Going "up north" "open jaw"

[kkgbd2223]

Hello,

A group of 10 people, all adults (you would think!) are making an "open jaw" return journey as follows:

Outward:
Friday afternoon in September London to Carlisle

Return:
Tuesday afternoon in September Newcastle to London

We will all be making our own way between Carlisle and Newcastle (i.e. not by train).

I have put some effort into finding the most appropriate fares myself, but as expected, this got a bit complicated hence I thought I'd ask the experts....

I got the following options:
1. Travel out and return via Newcastle using Advance Purchase tickets:
£87.50 per person without a railcard
£57.75 per person with a railcard (2 together)

This appears to be the cheapest option, though travelling to Carlisle via Newcastle adds nearly 2 hours over taking the direct train from London Euston to Carlisle.

2. Travel out and return on direct trains
I got 3 fare options:
"Super Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Hexham (Any Permitted) priced at £136.00 per person (£89.75 with 2 together)

"Super Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Carlisle (via Newcastle) priced at £136.50 (£90.10 with 2 together)

"Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Carlisle (Any Permitted - but forced via Newcastle in the NR Journey planner) priced at £116.60 (£76.95 with 2 together)

I spent an unhealthy amount of time reading the ATOC Routeing Guide (horrible set of documents), I am unclear on the validity of the above tickets. Specifically:

The fare priced at £116.60 I don't believe is valid via Newcastle even though the NR Journey planner says it is. The Routeing Guide doesn't show a valid route from London to Carlisle via Newcastle and there is a specific fare via Newcastle priced at £136.50. Is this correct? Is this fare not valid via Newcastle?

The fare to/from Hexham, the Routeing Guide shows this as valid by both Newcastle and Carlisle, however, Virgin Trains website says it isn’t.

The fare priced at £136.50, I assume is only valid via Newcastle so can’t be used Euston to Carlisle? Is that correct?

There is also an assortment of advance purchase tickets at:

Advance purchase
£111 without railcard
£73.30 with railcard

3. Travel out and return via Carlisle using Advance Purchase tickets:
£92.80 with railcard
£61.25 per person with railcard

Again inconvenient as it adds over an hour to the return journey from Newcastle to London going via Carlisle

Questions:
1. I know Virgin Trains won’t accept Group Save, is using the “two together railcard” the best option (i.e. we’d need to buy 5 of them)?
2. Is there another ticket combination that’s a bit cheaper, or another way of doing this?
3. Are my concerns about the validity of the other tickets correct?

Many thanks.

 

[Muzer]

Hello,

A group of 10 people, all adults (you would think!) are making an "open jaw" return journey as follows:

Outward:
Friday afternoon in September London to Carlisle

Return:
Tuesday afternoon in September Newcastle to London

We will all be making our own way between Carlisle and Newcastle (i.e. not by train).

I have put some effort into finding the most appropriate fares myself, but as expected, this got a bit complicated hence I thought I'd ask the experts....

I got the following options:
1. Travel out and return via Newcastle using Advance Purchase tickets:
£87.50 per person without a railcard
£57.75 per person with a railcard (2 together)

This appears to be the cheapest option, though travelling to Carlisle via Newcastle adds nearly 2 hours over taking the direct train from London Euston to Carlisle.

2. Travel out and return on direct trains
I got 3 fare options:
"Super Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Hexham (Any Permitted) priced at £136.00 per person (£89.75 with 2 together)

"Super Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Carlisle (via Newcastle) priced at £136.50 (£90.10 with 2 together)

"Off-Peak Return" London Terminals to Carlisle (Any Permitted - but forced via Newcastle in the NR Journey planner) priced at £116.60 (£76.95 with 2 together)

I spent an unhealthy amount of time reading the ATOC Routeing Guide (horrible set of documents), I am unclear on the validity of the above tickets. Specifically:

The fare priced at £116.60 I don't believe is valid via Newcastle even though the NR Journey planner says it is. The Routeing Guide doesn't show a valid route from London to Carlisle via Newcastle and there is a specific fare via Newcastle priced at £136.50. Is this correct? Is this fare not valid via Newcastle?

I can't see how it could be valid via Newcastle. Could there be an easement for the day you're travelling, though? For instance, there's this:

700720 (Map): During engineering works in preparation for HS2, on the 26 and 27 August 2017,
customers travelling to Penrith, who would normally travel from London Euston, may
travel via London Kings Cross, York, Newcastle and Carlisle. This map easement applies
in both directions.

But if you can get National Rail Enquiries to give you a valid itinerary, it is considered valid regardless (this has been confirmed to members of this forum multiple times, and I believe statements to this effect can nowadays be found in the routeing guide and/or the Conditions of Travel). I'd HIGHLY recommend printing off your itinerary (or even getting seat reservations for maximum safety!) if you choose to go this route.

Worth pointing out that this fare also prohibits break of journey on the outward portion only. Don't think this should matter for this trip but it could matter if you wanted to do the reverse at some stage (ie outwards to Newcastle).

However, see my comments on excesses below.

The fare to/from Hexham, the Routeing Guide shows this as valid by both Newcastle and Carlisle, however, Virgin Trains website says it isn’t.

I agree that this is valid, and what's more, I don't think any reasonable guard would object to it, either.

The fare priced at £136.50, I assume is only valid via Newcastle so can’t be used Euston to Carlisle? Is that correct?

In theory, yes. But in practice, I believe that when travelling on a ticket with the wrong route, but where a correctly-routed fare for the same journey exists, you are entitled to purchase an excess fare for the journey. This means you could buy this one and get a zero-fare excess (most guards in practice wouldn't issue it, in my experience, and would just let you go), or you could buy the other one (the Any Permitted) and pay half the difference between the fares to excess one leg to the Via Newcastle fare. See National Rail Conditions of Travel 13.4.


IMHO your method of least likely faff would be getting the Hexham tickets.


As for your final questions, I'll leave those to someone else.

 

[Romilly]

An alternative to the Hexham tickets would be London-Haymarket super offpeak returns at £138 if the times worked for you.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This appears to be the cheapest option, though travelling to Carlisle via Newcastle adds nearly 2 hours over taking the direct train from London Euston to Carlisle.


Advance tickets are Singles, so you could buy tickets for a specific train Euston to Carlisle and for a specific train Newcastle to Kings Cross.

 

[OwlMan]

Have you contacted VTEC & VTWC about group tickets for 10 or more people - they sometimes have good offers?

 

[Hadders]

Why not buy the Any Permitted London Terminals-Carlisle Super Off Peak Teturn and excess the return portion to 'Via Newcastle' which will cost half the difference between the two fares. It is Permitted to start the return journey short at Newcastle.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why not buy the Any Permitted London Terminals-Carlisle Super Off Peak Teturn and excess the return portion to 'Via Newcastle' which will cost half the difference between the two fares. It is Permitted to start the return journey short at Newcastle.

This seems the sensible option


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Hadders]

This seems the sensible option

The excess can be purchased on board the train at the same price...

 

[mrmartin]

Afiak there is no super off peak London to Carlisle any permitted. Just off peak.

 

[Hadders]

Afiak there is no super off peak London to Carlisle any permitted. Just off peak.

To be clear, purchase the Off Peak Return from London Terminals to Carlisle (route Any permitted) costing £116.60. Use the outward portion to travel from Euston to Carlisle (any train from Euston after 0905).

Obtain a change of route excess on the return portion to the Super Off Peak Return (route Via Newcastle). This excess will cost £9.95. Use this ticket to make the return journey from Newcastle. As travel is on a Sunday any train can be used with this ticket.

There is no obligation to purchase the excess in advance, it can be obtained onboard the train for the same price.

 

[Haywain]

There is no obligation to purchase the excess in advance, it can be obtained onboard the train for the same price.

However, with 10 people travelling I would imagine the guard may be grateful for it being done before boarding.

 

[kkgbd2223]

Thank you everyone for your replies, hugely appreciated.

So I get the options:
1. Phone Virgin and ask if they will do a group deal, if not...
2. Buy the "off peak return London to Carlisle any permitted" priced at £116.60. The NR Journey Planner does show this ticket as valid via Newcastle and ATOC state:
"Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.", if not....
3. Buy that ticket anyway, and pay the excess which is £9.95 per person. If not....
4. Buy the ticket "Super Off-Peak London to Hexham return Any Permitted" priced at £136.60

With any of the options, the 2 together railcard will get a 1/3rd off. The 1/3rd off is more than the cost of the railcard making it worth it. The "pairs" of people on the railcard must travel together at all times.

Thanks.

 

[Hadders]

However, with 10 people travelling I would imagine the guard may be grateful for it being done before boarding.

Many guards would like the commission and there is a chance that the guard will simply accept the ticket anyway, the worst scenario is having to pay a change of route excess.

 

[cuccir]

With any of the options, the 2 together railcard will get a 1/3rd off. The 1/3rd off is more than the cost of the railcard making it worth it. The "pairs" of people on the railcard must travel together at all times.

Thanks.

If any of you have any Clubcard vouchers kicking about, you can get a token code for a Railcard for £15 worth of vouchers online via Tesco.

 

[BlueFox]

As travel is on a Sunday any train can be used with this ticket.

The OP says it will be a Tuesday, not a Sunday.

 

[Flying Snail]

Thank you everyone for your replies, hugely appreciated.

So I get the options:
1. Phone Virgin and ask if they will do a group deal, if not...
2. Buy the "off peak return London to Carlisle any permitted" priced at £116.60. The NR Journey Planner does show this ticket as valid via Newcastle and ATOC state:
"Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.", if not....
3. Buy that ticket anyway, and pay the excess which is £9.95 per person. If not....
4. Buy the ticket "Super Off-Peak London to Hexham return Any Permitted" priced at £136.60

With any of the options, the 2 together railcard will get a 1/3rd off. The 1/3rd off is more than the cost of the railcard making it worth it. The "pairs" of people on the railcard must travel together at all times.

Thanks.

In your first post the Advance ticket options you gave were for booking a "return". This was an error on your part as while the websites allow this as a shortcut for people booking simple out and back journeys between two stations it is not suitable for the direct services for the triangular journey you are making.

Advances are priced per single journey, asking for a "return" just adds two singles for the chosen times and stations.

You need to price separate Advance singles, one for London-Carlisle and the other for Newcastle-London for your required times to see if they are cheaper than the options you have been given by previous posters. As you haven't given specific dates nobody here can accurately price them for you.

If they are cheaper and you are happy to be tied to a specific departure in both directions then go for the Advance, if you want flexibility then one of the above options would be better.

 

[kkgbd2223]

Hi all,

Thanks again for your help. The AP fares I quoted were for singles for each journey, not for a return.

Unforunately, the PA went ahead and booked AP tickets priced at just over £99 despite the advice I gave her to buy the £116.60 fare and use the "2 together" railcard. I take it these tickets are now non-refundable? I'll check with her.

Thanks,