stations to London, it is very easy for their knowledge on how to issue things that rarely get asked, to be lost.

Yes we can and do try to retrain them but at times this would lead to the booking office to be closed during these refresher courses and we all know peoples attitudes to that on here.


So, what do you suggest?? Shall we breed a race of super humans with brains so big they can retain all the knowledge they were probably taught 6 years ago but havent really had to use?

 

[Be3G]

I think you're missing the point Clip! The problem is really this (emphasis below is mine…):

Now, it's fine for a member of staff in the ticket office to not know everything - so I attempted to explain what it was, and asked him to double check with whatever paperwork he had, The Manual, the NRCoC etc.

But no, I was wrong and he'd had all the training thank you very much. And when I said, as politely as possible while being incredibly frustrated and having people behind me who were likely getting rather upset too, he was wrong - that was it. Suddenly the other two members of staff closed ranks and told me that I was totally wrong and that I shouldn't be questioning someone that has been trained and knows what's what.

 

[jon0844]

Plus, Karen at Hatfield station didn't know either, so made sure to find out and then sold me the supplement. All you could ever ask for.

All I want is for staff to be trained to feel it okay to say when they don't know something, not pretend they do by lying and making stuff up.

Especially in this day and age where people are quite likely to follow things up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have said it before so I will say it again.

These people are only human.

I think you've slightly missed my point.

The issue wasn't that they didn't know how to sell the ticket, the issue was that they didn't accept that there might be things they don't know. The staff member insisting that they know everything was the problem.

I don't think anyone suggested the clerk maliciously or deliberately refused to sell the ticket. But they did suggest there was a knowledge gap. That's why the bit I highlighted was such nonsense.

You can't know what you don't know, but you can accept there are things you don't know.

 

[TonyR]

So, what do you suggest?? Shall we breed a race of super humans with brains so big they can retain all the knowledge they were probably taught 6 years ago but havent really had to use?

How about doing what every other industry does and have a manual that can be pulled down off the shelf or pulled up on the screen that tells them how to do it? I've seen people rummaging around for a bit of loose paper they remembered being sent and I've seen them using the on-screen search facility to no avail instead. But they seem to have nothing at all to help them do the things they don't know how to do or can't remember. Its not rocket science to solve it.

 

[DelayRepay]

I have said it before so I will say it again.

These people are only human. And when you are sat in a ticket office for 7 hours a day and the only thing you seem to sell is a TC - especially in commuter stations to London, it is very easy for their knowledge on how to issue things that rarely get asked, to be lost.

I am only human as well, but if I make a mistake about ticket validity, I can be issued with a penalty fare or taken to court. And I'm not a trained railway employee.

If it is acceptable for ticket office staff to make mistakes, then why does the railway impose penalty fares on passengers who make honest mistakes?

 

[Haywain]

I am only human as well, but if I make a mistake about ticket validity, I can be issued with a penalty fare or taken to court. And I'm not a trained railway employee.

If it is acceptable for ticket office staff to make mistakes, then why does the railway impose penalty fares on passengers who make honest mistakes?

That is a ridiculous comparison to make. A person who works in a ticket office and makes honest mistakes can lose their job. Although, for some reason, you chose to set this against a quote talking about why they might not remember how to do something, which isn't quite the same.

 

[VauxhallandI]

And a passenger who makes a mistake can lose their liberty.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though the chances of that happening for a first offence or even for someone whose been convicted more than once are vanishingly small...

 

[VauxhallandI]

Though the chances of that happening for a first offence or even for someone whose been convicted more than once are vanishingly small...

I agree.

The chances of being fired for getting your first ticket issue wrong is just as small.

Consequences build up as the level of incompetence increases or the frequency of failure stays at the same rate. Just as they do for the passenger.

 

[DelayRepay]

That is a ridiculous comparison to make. A person who works in a ticket office and makes honest mistakes can lose their job. Although, for some reason, you chose to set this against a quote talking about why they might not remember how to do something, which isn't quite the same.

Why is it ridiculous a ridiculous comparison?

The previous posts were suggesting that it's acceptable for ticket office staff to make mistakes and that the fact they might spend most of the day selling simple tickets is a valid reason for them to not know about more complex ones. Yet the point here is not that the clerk didn't know, the point is that he refused to believe that there may be a gap in his knowledge. This is unacceptable and is more than a mistake.

Yet if I, by mistake, forget to date my Carnet before boarding one of First Capital Connect's trains, I might be prosecuted. Even if the reason for forgetting to date the ticket is that I've been sat in the office all day doing boring work.