Going off-route during disruption

[plannerman]

Hi all,

A colleague and I were travelling south from Dundee on 6th October, and we got caught in disruption on the WCML because of line problems at Winsford. The Voyager ex-Edinburgh was on time until Preston, where we sat for a while before the TM announced that we were facing an indefinite delay.

I was travelling Dundee-Bache, and my itinerary was Dundee-Haymarket-Crewe-Chester-Bache. My colleague was travelling Dundee-Broad Green, same route as me but change in Wigan from the WCML.

Although we had seat reservations for the specific trains we travelled on, I think the tickets were open returns, if that's relevant.

Anyway, both having a bit of railway route knowledge, we bailed off the Voyager and routed ourselves Preston-Ormskirk-Liverpool, where my colleague went to Lime Street for Broad Green and I carried on to Bache.

So I guess my question is - firstly on a Dundee-Bache ticket, is routeing Dundee-Haymarket-Preston-Ormskirk-Liverpool-Bache ok under normal circumstances? And if not, do the railway apply a bit of common sense and allow people to find alternatives in the event of disruption?

These might be daft questions, but I don't travel by rail much any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should have added that these questions weren't answered en-route because the only ticket check we had post-Preston was on the Preston-Ormskirk, where the guard simply asked 'where's Bash?' and then shrugged when we asked if we were ok to be on that train.

 

[cuccir]

On my phone so not in a position to check routeing guide. But in response to the generic question: there's no 'right' to go off route during disruptions, only a duty for the TOCs, collectively, to allow you to continue your journey where possible. If this involves reasyonably going off route then it should be allowed, but what is deemed reasonable depends on circumstances eg duration of disruption, extent of travelling diversion, availability of rail replacement buses etc.

Ideally you're better off seeking assurances from staff before boarding a train, but even then staff should so flexibility.

I'm sure the precise guidelines to staff have been posted on this site before....

 

[yorkie]

So I guess my question is - firstly on a Dundee-Bache ticket, is routeing Dundee-Haymarket-Preston-Ormskirk-Liverpool-Bache ok under normal circumstances?

I'd be shocked if it wasn't. It's certainly "reasonable" (the old rule!) and therefore guards will accept it regardless (not many guards can look up/remember each route in the Routeing Guide for every ticket they inspect!).

Dundee is a Routeing Point (RP).

Bache has two associated RPs: Hooton and Chester. Both pass the fares check rule.

Valid Routes from Dundee [DEE] to Bache [BAC]:

1. Direct trains (none in this case, Dundee to Bache)
2. Shortest Route is likely to be 294.25 miles (plus any route up to 3 miles longer)
   • Dundee
   • Leuchars (for St. Andrews)
   • Kirkcaldy
   • Inverkeithing
   • Haymarket
   • Carstairs
   • Lockerbie
   • Carlisle
   • Penrith (North Lakes)
   • Oxenholme Lake District
   • Lancaster
   • Preston (Lancs)
   • Leyland
   • Euxton Balshaw Lane
   • Wigan North Western
   • Warrington Bank Quay
   • Runcorn East
   • Frodsham
   • Helsby
   • Chester
   • Bache
3. Mapped Routes:
   Dundee - Chester:
   • FD + CG
   • FD + CG + CL
   • FD + CG + ML
   • FD + WG + CP
   • GA + CG
   • GA + CG + CL
   • GA + CG + ML
   • GA + WG + CP
   • ZZ + CH
   • ZZ + CP
   
   
   Dundee - Hooton:
   
   • FD + WG + CL
   • FD + WG + CP
   • FD + WG + ML
   • GA + WG + CL
   • GA + WG + CP
   • GA + WG + ML

The Ormskirk route is shown on map CP

 

[John @ home]

The shortest route between Dundee and Bache includes travel between Preston and Ormskirk, so it is most certainly allowed. The shortest route is always a Permitted Route.

Distance: 291mi 06ch

Route: Dundee, Dundee Central Junction, Leuchars, Cupar, Springfield, Ladybank, Markinch, Thornton North Junction, Thornton South Junction, Kirkcaldy, Kinghorn, Burntisland, Aberdour, Dalgety Bay, Inverkeithing East Junction, Inverkeithing, North Queensferry, Dalmeny, South Gyle, Haymarket West Junction, Gorgie Junction, Craiglockhart Junction, Slateford Junction, Slateford, Kingsknowe, Wester Hailes, Curriehill, Kaimes Ground Frame, Kirknewton, Midcalder Junction, Torphin, Cobbinshaw, Auchengray, Carstairs East Junction, Carstairs South Junction, Symington Ground Frame, Abington, Elvanfoot, Beattock, Wamphray Ground Frame, Nethercleugh, Lockerbie, Ecclefechan, Kirtlebridge Ground Frame, Quintinshill, Gretna Junction, Mossband, Floriston, Kingmoor Junction, Caldew Junction, Carlisle, Carlisle Upperby Junction, Southwaite, Plumpton Long Ashes, Penrith, Penrith South Junction, Clifton & Lowther, Shap Harrisons Sidings, Hardendale Quarry, Shap Summit, Tebay, Lowgill, Grayrigg, Lambrigg, Oxenholme Lake District, Milnthorpe, Carnforth North Junction, Hest Bank, Morecambe South Junction, Lancaster, Oubeck Goods Loop, Bay Horse, Garstang & Catteral, Barton & Broughton Passenger Loop, Preston Fylde Junction, Preston (Lancs), Preston South Junction, Preston Skew Bridge, Farington Curve Junction, Croston, Rufford, Burscough Junction, Ormskirk, Aughton Park, Town Green, Maghull, Old Roan, Aintree, Orrell Park, Walton (Merseyside), Walton Junction, Kirkdale, Sandhills, Moorfields (Northern line station), Liverpool Central, Liverpool James Street, Mann Island Junction, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Birkenhead Central, Green Lane, Rock Ferry, Bebington, Port Sunlight, Spital, Bromborough Rake, Bromborough, Eastham Rake, Hooton, Capenhurst, Bache

http://www.mileage.railmiles.org/

 

[yorkie]

Railmiles includes freight only lines but arguably a line that is shorter than the shortest route by regular services must be valid ( as it is less than 3 miles.longer!) But I do not believe freight only lines can possibly *define* the shortest route.

 

[John @ home]

I do not believe freight only lines can possibly *define* the shortest route.

Agreed. But railmiles gives a good starting point for the calculation, and one that I think is sufficient in the case of Dundee - Bache to be confident that Preston - Ormskirk forms part of the shortest route. In this instance,

• plannerman is likely to have followed the railmiles route from Dundee to South Gyle
• from there to Slateford, the passenger route via Haymarket is 1 mile 2 chains longer than the freight route
• plannerman is likely to have followed the railmiles route from Slateford to Preston
• from Preston to Bache, plannerman's route via Crewe is 28 miles 78 chains longer than the railmiles route, which for this part of the journey uses passenger routes only.

I think I can therefore say that the shortest Dundee to Bache route served by passenger trains is:

Dundee - Kirkcaldy - Haymarket 58 miles (Table 229)
Haymarket - avoiding Carstairs - Lockerbie 75 miles (Table 65)
Lockerbie - Carlisle - Preston 115.25 miles (Table 65)
Preston - Ormskirk 15 miles (Table 99)
Ormskirk - Liverpool Central 12.75 miles (Table 103)
Liverpool Central - Bache 15.75 miles (Table 106)
Total 291.75 miles

railmiles gives Dundee to Bache via Haymarket as 292 miles 8 chains. Bache to Dundee is a little shorter due to the one-way Liverpool loop.