Gold Card First Class Supplements

[jon0844]

I know these have been discussed in other threads, but I couldn't find a specific thread about it.

Having decided to skip the Network Railcard and go for the cheapest Gold Card season, today was the first time in some years that I attempted to get first class upgrades for a family day out, from Stevenage to Cambridge.

Fair enough, first class on FCC isn't all that - and it was only a 40-odd minute journey, but at just £5 each for both ways, it seemed worthwhile as a one-off.

But, things didn't quite go to plan.

Despite arriving at Stevenage with over 10 minutes to spare, we had to get our train (or wait a further 30 minutes), without the supplements.

Why? Because apparently you can't get them! Or, should I say, you can but only if your Gold Card is for the same route you're wishing to travel first class.

And, apparently there was no first class fare for the route anyway.

Now, it's fine for a member of staff in the ticket office to not know everything - so I attempted to explain what it was, and asked him to double check with whatever paperwork he had, The Manual, the NRCoC etc.

But no, I was wrong and he'd had all the training thank you very much. And when I said, as politely as possible while being incredibly frustrated and having people behind me who were likely getting rather upset too, he was wrong - that was it. Suddenly the other two members of staff closed ranks and told me that I was totally wrong and that I shouldn't be questioning someone that has been trained and knows what's what.

Of course, none of them would go and check.. and the man dealing with me then went on about an example of me having a season to King's Cross (I assumed he figured that's what I had, as he never looked at it to see) and that I'd need to buy a new ticket before I could upgrade. I can't for the life of me see what the relevance of that comment was, as I was buying a new ticket anyway.

I asked if he was confused by the rule in the week that a season ticket holder can't get a first class upgrade on an existing season and must buy a new discounted ticket, and that confused him even more.

Ultimately, I had no choice but to bow out (after noting his name) and just buy standard class tickets.

As I approached the gate, I asked the RPI there and he said a first class supplement was valid anywhere in the former NSE area and valid all day. He then apologised and said he'd go over on his break and clear things up, although there was no time to help us then.

I pointed out that I accepted the original person might not have known what it was, or how to issue it, but what angered me most was the refusal to listen to what I was saying, or make any attempt to check. The fact his colleagues just jumped to his aide (presumably thinking that I'm just some d***head customer that hasn't got a clue) was also frustrating, making me look like some sort of arrogant idiot in front of those waiting behind me.

I assume you can't buy a Gold Card FC supplement from any online booking systems to pick up at a TVM, so it seems like I'm going to have lots of fun and games if I ever decide again to take advantage of it for future (and possibly longer) journeys.

There was also one thing I never got around to asking given how much time had been wasted already.. if you travel with a child under 5 (under 2 in our case) and both adults have a first class ticket, does the child need to buy the child first class supplement (£2.50) or still get to travel free with an adult with a FC ticket? Or, does the under 5 always need a first class ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

Under 5s travel free on the understanding that they won't occupy a seat if others need it. Therefore I'd be surprised if they need an upgrade.

 

[jon0844]

I thought so too, but I want to make sure. Not that I expect a 23 month old baby can get a penalty fare, or worse.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I thought so too, but I want to make sure. Not that I expect a 23 month old baby can get a penalty fare, or worse.

Bearing in mind you're talking about FCC here, so they're just as likely to try for a prosecution under RoRA

 

[Be3G]

Most frustrating. If we had trouble getting these supplements from a ticket office we used to just sit in first class and the guard would happily sell the required upgrade. However, that was years ago, before I discovered this forum and realised that would have potentially made us liable for prosecution!

 

[jon0844]

On a DOO train, I would not dream of trying to upgrade if 'caught', or argue that the refusal at Stevenage counted as there being no prior ability to buy it. Chances are, had we done this and been caught, the people at Stevenage would claim they could have sold it but weren't asked!

As it turned out, the train was a 317 so the worst possible first class on FCC.

I don't know how much FCC would keep of the £5 but it was 'easy money' that it lost out on.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't know how much FCC would keep of the £5 but it was 'easy money' that it lost out on.

For a journey from Stevenage to Hitchin, I'd assume they'd keep the lot. Do East Coast still have a Travel Centre there, or is that staffed by FCC as well now?

 

[jon0844]

I realised after that EC does still have a travel centre. Bet they could have sold it!

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

 

[transmanche]

For a journey from Stevenage to Hitchin, I'd assume they'd keep the lot.

But the Gold Card first class upgrade is valid throughout the Network area - basically you buy the upgrade ticket and it's valid all day.

 

[Hadders]

I can confirm that Stevenage station does still have an East Coast travel centre.

The staff are generally excellent and I would be surprised if they couldn't issue a Gold Card supplement.

 

[Bishopstone]

The cynic in me suspects TOCs don't train their staff on the Gold Card FC upgrade, because they'd like to abolish it or at least increase the price/restrict the availability to weekends. We went through this with the All Line Rover, of course, with ignorant staff (in the literal, not abusive sense), zero marketing and consequent low sales, whereupon the benefits were significantly reduced in respect of long-haul travel to and from London.

I find most clerks/commercial guards deny the existence of the Gold Card FC upgrade, or confuse it with TOC-specific Weekend First arrangements. The exception to this rule is SWT, where I have always been able to buy the supplement without issue at Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

Last summer I tried to get the upgrade with an Exeter - London (route Honiton) single, from the fGW booking office at Exeter St Davids. They were adamant I was talking nonsense and declined to consult the manuals, so I left with just the Standard ticket.

I asked the SWT guard before boarding if he could sell me the upgrade, and he was happy for me to sit in First whilst he sorted it out. As it happens, he knew of the upgrade but couldn't remember how to issue it (another common problem), but somewhere mid-journey asked the driver - a former commercial guard - and between them they worked it out. I sent an email of thanks to SWT.

 

[Hadders]

A print out of the relevant page might also assist with staff who deny the existance of the Gold Card 1st class upgrade.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx#Gold_Card_First_Supplement

 

[alastair]

I don't have a "Ryde" Gold Card anymore due to my changing travel patterns but when I did have one,the FC supplement issue was very hit and miss. In SWT land where I live,staff constantly muddled it up with the SWT FC £5 upgrade which can only be bought on the train and crucially is only for a one way journey and at weekends. Staff at Reading ticket office also totally denied its existence.

It is frustrating,I suppose the truth is that TOC's have absolutely no motivation to train their staff on this deal,its a hangover from the NSE era and no doubt they would love to withdraw it(along with the Network Card)if they thought they could get away with it.

The annoying thing is that if anyone could be bothered to programme TVM's the facility could easily be made available everywhere,the TVM would simply need to pick up Gold Card and First Class and calculate the fare and supplement accordingly. A few years ago I put that point to SWT and not surprisingly their answer was they "did not plan" to do this.

It would be interesting to hear from TOC staff who post here why it can be so very difficult to buy this product,and how you should deal with a staff member like the hapless FCC gang described.

 

[TonyR]

Getting a Gold Card First Class Supplement off FCC is next to impossible. Most of their ticket office staff have no idea how to issue one and the portable machines on their trains are no longer capable of issuing them. I usually end up sitting in First Class without the supplement as the supplement is effectively not available through poor training but that should not mean I can not use a service to which I am entitled. I have had extensive correspondence with FCC who keep saying they will train their staff but it never gets any better.

A question for the experts here. How hard do you have to try to buy a supplement. At my departure station nobody ever knows how to issue one (I always ask though when buying just in case a miracle has happened). The staff on the train are not able to issue one. When I get to Kings Cross I have found that very few of the ticket counter staff know how to issue one. Do I just travel without it having tried unsuccessfully to buy one at the start or am I expected to spend my journey stopping at every single ticket window at every station I detrain at on the outward and return journey in the hope I might find someone who knows how to issue one? Given my experiences to date that would be an awful lot of time standing around in queues to see if anyone is able.

 

[Tibbs]

Rather amusingly - I was told that gold card upgrades are specifically NOT valid on the route on which I was travelling!

When I asked SWT when I was travelling from London to Dorchester splitting at BZ6 (or somewhere close by, Surbiton?) I was told that my upgrade wasn't valid on the area covered by my season.

LM also told me that I could only use Gold Card First upgrades for myself, and not for the people with whom I was travelling. How many were in your group?

 

[cjohnson]

Rather amusingly - I was told that gold card upgrades are specifically NOT valid on the route on which I was travelling!

When I asked SWT when I was travelling from London to Dorchester splitting at BZ6 (or somewhere close by, Surbiton?) I was told that my upgrade wasn't valid on the area covered by my season.

I think that's correct (when travelling Monday-Friday - no such restrictions at weekends). NRE says "Gold Cards may be able to benefit from the Gold Card First Supplement, if they are not travelling on the journey covered by their Annual Gold Card Season Ticket or Travelcard."

 

[TCDD]

I would echo a lot of what other contributors have said. Getting a Gold Card First Class supplement in FCC land is nigh-on impossible. In fact I have tried many times and hardly ever succeeded (except after 25 minutes at the Kings Cross East Coast travel centre). In contrast I have rarely had problems on SWT, except where just once I was issued a 'weekend upgrade' instead.

 

[jon0844]

Can anyone who works for FCC or uses the same systems say how to actually issue one? As in what to enter on the keyboard and search for?

Perhaps the next step is to try and guide staff through the process until they find the ticket. Of course that will probably get their backs up ('how dare you tell me my job') and still have them refuse to sell it.. but hopefully some might sell it and say 'well, if you get done, don't blame me' which will be good enough!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: Didn't it used to be the case that for Standard Class Gold Card holders, first class upgrades were not available from Monday to Friday (except bank holidays) wholly or partly over the route covered by the Gold Card season unless a separate discounted ticket for the whole journey being undertaken (as well as the upgrade) had been bought for use by the Gold Card holder?

 

[philjo]

I tried to buy one last year. My local FCC GN station was not able to sell it as it was not appearing as an option on her ticket machine for the particular ticket I had asked for. it would let her issue one for the CDR but not for the SVR I wanted (as I was coming back on a different day).
FCC ticket office at Blackfriars had no ideas what I was talking about.
In the end I decided to pay on the train (as I was using it for the HST from Paddington to Worcester).
the TM eventually managed to issue one for the outward journey on his machine - though it took him about 15 minutes to do so.
return journey: After leaving Worcester the TM initially thought I meant weekend 1st (I was travelling on a Monday) then once clarified I meant the gold card supplement he didn't know how to issue it - he said he would find out & get back to me - he never returned!

 

[Paul Kelly]

:roll: Didn't it used to be the case that for Standard Class Gold Card holders, first class upgrades were not available from Monday to Friday (except bank holidays) wholly or partly over the route covered by the Gold Card season unless a separate discounted ticket for the whole journey being undertaken (as well as the upgrade) had been bought for use by the Gold Card holder?

That is true. But this restriction is completely irrelevant to passengers who have bought a Ryde, Newhaven or Pevensey Gold Card with no intention of using it over that route!

 

[jon0844]

:roll: Didn't it used to be the case that for Standard Class Gold Card holders, first class upgrades were not available from Monday to Friday (except bank holidays) wholly or partly over the route covered by the Gold Card season unless a separate discounted ticket for the whole journey being undertaken (as well as the upgrade) had been bought for use by the Gold Card holder?

Yes, it still is the case that in the week, you cannot upgrade to first class on any part of the route your ticket is currently valid for. In other words, you'll need to buy a new ticket - in the week - as your current season (when used with a supplement) is worthless. Those travelling with you will obviously have to buy tickets anyway.

The guy at Stevenage was, sort of, trying to say something like this but was obviously rather confused. He also made an assumption that my Gold Card must have been from Stevenage to London, not Cambridge (although it's neither) but in any case, it was a Saturday so that whole discussion was pointless - especially when I kept saying I knew what he was trying to say, but it was irrelevant.

When I had my Hatfield to London ticket, if I ever wanted to upgrade to first class in the week, I'd have needed to buy a Gold card discounted single/return and the supplement. Given supplements aren't valid during 1600-1900 (or thereabouts) from London stations, and FCC have so many trains with FC declassified - I, funnily enough, never took advantage.

But now, when I have the IOW Gold Card, I have to buy a ticket every time I travel into London and so even in the week I might sometimes upgrade if my travel is going to cover other parts of London or the NSE area (and I'm coming back outside of the evening peak). However, I can't see myself having much luck in ever getting one unless there's an easy way to get the ticket office staff to find and sell it.

It would seem that if FCC ever issues any sort of bulletin/training update to staff (and I am writing to FCC about it) then it needs to include instructions, so staff can be referred to 'bulletin nnn'.

 

[LowLevel]

It seems a bit ridiculous, especially as I'm just doing my retail training for a generally maligned TOC ticketing wise (on board guard) and I've been taught about Gold Card upgrades/supplements/benefits and how to deal with them, despite the fact my TOC doesn't accept the supplement (ex Intercity rather than NSE) and rarely has to deal with them. It's all in my ticket examiner's handbook.

 

[jon0844]

What gets me is that it's not even worth getting rid of the supplement. It's easy money, and at weekends when you can actually find many services very busy, it's not a bad thing to have some people who would otherwise be in standard fill up the fresh air that is in first.

I can't imagine there ever being a case where so many people would upgrade via this method (they need to be annual season ticket users for one) that first class would become too crowded. And if there's no first class on a service, the TOC doesn't need to give any sort of refund.

It's a win win situation, so far from failing to advertise it and let it gradually die a slow and painful death, TOCs should be promoting it. It might just help convince some people to trade up from buying monthly tickets - another win.

That is unless someone can think of a good reason for keeping them hidden?

 

[Be3G]

I echo your thoughts Jon. The £5 (even £3 once upon a time!) first class upgrade was one of our favourite gold card benefits. Weekend 1st never seems worthwhile for multi-TOC journeys, but £5 to upgrade us on every train for a day? Perfect. We bought quite a few of them, so it was definitely a case of the railways making extra money from us that they wouldn't have otherwise received.

 

[class303]

Can anyone who works for FCC or uses the same systems say how to actually issue one? As in what to enter on the keyboard and search for?

Perhaps the next step is to try and guide staff through the process until they find the ticket. Of course that will probably get their backs up ('how dare you tell me my job') and still have them refuse to sell it.. but hopefully some might sell it and say 'well, if you get done, don't blame me' which will be good enough!

I think RJ is your man. he knows how to do it with his TOC apparently. no idea if his TOC uses the same system as FCC though...... :roll:

 

[drbdrb]

It would seem that if FCC ever issues any sort of bulletin/training update to staff

FCC train its counter staff, don't be silly.

I have had FCC counter staff tell me tickets are not valid on trains that they are, despite their own screens telling them that what they are saying is nonsense.

I have had FCC counter staff refuse to sell advance tickets on the basis that something must be wrong as are too cheap to be correct, again despite their own screens telling them.

These days I have now given up, and just buy the tickets online, and only deal with them when I really really have to.

 

[lj9090]

Is there any reason these get printed with "OUT" on them? Only time I've got one I got a comment from the guard on the return that it wasn't valid but he'd let me stay there anyway...

Not looking forward to getting another one incase I have to argue that point.

 

[Bishopstone]

Is there any reason these get printed with "OUT" on them? Only time I've got one I got a comment from the guard on the return that it wasn't valid but he'd let me stay there anyway...

Not looking forward to getting another one incase I have to argue that point.

I've been pulled up by guards on that point, on a few occasions. False parallels have been made with Weekend First supplements, which are valid only for single journeys.

 

[James Wake]

So I could buy a Gold Card supplement on my own Gold Card route at weekends only? I have had a few 1st supplements, one being a proper Gold Card one on a PTC to WAT service, issued by a Fratton guard (I think) called Tony (again, I think). He said something about it being not obvious and it was under something called NFA. I still have the ticket as proof.
On the other hand, on New Years Day, I was heading to Winchester from CLJ, and first class on my train from Clapham was reversed , so sat in there going down, guard (Indian guy) came round, I asked for a Gold Card one as before and got a weekend first. I didn't really want to argue so let it go, and I would speak to the guard on the way back. 1st back was very busy, previous train terminated at Eastleigh, so footy fans onboard. Got a seat in second row from front, but guard never came round. I was glad I had the peaceful journey down, but they weren't too noisy. I was not expecting it to be busy, could it have been declassified?