Go jenson!!!

[Royston Vasey]

It's not possible to space the cars out by time when restarting from a Safety car, Bernt Maylander's job is to keep the field slow and in a bunch while the marshalls work to clear the track.

That's not how aggregate timing used to work. If the race was red flagged they took the time difference on the last completed lap, let's say car B trails car A by 5 seconds. They would restart, usually under the safety car, and then in that portion of the race, car B would have to beat car A by over 5 seconds to achieve the aggregate victory. It wasn't done by trying to manufacture a physical gap on the restart.

IIRC the last time this happened was Hill v Schumacher in Japan 1994.

 

[j0hn0]

It was merely a racing accident, neither driver was at fault, and hardly called for the anti-Hamilton brigade to come out in force, especially from the likes of Nikki Lauda on the BBC.

I don't think it was just a "racing incident", Hamilton knows the racing line, therefore, why didn't he stay on the right hand side of the track in order to overtake?

Jenson followed the racing line, therefore that makes it CLEARLY Hamiltons fault, regardless of the witch hunt. If you want to overtake someone, you go OFF the racing line until you are level with them, you don't expect them to move over and this is why it is Hamiltons fault, an amateurs mistake really and one made by a guy whose head is clearly not nailed on correctly at this moment in time.

You always take a risk with overtaking, you just have to know that when braking/acceleration is complete, you are level. That's the judgement you take, you get it wrong, you face the consequences.

The thing is that I've seen lewis do this so many times in his career, hoon up the inside thinking he can make them yield, when in fact he ends up out braking himself and causing an accident.

I am all for great drivers, but Hamilton is being reckless, anyone can see that

 

[passmore]

I don't think it was just a "racing incident", Hamilton knows the racing line, therefore, why didn't he stay on the right hand side of the track in order to overtake?

Jenson followed the racing line, therefore that makes it CLEARLY Hamiltons fault, regardless of the witch hunt. If you want to overtake someone, you go OFF the racing line until you are level with them, you don't expect them to move over and this is why it is Hamiltons fault, an amateurs mistake really and one made by a guy whose head is clearly not nailed on correctly at this moment in time.

You always take a risk with overtaking, you just have to know that when braking/acceleration is complete, you are level. That's the judgement you take, you get it wrong, you face the consequences.

The thing is that I've seen lewis do this so many times in his career, hoon up the inside thinking he can make them yield, when in fact he ends up out braking himself and causing an accident.

I am all for great drivers, but Hamilton is being reckless, anyone can see that

It wasn't Hamilton's fault anymore than it was Button's. As Martin Brundle points out in his blog, Button clearly knew Hamilton was there after exiting the final chicane. He was clearly looking for Hamilton in his mirrors as Hamilton was about to pass but, alas, couldn't see him and he went into the wall. Button might've followed the racing line but he clearly didn't move over when he knew Hamilton was there. Hamilton's recklessness and Button's misjudgement led to an incident of which no one driver is more blameworthy than the other.

I'm not defending any one driver here. How can you when this incident is one in which you can apportion equal amounts of blame to either driver?

 

[j0hn0]

It wasn't Hamilton's fault anymore than it was Button's. As Martin Brundle points out in his blog, Button clearly knew Hamilton was there after exiting the final chicane. He was clearly looking for Hamilton in his mirrors as Hamilton was about to pass but, alas, couldn't see him and he went into the wall. Button might've followed the racing line but he clearly didn't move over when he knew Hamilton was there. Hamilton's recklessness and Button's misjudgement led to an incident of which no one driver is more blameworthy than the other.

I'm not defending any one driver here. How can you when this incident is one in which you can apportion equal amounts of blame to either driver?

but watching the replay, hamilton only had his nose level with Jensens back wheel, to me that is NOT enough to force someone out of the way.

if lewis thought he could force him out of the racing line by only having a tiny part of his car level with the rear of Jensons, then he is an idiot. If lewis had any brain he would've known that jenson will follow the racing line, therefore he had to make a different call and go on the inside, but he didn't so he crashed into Jenson.

Jenson was the guy in front, Lewis caused the crash, and if you knew F1, what they say to cameras isn't necessarily what they mean. If Jenson hadn't apologised, it would've been mutiny within the mclaren camp. Jenson is clever enough to nip that in the bud before anything gets out of hand. He is just pandering to Lewis's ego, something which Alonso clearly wouldn't do an left the team.

Lewis is one of the best drivers in the world, no doubt, but he is in danger of self destructing. You can't apologise for this kind of behaviour and in my eyes, he needs some serious coaching. Just because he loves Senna, doesn't mean he has to act in the same childish way. I thought Senna was a great driver, but again a petulant child, something which Lewis seems to think he has a right to be like.

Hence more penalties from the stewards, but hey they're picking on him coz he's black innit?!

 

[passmore]

I think that post sums up why we're going to continue to agree to disagree.

Obviously you feel the incident is entirely Hamilton's fault, and obviously you feel that because I 'don't know F1', I shouldn't be debating with you, despite me quoting Martin Brundle, a guy who always says what he means.

Back to knitting complex algorithms then...

 

[j0hn0]

I think that post sums up why we're going to continue to agree to disagree.

Obviously you feel the incident is entirely Hamilton's fault, and obviously you feel that because I 'don't know F1', I shouldn't be debating with you, despite me quoting Martin Brundle, a guy who always says what he means.

Back to knitting complex algorithms then...

Well it depends who you want to listen to

a) Martin Brundle - the guy never won sh!7

or

b) Stirling Moss / Nigel Mansell and all the others who have come out to condemn him

????

I stand by what I said as you have just proved your piousness as a precious little code monkey :-P

 

[passmore]

Well it depends who you want to listen to

a) Martin Brundle - the guy never won sh!7

or

b) Stirling Moss / Nigel Mansell and all the others who have come out to condemn him

????

I stand by what I said as you have just proved your piousness as a precious little code monkey :-P

Like I said, you obviously feel Stirling Moss/Nigel Mansell' opinion of Hamilton is in line with yours.

As long as that goes on, we're never to agree.

And lay off the personal insults. Can't you accept that some people aren't of the same opinion as you of Hamilton?

 

[DarloRich]

it was a crash - who cares who caused it. It is exactly what lots of people watch F1 for. They were trying to overtake, Hamilton tried to sell Button a dummy then go up the inside, Button held his line and they touched. Sh*t happens!

I thought the race was good and this added to it.

 

[Zoe]

It is always a risk when you allow team mates to race each other. If this had been Ferrari a few years ago then there would have been little doubt over who would have to move over.

 

[NSE]

The way I see it is that Lewis used to be a good racer, but has become more dangerous, which is a shame as his racing used to be daring and good. In Canada with Button I think Lewis should take most of the blame.

In this instance, Lewis was quicker than Jenson generally as the race started and Lewis has often been behind Jenson while being quicker. Button has never made it difficult for Lewis when he knows he is quicker. But this time I think Lewis was silly, in the rain he knows visability is poor and he was gonna quickly overtake Button anyway, so I don't know why he risked it. He was only a nose up alongside his rear wheel so in the weather conditions I don't think it was worth it.
Judging by the pace Button had at the end, I reckon they could have had a one-two.

Recently Lewis has become more reckless, I don't know why. It's a shame, before he was sensibly risky when driving and was a pleasure to watch, but I'm now much more a Jenson fan.

 

[TGV]

a) Martin Brundle - the guy never won sh!7

1990 Le Mans 24h race... I think you'll find Martin won that in a TWR Jag.

And the 1988 sportscar world championship. He won that too with Eddie Cheever and drove some fantastic races that year.

Or are you an F1 fanboy that thinks if it's not F1, it's not worth it?

 

[Zoe]

Recently Lewis has become more reckless, I don't know why. It's a shame, before he was sensibly risky when driving and was a pleasure to watch, but I'm now much more a Jenson fan.

With Schumacher the other drivers knew to get out of the way or get pushed off the track, Hamilton doesn't seem to command the same authority.

 

[Donny Dave]

The way I see it is that Lewis used to be a good racer, but has become more dangerous, which is a shame as his racing used to be daring and good.

<snip>

Recently Lewis has become more reckless, I don't know why. It's a shame, before he was sensibly risky when driving and was a pleasure to watch, but I'm now much more a Jenson fan.

He still is! During the stoppage in Canada, Martin Brundle came out with a fact about Lewis. Excluding the 1st lap jostling for position, there has been 283 passes this season (prior to Montreal). A certain L Hamilton has made 10% of those passes.

 

[GearJammer]

1990 Le Mans 24h race... I think you'll find Martin won that in a TWR Jag.

And the 1988 sportscar world championship. He won that too with Eddie Cheever and drove some fantastic races that year.

Or are you an F1 fanboy that thinks if it's not F1, it's not worth it?

Also in defence of Brundle.... who says you have to actually WIN a grand prix to know what your talking about? He spent enough time in F1 cars so i value what he says as much as any F1 world champion, D.C never won a world championship in F1, that does'nt mean im gonna discredit anything he says.

It was an accident simple as, fair play to them both, Jenson for sticking to his line and Lewis for trying to make a move, with the extra speed he came out of that corner i'd have branded him silly for NOT trying to overtake.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe Martin Brundle said of Senna, that he put his car in a position that the other driver had the choice of a crash or letting him past, Hamilton seems to follow the same way of driving, but the rules these days are weighted in favour of those in front. He is a very good racer, very aggressive, but that's not always a good thing.

Looking at the incidents in Monaco, I don't believe Hamilton deserved the penalties he got. Massa turned in early and even touched Webber's car (something Di Resta got penalised for in Canada) and his pass onn Maldonado was a crbon copy of the one he pulled on Schumacher at the start of the race, except that Maldonado turned in.

In Canada, I think hamilton's move on Webber wasn't the greatest decision he has made, but he thought he had the space to do it. If you look closely at the footage of Hamilton trying to take button, you will notice that both drivers head for the left of the track at the same time. Hamilton decides Button will give him room, Button doesn't see him make the move (even if he knew Hamilton was right behind him).

Button had a great race though, even Webber acknowledged he was "on another planet" with his pace.

 

[NSE]

I see you what you mean about Lewis, and I agree. I think that he shouldn't be penalised as much as he does, many of his moves are simply racing incidents, but the FIA don't see it that way. I just think Lewis needs to look at the rules and realise he is being penalised time and time again for the same things, and this isn't going to change. It is a shame, I just think that in Canada, especially in the weather, that attempt was too reckless.

Also the more he keeps hitting other people (Massa only hit Webber in Monaco as Lewis hit him) the more its not going to help him.

 

[Zoe]

I see you what you mean about Lewis, and I agree. I think that he shouldn't be penalised as much as he does, many of his moves are simply racing incidents, but the FIA don't see it that way.

Why do the FIA see it that way though when most of the time the Schumacher incidents were racing incidents?

 

[NSE]

Why do the FIA see it that way though when most of the time the Schumacher incidents were racing incidents?

Times change. If Schumacher did any of that today he'd get the same punishment as Lewis.

 

[passmore]

actually yes, I was responding to the fact that YOU validated your opinion by saying that it was the same as Brundles. I countered by saying that actual winners have a different opinion, but that's because you appeared to have taken your opinion from Brundles mouth.

In terms of insults, it was the way you attempted to discredit my opinion as stupid as you were returning to "knitting complex algorithms"

When you try and and be clever, don't get all haughty when people react to sanctimonious comments like that, I work with people like you all day, you're not clever, or special. Now go back and get mummy to cook your dinner

I accept the bit about Brundle/Mansell etc, but it's clearly your fault for not taking a joke with regards to 'knitting complex algorithms' and it had nothing to do with the credibility of your opinion.

I'm not sure about that last paragraph either. I haven't been a kid for nearly 57 years now mate and my mum died when I was very young so I'll ask you again to kindly desist with the personal insults.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see you what you mean about Lewis, and I agree.

Also the more he keeps hitting other people (Massa only hit Webber in Monaco as Lewis hit him) the more its not going to help him.

It is not as if he is a novice any more. He is now an experianced Formula 1 driver and his team have also much to answer for.

 

[TGV]

What do McLaren have to answer for now?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What do McLaren have to answer for now?

Letting Hamilton try to overtake I think

It is not as if he is a novice any more. He is now an experianced Formula 1 driver and his team have also much to answer for.

Was Vettel a novice last season when he took out his team mate in Turkey and Jenson Button at Spa?

If Massa (having been in more races than Hamilton) hadn't turned in on Hamilton in Monaco (like Hamilton didn't on lap 1 when Schumacher passed him) would there have been a collision? Would Massa have finished the race (or atleast gone further in it)?

There are Hamilton fans that build him up to more than he is with little reason for it, but those who hate him, imo, have little reason for it also (unless you're a more experienced Spanish driver with dillusions of greatness driving the same car)

 

[passmore]

Exactly hairyhandedfool, you either like or you hate Hamilton.

That's no reason for one member in this discussion at least turning this debate about Hamilton on its head into a volley of personal attacks, all of which duly ignored but nevertheless...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, we can all deflate the euphoria now.

The European Grand Prix is over....normal service has been resumed. Vettel again the winner.

 

[strange6]

F1 is getting very boring again and it's all down to one man: Adrian Newey. The man is a genius.

 

[LE Greys]

F1 is getting very boring again and it's all down to one man: Adrian Newey. The man is a genius.

Just hope that Northants are playing at home in two weeks' time. The inevitable weather should make Grand Prix racing interesting again. Of course, it doesn't help that Valencia is a dull street circuit where overtaking is tricky. Having said that, we did get one or two, and Alonso gave the Red Bulls a run for theirs money. No chance of actually beating Vettel, but he got Webber well enough.

We'll also have to see what happens when the exhaust systems get simplified.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To use the thread title after today's result.

Go Jenson!...but where did he go to today?

 

[strange6]

Just hope that Northants are playing at home in two weeks' time. The inevitable weather should make Grand Prix racing interesting again. Of course, it doesn't help that Valencia is a dull street circuit where overtaking is tricky. Having said that, we did get one or two, and Alonso gave the Red Bulls a run for theirs money. No chance of actually beating Vettel, but he got Webber well enough.

We'll also have to see what happens when the exhaust systems get simplified.

They need it. Some of them are providing too much downforce.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What do McLaren have to answer for now?

Poor race tactics....cars not good enough...etc etc

 

[strange6]

There are rumours the BBC are going to dump F1 at the end of 2012 so that they can keep BBC 3 open with the money saved. If it's anything like this season, I wouldn't miss it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Poor race tactics....cars not good enough...etc etc

Poor old Martin Whitmarsh is having a bad time of it. I'm seeing Ron Dennis more and more yet again! Coincidence maybe????