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GOBLIN to Thameslink

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rethink

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Would it not make sense to restore the connection between GOBLIN and Kentish Town to be able to route some Thameslink trains via GOBLIN? Previously the GOBLIN line went to Moorgate. Presently, certain Thameslink trains terminate at Kentish Town. Obviously, there is limited capacity due to the line being shared with freight. Does anyone know why this service needs to be active throughout the day and cannot be moved to off hours?

Thank you.
 
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JonathanH

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Would it not make sense to restore the connection between GOBLIN and Kentish Town to be able to route some Thameslink trains via GOBLIN?
No, not really. If the junction at Kentish Town could be restored, it would be a flat junction restricting capacity. The platforms on the line to Barking Riverside aren't long enough for Thameslink trains. The Gospel Oak to Barking line is an orbital route rather than one going into Central London, so connections at Gospel Oak are more useful than a roundabout route into Central London.

Previously the GOBLIN line went to Moorgate.
Did it? I thought the trains terminated at St Pancras or Kentish Town.

Presently, certain Thameslink trains terminate at Kentish Town.
That is neither here nor there. The connection to Upper Holloway is built on.

Obviously, there is limited capacity due to the line being shared with freight. Does anyone know why this service needs to be active throughout the day and cannot be moved to off hours?
It avoids the trains having to go via Stratford. Why shouldn't freight run on this route?

Anyway, who do you think has a worse service because of the Gospel Oak to Barking line having freight on it and terminating at Gospel Oak. Most of the stations are a short walk from services into Central London - eg Archway, Harringay, Manor House, Seven Sisters, Walthamstow Central, Leyton, Leytonstone, Forest Gate etc.
 

Basil Jet

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No, not really. If the junction at Kentish Town could be restored, it would be a flat junction restricting capacity.

Given that there is a flat junction at Blackfriars where the entire Thameslink service splits, a flat junction on either branch north of the St Pancras flying junction doesn't seem like a show-stopper.

The Gospel Oak to Barking line is an orbital route rather than one going into Central London, so connections at Gospel Oak are more useful than a roundabout route into Central London.

Barking to Tottenham is an orbital route, but Tottenham to Gospel Oak is radial - a straight line from Tottenham Hale to Paddington is not that far off it. If you connect Wimbledon - Earls Court - Edgware Road - (new tunnel) - Upper Holloway - South Tottenham - (reinstated track) - Tottenham Hale - Broxbourne, it is not far off a straight line. A Thameslink route to Stansted via Kentish Town is a little circuitous but it's not terrible. Thameslink to Barking... probably not.

The connection to Upper Holloway is built on.
Where? Google suggests not.
 

JonathanH

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Where? Google suggests not.
Isn't there (from memory) some kind of van parking facility on the curve?

Tottenham to Gospel Oak is radial - a straight line from Tottenham Hale to Paddington is not that far off it. If you connect Wimbledon - Earls Court - Edgware Road - (new tunnel) - Upper Holloway - South Tottenham - (reinstated track) - Tottenham Hale - Broxbourne, it is not far off a straight line.
That is quite a leap from the OP's original idea. Interesting idea, but perhaps too far away from the lucrative bits of London travel to be truly useful.

A Thameslink route to Stansted via Kentish Town is a little circuitous but it's not terrible.
Maybe but still a bit contorted
 
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zwk500

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The biggest issue would look to be platform length. LO trains are currently 100m long, Thameslink are 240m long. To extend Upper Holloway platforms would mean reconstructing the Holloway Road overbridge or abolishing the goods loop. Crouch Hill requires either Crouch Hill Road or Mount Pleasant Villas bridges to be rebuilt, Harringay Green lanes requires an accomodation underbridge to be rebuilt, South Tottenham would require a Bridge reconstruction and the junction at the east end moving. Blackhorse Rd requires a slither of school playing field, Walthamstown Queens Road and Leyton Midland Road both require one or t'other bridges at either end reconstructed, Wanstead park again 1/2 bridges rebuilt, and Barking Riverside. Leytonstone High Road is the only station that looks to be able to take 12-car platforms without any problems. Several stations could avoid bridge reconstruction by only taking 8-car trains, but then you are limited in which Thameslink trains you could send through to the GOBLIN.
8-Car trains are 160m long, so you'd still be nearly doubling the length of every platform on the Line. You'd also have to check the signal spacing and headways, train standage at junctions etc. There's a lot more to running trains than just having physical tracks.

There is also the question of reducing capacity on the MML to give to the GOBLIN. Which patterns are you diverting and is that a good use of the trains to provide circuitous capacity to North london rather than being able to shuttle people in from St Albans, Luton or Bedford?
Given that there is a flat junction at Blackfriars where the entire Thameslink service splits, a flat junction on either branch north of the St Pancras flying junction doesn't seem like a show-stopper.
It may not be a show stopper but it doesn't help performance.
Isn't there (from memory) some kind of van parking facility on the curve?
There is a car park but it's not a structure.
 

Bald Rick

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Would it not make sense to restore the connection between GOBLIN and Kentish Town to be able to route some Thameslink trains via GOBLIN?

No, it wouldn’t.


Given that there is a flat junction at Blackfriars where the entire Thameslink service splits, a flat junction on either branch north of the St Pancras flying junction doesn't seem like a show-stopper.

It might be a show stopper. There are numerous constraints to the Thameslink timetable, number one of which is that flat junction at Blackfriars. Having another flat junction just outside the core, located right next to the flat junction where around half the peak MML Thameslink service crosses to the fast lines, would almost certainly be a constraint too far.



A Thameslink route to Stansted via Kentish Town is a little circuitous but it's not terrible.

This was, of course, planned as the route to Stansted in the 80s. The BR planners decided it was sufficiently terrible not to pursue it.


The biggest issue would look to be platform length.

The biggest issue would be - why?

Specifically, why divert trains that are very busy in the peak away from the MML to serve parts of London that already have a good radial service into London through other routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Obviously, there is limited capacity due to the line being shared with freight. Does anyone know why this service needs to be active throughout the day and cannot be moved to off hours?

There’s only a few “out of hours” each day. Our economy relies on a functioning and efficient logistics system.

It’s a bit like saying ‘what are all these trucks doing on the M25, does anyone know why they cannot be moved to only travel at night?”
 

Basil Jet

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If you connect Wimbledon - Earls Court - Edgware Road - (new tunnel) - Upper Holloway - South Tottenham - (reinstated track) - Tottenham Hale - Broxbourne, it is not far off a straight line.
Interesting idea, but perhaps too far away from the lucrative bits of London travel to be truly useful.
The new tunnel would have platforms at Marylebone/Baker Street, Camden Town/Camden Road, and Kentish Town. This would increase capacity in the West End by giving most journeys between North and West London a shortcut that avoids the West End and Euston St Pancras. At the moment the journey planner sends Edgware - Shepherds Bush via Tottenham Court Road!
 

ijmad

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The Thameslink core is already pretty much at its designed capacity, so what paths would you divert away from Bedford/Luton/St Albans in order to send them via the GOBLIN instead? That route is already quite busy, I'm not sure a considerable reduction in services or 4+ trains per hour would be appreciated.

If anything I think you could make a case for going the opposite direction, running GOBLIN services over the existing freight connection towards West Hampstead Thameslink and then on to connect with the West London Orbital scheme to Cricklewood and Neasden maybe?
 
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Bald Rick

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If anything I think you could make a case for going the opposite direction, running GOBLIN services over the existing freight connection towards West Hampstead Thameslink and then on to connect with the West London Orbital scheme to Cricklewood and Neasden maybe?

No capacity for that. To get on to the (full) MML slows, then across to the (nearly full) MML fasts, and then on to the Hendon lines. Youd need another tunnel from somewhere near Tufnell Park all the way to the Hendon lines north of West Hampstead.
 

etr221

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Previously the GOBLIN line went to Moorgate.
Did it? I thought the trains terminated at St Pancras or Kentish Town.
Pre WW1 what was to become Goblin, then known as the Tottenham and Hampstead (Mid & GE), and Tottenham and Forest Gate (Mid & LTS) Joint lines, was the principle subsurban service of the Midland Railway (i.e. had more trains than the main line), with a majority running over the Met Widened lines to Moorgate; and for a period some turning south at Farringdon onto the LCDR to go through to Victoria (turning west at Loughborough Junction). To what extent they ran to Barking I don't know - a lot didn't go that far, and many went to East Ham, with some through onto the LTS to Southend (until BR days it was used for boat trains to Tilbury). Again, pre WW1, there were GER trains to Gospel Oak, but these would have joined the T&H at S Tottenham (the GE didn't have an interest in the T&FG). But the development of the tramway network, and later the tube, I suspect had a big impact from the Edwardian era, with services diminishing over the years.

Knowing exactly what services were run when requires rather more knowledge than I have!
 

ijmad

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No capacity for that. To get on to the (full) MML slows, then across to the (nearly full) MML fasts, and then on to the Hendon lines. Youd need another tunnel from somewhere near Tufnell Park all the way to the Hendon lines north of West Hampstead.

Yes indeed, I guess it'd definitely would need a dive under or two. Also I wasn't sure there was any capacity on the MML slows, anyway, even if you could get on them without conflicts.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes indeed, I guess it'd definitely would need a dive under or two. Also I wasn't sure there was any capacity on the MML slows, anyway, even if you could get on them without conflicts.

It’s more than a dive under, it could only be a whole new tunnel.
 
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