Go North East

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even the new E400MMCs that Arriva Northumbria have are not brilliant. They're reliable but they're very basic, with low backed seats and nothing else in the way of frills. A far cry from the ideas behind MAX.

It's a weird choice up there at the minute: basic but clean, or comfortable but tatty. And GNE is tatty- when I was last there, even the new buses on the flagship X66 were bashed and battered, with things like broken charger cradles and torn seat covers.

Indeed - I was up in Northumberland just a few weeks ago. Those Arriva 72 plate e400mmcs are remarkably spartan considering their use on the X15/X18 (and also appear on the X14 too) with the longer average passenger journey duration.

Think it's been a while since the X66 was flagship. After all, the 100 used to be flagship Busways route.

 

[Snex]

Even the new E400MMCs that Arriva Northumbria have are not brilliant. They're reliable but they're very basic, with low backed seats and nothing else in the way of frills. A far cry from the ideas behind MAX.

It's a weird choice up there at the minute: basic but clean, or comfortable but tatty. And GNE is tatty- when I was last there, even the new buses on the flagship X66 were bashed and battered, with things like broken charger cradles and torn seat covers.

To be fair, bar the high backed seats, which personally I hate, there's not much difference between them and MAX.

The MAX refurb, imo, was a downgrade anyway as the cream poles and moquette were nicer than the slippery eleather but I respect others will have different opinions on that.

Bringing it back to GoNorthEast, I'm not aware of a bus company which is actively disliked as much as them by the general public as it's just one disaster to another lately with price increases to boot, mainly thanks to the crazy price reductions Gilbert done before he bolted which were never going to be sustainable.

 

[Fox192]

To be fair, bar the high backed seats, which personally I hate, there's not much difference between them and MAX.

The MAX refurb, imo, was a downgrade anyway as the cream poles and moquette were nicer than the slippery eleather but I respect others will have different opinions on that.

Bringing it back to GoNorthEast, I'm not aware of a bus company which is actively disliked as much as them by the general public as it's just one disaster to another lately with price increases to boot, mainly thanks to the crazy price reductions Gilbert done before he bolted which were never going to be sustainable.

I hate arriva seats that most of them still stick with the handle headrests that you have to keep your head up rather than be able to put it back, seems odd fashioned to me too

 

[Tetchytyke]

Think it's been a while since the X66 was flagship. After all, the 100 used to be flagship Busways route.

True enough, it's a far cry from when they had the artics running non-stop every five minutes. But it is still flagship enough to get brand new E200MMCs on it, and despite being brand new the ones I rode were in an appalling state. Clearly that's got quite a bit to do with the lovely citizens of that part of Gateshead, but still.

I'm not aware of a bus company which is actively disliked as much as them by the general public as it's just one disaster to another lately with price increases to boot

It's actually impressive how quickly they've managed to shred their reputation, to be honest. They were always seen as the best of the big three in the north east, and rightly so. Now? The nicest thing anyone can say is that they are no worse than Arriva Teesside.

 

[Steddenm]

One of the X10s was evacuated yesterday by the Washington slip road heading North around 1030 as coolant had leaked on the engine.

Also one of the "Angel" services was also evacuated on the A19 for the same reason

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair, bar the high backed seats, which personally I hate, there's not much difference between them and MAX.

The MAX refurb, imo, was a downgrade anyway as the cream poles and moquette were nicer than the slippery eleather but I respect others will have different opinions on that.

Bringing it back to GoNorthEast, I'm not aware of a bus company which is actively disliked as much as them by the general public as it's just one disaster to another lately with price increases to boot, mainly thanks to the crazy price reductions Gilbert done before he bolted which were never going to be sustainable.

I think you're right on the subjective nature of moquette vs. pleather (plastic leather). I prefer moquette but I didn't mind Max/Sapphire - it's the modern fleet without headrests that I find most annoying. They're specced for urban work where journey durations are shorter but you can easily have a journey of towards an hour on them.

I know @Tetchytyke has a hatred of Nigel Featham. However, I have friends in the bus industry and this was being predicted in the Gilbert era. There was a lot of performative stuff (videos, announcements, brand refreshs etc) that wasn't really managing the business correctly but the enthusiasts loved it. It took a lot of focus from day to day delivery (cos that ain't sexy) and these were conversations I was having in 2019. Covid hit and it really did expose some of the fundamental issues like not investing in fleet and increasingly marginal work. Sadly, one of the consequences was then the decision to close Chester le Street and that has decimated service reliability in that area.

Then you have Nigel Featham managing both GNE and GNW (which was in the throes of Bee Network) and clearly the relationship with the union broke down, so there has to be culpability there. Whether the local senior management has the skill to extricate themselves from this morass is questionable but these issues extend back before them. The profile of the fleet is as bad as I can remember it.

True enough, it's a far cry from when they had the artics running non-stop every five minutes. But it is still flagship enough to get brand new E200MMCs on it, and despite being brand new the ones I rode were in an appalling state. Clearly that's got quite a bit to do with the lovely citizens of that part of Gateshead, but still.

They're six years old and they weren't even new to the route.

 

[Snex]

I think you're right on the subjective nature of moquette vs. pleather (plastic leather). I prefer moquette but I didn't mind Max/Sapphire - it's the modern fleet without headrests that I find most annoying. They're specced for urban work where journey durations are shorter but you can easily have a journey of towards an hour on them.

I know @Tetchytyke has a hatred of Nigel Featham. However, I have friends in the bus industry and this was being predicted in the Gilbert era. There was a lot of performative stuff (videos, announcements, brand refreshs etc) that wasn't really managing the business correctly but the enthusiasts loved it. It took a lot of focus from day to day delivery (cos that ain't sexy) and these were conversations I was having in 2019. Covid hit and it really did expose some of the fundamental issues like not investing in fleet and increasingly marginal work. Sadly, one of the consequences was then the decision to close Chester le Street and that has decimated service reliability in that area.

Then you have Nigel Featham managing both GNE and GNW (which was in the throes of Bee Network) and clearly the relationship with the union broke down, so there has to be culpability there. Whether the local senior management has the skill to extricate themselves from this morass is questionable but these issues extend back before them. The profile of the fleet is as bad as I can remember it.


They're six years old and they weren't even new to the route.

Yeah totally agreed, it was really noticeable aswell being local and not being brainwashed by the branding stuff.

The amount of times which certain routes were getting changed was ridiculous as it's just unusable for anyone wanting the bus if one week it exists, the next it doesn't, then the week after it's back again.

COVID was a complete shambles though, whoever thought getting the jackhammer out and cutting half the network so soon after the pandemic I seriously question what they were doing. If you want people to come back up, packing people in like sardines when people are scared to be 2m from others is lunacy, and that's before the fact the bus they used to get disappeared because it was cut.

That's before going into the price cut idea of having a temporary price slash which then got extended. I'm no expert at business but that's a suicide move if you're not making money as you've got a challenge when you need to put the fares back up as it's just bad PR which ultimately happened.

I know people slag off Feetham but there's a side of me who thinks he's got his hands tied by upper management aswell. You'd need miracles to work with the fleet which is there right now.

 

[NorthOxonian]

It's actually impressive how quickly they've managed to shred their reputation, to be honest. They were always seen as the best of the big three in the north east, and rightly so. Now? The nicest thing anyone can say is that they are no worse than Arriva Teesside.

I travel between South Shields and Sunderland fairly regularly - for end to end journeys, the options are the Go North East 24 (which takes around 35 minutes) or the Stagecoach E routes (typically around 45 minutes). It's quite noticeable that passengers seem to prefer the latter; obviously intermediate destinations are a factor but I definitely see a fair few getting on at one end of the Es and travelling right through. The 24, on the other hand, rarely seems to get many people on it, and seems to be noticeably quieter than pre Covid.

Back then it was numbered 20 and continued through to Durham, but I wouldn't have thought that cutting that extension would significantly impact numbers - rather it seems to be genuine local preference to choose the Stagecoach services. It's only anecdotal but this is one example of a corridor where Go North East are clearly damaged relative to where they were (notably also - they now operate four buses per hour not six, whereas Stagecoach have retained six per hour combined for as long as I can remember).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know @Tetchytyke has a hatred of Nigel Featham.

Hatred is a very strong word, not one I would choose to use.

I do think it is notable how industrial strife seems to follow him around, even going right back to the Warrington Buses days. I can't think of an operator he's been at where there hasn't been a prolonged and bitter industrial dispute under his leadership. The one at Arriva Yorkshire was particularly vitriolic.

But, in fairness, if he's deliberately being hired as a turnaround/cost-cutting merchant then, fairly understandably, he isn't exactly going to be best mates with the unions.

I don't know how much of the strife at GNE was him and how much of it was Ben Maxfield, although it is noteworthy that Maxfield seems to follow him around from operator to operator. But I consider it absolutely staggering that a) serious allegations about the roadworthiness of the fleet were being played out in the local media and b) that the local media clearly had receipts.

On the subject of Arriva Yorkshire, it's interesting how morale, reliability, engineering and presentation all nose-dived even after the strike was supposedly resolved. Again the smell of bad blood lingered at that operator for a long time after the strike; I don't think Arriva's Yorkshire operations have ever truly recovered. It sounds remarkably similar to what is happening at GNE.

They're six years old and they weren't even new to the route.

You're right, they were sold as new buses for the route and I actually thought they were. As it turns out they were new to GNE and then, in a shock move, moved to Manchester for a bit to cover for GNW. The underlying point about presentation still stands though. As does the point that GNW seems to get all the focus and the money and GNE is being left to swing in the breeze.

t's quite noticeable that passengers seem to prefer the latter; obviously intermediate destinations are a factor but I definitely see a fair few getting on at one end of the Es and travelling right through.

The Yutongs will attract people. Especially when the GNE alternative is a clapped-out ten year old Streetlite.

And, in a different way, so will the open-toppers (there's one out today on the E routes).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I do think it is notable how industrial strife seems to follow him around, even going right back to the Warrington Buses days. I can't think of an operator he's been at where there hasn't been a prolonged and bitter industrial dispute under his leadership. The one at Arriva Yorkshire was particularly vitriolic.

But, in fairness, if he's deliberately being hired as a turnaround/cost-cutting merchant then, fairly understandably, he isn't exactly going to be best mates with the unions.

I don't know how much of the strife at GNE was him and how much of it was Ben Maxfield, although it is noteworthy that Maxfield seems to follow him around from operator to operator. But I consider it absolutely staggering that a) serious allegations about the roadworthiness of the fleet were being played out in the local media and b) that the local media clearly had receipts.

On the subject of Arriva Yorkshire, it's interesting how morale, reliability, engineering and presentation all nose-dived even after the strike was supposedly resolved. Again the smell of bad blood lingered at that operator for a long time after the strike; I don't think Arriva's Yorkshire operations have ever truly recovered. It's a striking similarity to GNE.

He may well be that sort of trouble-shooter. I don't know him but that he was at Warrington for quite a few years both before and after the strike. As for Ben Maxfield, he was at Arriva, then left the industry and clearly Featham tapped him up to go to GNE - hardly operator to operator. However, is he experienced enough to manage that business...?

I've been involved in industrial disputes though we never even got to a strike. It is divisive and if it gets to a strike, the bad blood will last.
As for Arriva Yorkshire, the problems with that business are more akin to... everywhere else in Arriva. Lack of investment, management hamstrung by ridiculous financial measures etc.

You're right, they were sold as new buses for the route and I actually thought they were. As it turns out they were new to GNE and then, in a shock move, moved to Manchester for a bit to cover for GNW. The underlying point about presentation still stands though. As does the point that GNW seems to get all the focus and the money and GNE is being left to swing in the breeze.

Shock move... they had to get compliant buses in to cover for a few months until theirs arrived. They were there about 6 months so come on! As for GNW... yeah, they had an urgent requirement with tranche 2 so it got capital spend. In truth, the lack of investment dates back almost ten years.

The Yutongs will attract people. Especially when the GNE alternative is a clapped-out ten year old Streetlite.

The Yutongs are good but its the respective frequencies that are the difference. Should be noted that Stagecoach has retained Shields depot despite it being underutilised whilst Go NE closed their depot a good few years ago and their presence locally never really recovered. That said, the more recent reduction post Covid (vs Stagecoach not doing so) has backfired.

 

[Snex]

The Yutongs are good but its the respective frequencies that are the difference. Should be noted that Stagecoach has retained Shields depot despite it being underutilised whilst Go NE closed their depot a good few years ago and their presence locally never really recovered. That said, the more recent reduction post Covid (vs Stagecoach not doing so) has backfired.

I don't think GoNorthEast cut the frequency of that post COVID did they? Sure it was 4 BPH before it.

Stagecoach cut the E's from 9 BPH to 6 BPH though which is probably the bigger reason why the buses seem full.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think GoNorthEast cut the frequency of that post COVID did they? Sure it was 4 BPH before it.

Stagecoach cut the E's from 9 BPH to 6 BPH though which is probably the bigger reason why the buses seem full.

Sorry - I was referring to @NorthOxonian's comments so sorry if I've misinterpreted what they wrote

 

[NorthOxonian]

Sorry - I was referring to @NorthOxonian's comments so sorry if I've misinterpreted what they wrote

I've possibly made a mistake here - I certainly recall the 20 being every 10 minutes and found an old timetable to that effect, but can't tell exactly when the route was cut back - it seems to be before the split. Either way, given it is the fastest route between the two centres, and there is significant demand between the two, it is surprising just how quiet the route is even at that frequency.

 

[Snex]

I've possibly made a mistake here - I certainly recall the 20 being every 10 minutes and found an old timetable to that effect, but can't tell exactly when the route was cut back - it seems to be before the split. Either way, given it is the fastest route between the two centres, and there is significant demand between the two, it is surprising just how quiet the route is even at that frequency.

Can't remember the date but it was when the X20 came in that it went down in frequency. It then got split when they done the 20/20A changes when the X20 got binned off after COVID which quite recently got restored with the BSIP funds.

Truthfully not surprised there's not too much demand between the two though, can't see much demand heading to South Shields centre from Sunderland as there's nothing there and it's not a place to connect onwards as there's a river in the way. Going the other way most people have a direct service.

I can't remember whether it was 5 BPH pre COVID or 4 BPH. It was definitely every 12 minutes for a bit.

 

[Steddenm]

Can't remember the date but it was when the X20 came in that it went down in frequency. It then got split when they done the 20/20A changes when the X20 got binned off after COVID which quite recently got restored with the BSIP funds.

Truthfully not surprised there's not too much demand between the two though, can't see much demand heading to South Shields centre from Sunderland as there's nothing there and it's not a place to connect onwards as there's a river in the way. Going the other way most people have a direct service.

I can't remember whether it was 5 BPH pre COVID or 4 BPH. It was definitely every 12 minutes for a bit.

The E1, E2 and E6 between Sunderland and South Shields are busy routes and are usually quite busy as they go through Seaburn and Whitburn.

Whenever I've used them they've been busy both ways. Some people use it to connect with the ferry, others the Metro or other local bus services.

There are quite a lot of commuters on the route as well between the two as it is a lot quicker than the Metro.

On the GNE side of things the 27 between South Shields - Tyne Dock - Jarrow - Heworth - Gateshead - Newcastle isn't very busy at the South Shields end until it reaches Chichester and Jarrow.

The Xlines X10 service is always packed solid every time I've used it from Heworth to Stockton or Middlesbrough and has a lot of local journeys on as well from the little towns en route. The outlet shopping park gets a lot of passengers.

The other GNE services I use, the 50 between South Shields and Durham is also quite a popular route and although it takes a while, it is quite a nice journey between Nissan and Concord and again after Washington Galleries. Recently though it has sometimes been replaced with either a single decker or one of the Little Pinks tiny buses.

I can't comment on many other or the routes as I don't use them very often.

I have used Arriva's 777 between Morpeth and Kingston Park a few times and thats been very lightly loaded (and usually departs Morpeth late) and Stagecoach's Newcastle-Carlisle is always busy.

 

[jkkne]

Interesting weekend at GNE. It’s fleet of Angel branded Streetdecks (which regularly fail to even make it beyond Gateshead on their usual route) have been sent to Silverstone for British GP shuttle work

As a result of the reduction in available vehicles, some internal temporary moves leave GNEs flagship 21 route to be operated by yet more London cast offs but more interestingly the Volvo B9s from its other flagship route, the cobalt and coast 309, temporarily moved to Riverside

Which in turn is seeing Percy main depot forced to put 3 open top deckers into normal service…mercifully the weather played ball for now

One assumes the 21 was prioritised not only for cost but because it receives BSIP funding…whilst its usual stock goes on private hire. Priorities and all that…

 

[northern506]

Interesting weekend at GNE. It’s fleet of Angel branded Streetdecks (which regularly fail to even make it beyond Gateshead on their usual route) have been sent to Silverstone for British GP shuttle work

As a result of the reduction in available vehicles, some internal temporary moves leave GNEs flagship 21 route to be operated by yet more London cast offs but more interestingly the Volvo B9s from its other flagship route, the cobalt and coast 309, temporarily moved to Riverside

Which in turn is seeing Percy main depot forced to put 3 open top deckers into normal service…mercifully the weather played ball for now

One assumes the 21 was prioritised not only for cost but because it receives BSIP funding…whilst its usual stock goes on private hire. Priorities and all that…

Not a great move if they are already struggling with reliability.

Have any journeys been cancelled as a result of this?

 

[Andyh82]

This is all a good example of how the bus enthusiast scene has changed in recent years

At one time it would have been, ‘let’s get our cameras out to photo Percy Main buses in Durham’, or ‘let’s go for a ride on an older vehicle that is only usually found on schools’.

Now it’s, let’s just use it to have a rant and slate a bus company

Happens everywhere, where the only way to gain traction, is to have negative discourse

 

[jkkne]

This is all a good example of how the bus enthusiast scene has changed in recent years

At one time it would have been, ‘let’s get our cameras out to photo Percy Main buses in Durham’, or ‘let’s go for a ride on an older vehicle that is only usually found on schools’.

Now it’s, let’s just use it to have a rant and slate a bus company

Happens everywhere, where the only way to gain traction, is to have negative discourse

I'm not an enthusiast, I'm an irritated customer.

It's raining today, yet Go North East have 3 open top buses out in public service on routes because they've sent some buses 250 miles away on a private hire.
The same buses they barely had in service due to engineering issues and parts shortages, their own MD said they needed to treat them more kindly and apologised, all doesn't add up to send them down to Silverstone does it?
They're a privat company, heavily propped up by taxpayers and quite frankly its taking the mick

 

[Snex]

This is all a good example of how the bus enthusiast scene has changed in recent years

At one time it would have been, ‘let’s get our cameras out to photo Percy Main buses in Durham’, or ‘let’s go for a ride on an older vehicle that is only usually found on schools’.

Now it’s, let’s just use it to have a rant and slate a bus company

Happens everywhere, where the only way to gain traction, is to have negative discourse

Isn't it a good thing that people are now more critical of things rather than just happy clapping everything and attacking anyone who dares says one criticism of 'their' bus company? GoNorthEast, in particular, used to be really bad for it aswell.