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Go Cornwall Bus

embers25

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Anyone know what buses are headed to Dartline for their new work? Or just using their existing fleet?
I assume the solos from the Exeter PR3. Interestingly, as the buses changed, so have the drivers and they are training others. Are the existing PR3 solo drivers moving to the new routes?
 
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co-tr-paul

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Having seen some media reports of the 50 new electric Wright Deckers in the news and some posts on Tiktok about them not being used in Cornwall because we just get the rubbish .....
Question 1 , not fussed about power but more importantly, will the seats used on Cornish routes be more suitable for longer journeys ? First are so basic and hard apart from the " new " 400 MMCs and have not had a decent, comfortable ride since the Akexander coach bodied Volvos of years back ! Try sitting on a U4 for 1 1/2 hours !
Question 2 , Bustimes has split the Plymouth Citybus fleet into 2 with Go Cornwall being separate. Is this yhe case ? Is the fleet allocation cycled through Plymouth or will Cornwall get its own fleet from February ?
Thanks in advance !
 

Andyh82

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BusTimes has always split the fleet between Plymouth Citybus and Go Cornwall and there are some enthusiasts who seem to spend every day moving buses back and forth between the two
 

Goldfish62

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Having seen some media reports of the 50 new electric Wright Deckers in the news and some posts on Tiktok about them not being used in Cornwall because we just get the rubbish .....
Question 1 , not fussed about power but more importantly, will the seats used on Cornish routes be more suitable for longer journeys ? First are so basic and hard apart from the " new " 400 MMCs and have not had a decent, comfortable ride since the Akexander coach bodied Volvos of years back ! Try sitting on a U4 for 1 1/2 hours !
Question 2 , Bustimes has split the Plymouth Citybus fleet into 2 with Go Cornwall being separate. Is this yhe case ? Is the fleet allocation cycled through Plymouth or will Cornwall get its own fleet from February ?
Thanks in advance !
In response to Tiktok some of the EVs are used in Cornwall, the clue being their Transport for Cornwall fleetnames.

There's basically a Cornwall fleet, but it needs to be cycled through Milehouse for maintainance, plus inevitably ad hoc short notice requirements mean that Plymouth buses end up being used in Cornwall and vice versa.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Having seen some media reports of the 50 new electric Wright Deckers in the news and some posts on Tiktok about them not being used in Cornwall because we just get the rubbish .....
Question 1 , not fussed about power but more importantly, will the seats used on Cornish routes be more suitable for longer journeys ? First are so basic and hard apart from the " new " 400 MMCs and have not had a decent, comfortable ride since the Akexander coach bodied Volvos of years back ! Try sitting on a U4 for 1 1/2 hours !
Question 2 , Bustimes has split the Plymouth Citybus fleet into 2 with Go Cornwall being separate. Is this yhe case ? Is the fleet allocation cycled through Plymouth or will Cornwall get its own fleet from February ?
Thanks in advance !
Those posts on TikTok must’ve missed the massive slew of new buses in 2020/1?

As for the EVs, some are allocated to the Rame routes though they had a few weeks in the summer where they were moved off to resolve grounding issues
 

DaveHarries

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Having seen some media reports of the 50 new electric Wright Deckers in the news and some posts on Tiktok about them not being used in Cornwall because we just get the rubbish .....
Question 1 , not fussed about power but more importantly, will the seats used on Cornish routes be more suitable for longer journeys ? First are so basic and hard apart from the " new " 400 MMCs and have not had a decent, comfortable ride since the Alexander coach bodied Volvos of years back ! Try sitting on a U4 for 1 1/2 hours !
I did the U4 end-to-end once while on a trip for my employer (vehicle delivery to Falmouth, then collect one in Penzance) and quite enjoyed the trip.

I think the 17-plate E400s from the 21/21A in Plymouth could head to Cornwall now that they have been made redundant by the Wright Electrics, one of which I rode once from Stonehouse to Plymouth City Centre: first time of being on a Wright Electric and I found the journey very good.

Dave
 

markymark2000

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BusTimes has always split the fleet between Plymouth Citybus and Go Cornwall and there are some enthusiasts who seem to spend every day moving buses back and forth between the two
It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. Though it it interesting to see how little the Go South West group actually care about having the right buses in the right areas (Given the buses are all branded for either Cornwall or Plymouth work). Even Oxford Bus Group, where buses for Thames Travel and Oxford Bus can share the same depot, they tend to have buses going out on the right routes. The way GSW buses move between Plymouth and Cornwall work is as if the allocators just say 'take what you want and we will sort it out later'.
And either outstations are ran on a shoestring with no spare, or the whole thing is just wildly inefficient with at somewhere in the region of 5 buses per day doing not in service transfers between depots/outstations, in addition to a number of buses which move about when they get to a terminus. I'd like to hope that with the expansion of the commercial network in Cornwall, they will upgrade an existing depot or something so then vehicles can be more maintained in Cornwall and save the silly amount of transfers.

-----

On the topic of the new commercial network, the traffic commissioners registration dataset has been updated and now provides details on a few more changes in February in relation to the take over of First services. Details can also be found in a more user friendly way on Bustimes).
Current route 5/5A is being renumbered to 1/1A and extended to Lands End and Sunday service added
Current route 27E is being renumbered to 27 and weekday daytime journeys added
Current route 29E is being renumbered to 29 and weekday daytime journeys added and Sundays extended to the Eden Project.
Current route 41 is being withdrawn and replaced by a 14 & 18. Based on the basic route descriptions provides, the 14 looks to be the T2 replacement, and 18 the T1 replacement.

No timetables are out nor specific details but at least it gives people some more information on the replacement services.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Though it it interesting to see how little the Go South West group actually care about having the right buses in the right areas (Given the buses are all branded for either Cornwall or Plymouth work). Even Oxford Bus Group, where buses for Thames Travel and Oxford Bus can share the same depot, they tend to have buses going out on the right routes. The way GSW buses move between Plymouth and Cornwall work is as if the allocators just say 'take what you want and we will sort it out later'.
It’s hardly the same thing. The majority of the time, it is a TfC bus on a TfC working but if it isn’t, it’s still a red bus in broadly the same livery. I’m fairly sure that they are more organised than you make out, I.e. not sending vehicles that they will need back a few days later for inspection.

To my mind, it’s the wider presentation of the fleet (missing vinyls, scuffs and gaffer tape, legacy liveries) that is more noticeable than the worry a Plymouth fleetname is seen in St Columb Minor. That said, I’ve generally had a decent experience with GSW - service reliability has been good, driving standards good, and the internal presentation reasonable.
And either outstations are ran on a shoestring with no spare, or the whole thing is just wildly inefficient with at somewhere in the region of 5 buses per day doing not in service transfers between depots/outstations, in addition to a number of buses which move about when they get to a terminus. I'd like to hope that with the expansion of the commercial network in Cornwall, they will upgrade an existing depot or something so then vehicles can be more maintained in Cornwall and save the silly amount of transfers.
Wildly inefficient and yet, they’ve managed to put the established operator to the sword by winning the tenders, then the Truro college work, before killing them. Perhaps they’re a bit cleverer than you might think?
 

markymark2000

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I’m fairly sure that they are more organised than you make out
What part of 'organised' has so many buses moving about on a regular basis? Especially the random NIS runs from Plymouth across Cornwall. Organised would be making it work out on the duty boards, or having maintenance done in Cornwall as well as Plymouth.

they’ve managed to put the established operator to the sword by winning the tenders, then the Truro college work, before killing them. Perhaps they’re a bit cleverer than you might think?
I see the situation in a very different way to yourself. I look at it from a perspective of an operator who had no depots in the area, won a very large contract (which in my opinion was far too big of an award), and the council has provided significant support to GoAhead by turning a blind eye to issues, and even letting GoAhead use council depots to base buses. GoAhead has then used this contract and council depots as a basis, to enable them to needlessly compete with the incumbent. This has led to the incumbent giving up. They weren't exactly fighting on an even playing field.

First are no angels and there's no disputing that they have been struggling for a while, but they didn't deserve to go in this way. GoAhead should NEVER have been given such a helping hand by Cornwall council. and had they not been given so much support by Cornwall council, they would never have been in a position to compete! I believe it looks rather calculated between Cornwall council and GoAhead...... But anyway. That's my personal views, not professional.
 

MaidaVale

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Question 1 , not fussed about power but more importantly, will the seats used on Cornish routes be more suitable for longer journeys ? First are so basic and hard apart from the " new " 400 MMCs and have not had a decent, comfortable ride since the Akexander coach bodied Volvos of years back ! Try sitting on a U4 for 1 1/2 hours !

Probably not, no.

Most of GCBs new vehicles have dealer spec "ADL Smartseats" on the 200MMCs and 400MMCs which tend to be relatively basic and hard, and I wouldn't describe them as being at all more comfortable than either the high or low back Civics found on most non-MMC First vehicles. Most other second-hand GCB buses have the same mix of high and low back civics as most second-hand First buses. The new electroliners at Plymouth also have the same high-back civics as a lot of First's older Geminis. I don't expect this to change on any other new similar buses that might come to Cornwall.
 

FirstKernow

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What part of 'organised' has so many buses moving about on a regular basis? Especially the random NIS runs from Plymouth across Cornwall. Organised would be making it work out on the duty boards, or having maintenance done in Cornwall as well as Plymouth.


I see the situation in a very different way to yourself. I look at it from a perspective of an operator who had no depots in the area, won a very large contract (which in my opinion was far too big of an award), and the council has provided significant support to GoAhead by turning a blind eye to issues, and even letting GoAhead use council depots to base buses. GoAhead has then used this contract and council depots as a basis, to enable them to needlessly compete with the incumbent. This has led to the incumbent giving up. They weren't exactly fighting on an even playing field.

First are no angels and there's no disputing that they have been struggling for a while, but they didn't deserve to go in this way. GoAhead should NEVER have been given such a helping hand by Cornwall council. and had they not been given so much support by Cornwall council, they would never have been in a position to compete! I believe it looks rather calculated between Cornwall council and GoAhead...... But anyway. That's my personal views, not professional.
Go Ahead have a site in Cornwall for maintenance at Newquay Airport ,which is also a depot supplied again though Cornwall council i think its though Corserv which do the cleaning to , plus they took over the old Summercort Travel work when they went under and still use the small workshop there also , its very sad to see First leave & Go Ahead have a almost total monopoly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It’s hardly the same thing. The majority of the time, it is a TfC bus on a TfC working but if it isn’t, it’s still a red bus in broadly the same livery. I’m fairly sure that they are more organised than you make out, I.e. not sending vehicles that they will need back a few days later for inspection.

To my mind, it’s the wider presentation of the fleet (missing vinyls, scuffs and gaffer tape, legacy liveries) that is more noticeable than the worry a Plymouth fleetname is seen in St Columb Minor. That said, I’ve generally had a decent experience with GSW - service reliability has been good, driving standards good, and the internal presentation reasonable.

Wildly inefficient and yet, they’ve managed to put the established operator to the sword by winning the tenders, then the Truro college work, before killing them. Perhaps they’re a bit cleverer than you might think?
There do seem to be a lot of buses in Cornwall with Plymouth CityBus on them which isn't great when its meant to be "Transport for Cornwall" even some of the spark E400citys still have route branding for Plymouth area work it don't take that long to remove surely ? , to be fair the Councill do seem relaxed about it, but then that said First is no better with branded buses but some might say least there Cornish brands apart from the B9's that might have Norwich still visible o_O:D
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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What part of 'organised' has so many buses moving about on a regular basis? Especially the random NIS runs from Plymouth across Cornwall. Organised would be making it work out on the duty boards, or having maintenance done in Cornwall as well as Plymouth.
Organised in that they clearly aren’t doing it randomly as you suggested.

Also, they clearly worked out the cost of an additional full depot in Cornwall was more than recycling through Milehouse.

Things are often less random than people think.
I see the situation in a very different way to yourself. I look at it from a perspective of an operator who had no depots in the area, won a very large contract (which in my opinion was far too big of an award), and the council has provided significant support to GoAhead by turning a blind eye to issues, and even letting GoAhead use council depots to base buses. GoAhead has then used this contract and council depots as a basis, to enable them to needlessly compete with the incumbent. This has led to the incumbent giving up. They weren't exactly fighting on an even playing field
How do you know that the council turned a blind eye to issues? Evidence please!

Also, you do realise that Go Ahead don’t get use of Cormac premises at a below market rate? It’s the full market rate so any firm doesn’t get an unfair advantage. Also, those facilities were available to ALL tenderers. Even First though they had the inbuilt advantage of incumbency and existing resources.

The fact is that they weren’t as cheap as First but won the work on the quality criteria of the submission (and quality doesn’t mean what people think it does in public procurement). First never realigned their cost base and were comprehensively outmanoeuvred by a competent (but not stellar) operator.

Those are the facts.
 

markymark2000

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Organised in that they clearly aren’t doing it randomly as you suggested.
We will have to disagree (as we do with most things). Almost everyone else can see the disorganised mess of Go South West from miles off. I've experienced far too much in the industry to see certain management and operators for what they really are. Rose tinted glassed aren't good for anyone.

How do you know that the council turned a blind eye to issues? Evidence please!
I've seen the emails. I didn't think to start taking photos of them at the time but perhaps I should have. Largely related to GSWs shoddy attempts at publishing bus open data with more holes in it than a sieve. If they were being held accountable, they would have got them fixed quickly not taken many months to fix issues. Then again, perhaps I should give them some leeway as their staff were probably inundated with running silly numbers of empty buses up, down and across Cornwall each day to rebalance fleets.

First never realigned their cost base and were comprehensively outmanoeuvred by a competent (but not stellar) operator.
Agree First has it's own issues, and by no means are they great. They didn't deserve to go though as a result of GoAhead storming in with size 12s with the backup of their chums at the council. If the council is offering out it's depots to get more bids for the contract, the depots should have been used for the contract work only and nothing else. And when it became apparent that GoAhead was using these council depots to push out the incumbent to get a monopoly, the council should have put a stop to that practise. Goahead shouldn't have done it, and the council shouldn't have let them! It doesn't matter which council or operators names you put into this situation, it's unacceptable and clearly shouldn't have happened.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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We will have to disagree (as we do with most things). Almost everyone else can see the disorganised mess of Go South West from miles off. I've experienced far too much in the industry to see certain management and operators for what they really are. Rose tinted glassed aren't good for anyone.
Well I’ve actually experienced the operation and on every occasion, they have not let me down. Not claiming they are a stellar operation (and I’ve already highlighted some shortcomings) but they provide a decent service.
I've seen the emails. I didn't think to start taking photos of them at the time but perhaps I should have. Largely related to GSWs shoddy attempts at publishing bus open data with more holes in it than a sieve. If they were being held accountable, they would have got them fixed quickly not taken many months to fix issues. Then again, perhaps I should give them some leeway as their staff were probably inundated with running silly numbers of empty buses up, down and across Cornwall each day to rebalance fleets.
What emails? Your own personal ones about open data?

I thought you might be talking about service delivery and imposing penalties, or issues on service compliance. I struggle to think of any LAs with the depth of resource to worry about open data issues and pursue with ANY operator. Frankly, they are barely able to cope with their statutory responsibilities (as loads of gung ho Reform councillors are now discovering) in terms of social care and education to worry about open data accuracy.

GSW run vehicles across from Plymouth not on a whim but because the original tender package wouldn’t sustain a full depot. Hence they have a series of outstations where they operate and then cycle the vehicles through Milehouse as required NOT via some random number generator. I fully anticipate that now they have this much expanded operation, the sums will add up unlike in the past and that a fully equipped Cornwall depot will then tackle MOTs, full dock inspections and heavy maintenance, though with Milehouse still doing specialist work as required.
Agree First has it's own issues, and by no means are they great. They didn't deserve to go though as a result of GoAhead storming in with size 12s with the backup of their chums at the council. If the council is offering out its depots to get more bids for the contract, the depots should have been used for the contract work only and nothing else. And when it became apparent that GoAhead was using these council depots to push out the incumbent to get a monopoly, the council should have put a stop to that practise. Goahead shouldn't have done it, and the council shouldn't have let them! It doesn't matter which council or operators names you put into this situation, it's unacceptable and clearly shouldn't have happened
You just don’t get it. GSW don’t have chums in the council and part of CC are probably annoyed at them having a virtual monopoly. There is the law of unintended consequences in procurement and it happens in private procurement too.

However, the Cormac depots were provided AT MARKET RATE so even if they wanted to ban them, GSW would’ve been able to go round the corner and find a yard and it would’ve been the same result.

Of course, they could have said that only tendered operations could be performed from those sites… but that would preclude any future service development from any operator. How you structure a tenancy agreement to discriminate against good or bad development is also pretty difficult to navigate. It’s a commercial agreement so it’s tricky to place restrictions based on limiting a firms ability to operate.
 

embers25

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I have to correct one thing. GSW have improved significantly, but you must be the only person theyve never let down.

Bus presentation is better now, but that follows several years of almost every bus being gaffer taped. I've had numerous occasions where I've had to direct the driver, buses getting lost, very late running without traffic issues, buses sitting ages in Liskeard waiting for drivers that never come, last minute cancellations on irregular services. I could go on.

I agree things have improved and that first definitely have their issues but GSW are not exactly great.

As for the council, I thiink many feel its been a stitch up that is now majorly backfiring and the council have a lot to answer for. It has been a shining example of how to waste public funds to deliver no real improvement, except ticket acceptance available across all operators...albeit there will soon mostly be only one operator anyway.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I have to correct one thing. GSW have improved significantly, but you must be the only person theyve never let down.

I agree things have improved and that first definitely have their issues but GSW are not exactly great.
I can only go on my experience. I’ve not had an issue with them but I’ve consistently said that they’re not a patch on someone like GSC.

Competent but not brilliant has been my experience.
As for the council, I thiink many feel its been a stitch up that is now majorly backfiring and the council have a lot to answer for. It has been a shining example of how to waste public funds to deliver no real improvement, except ticket acceptance available across all operators...albeit there will soon mostly be only one operator anyway
Not a stitch up but the pitfalls of a process where they tried to avoid a monopolistic position but have ended up that way and in a worse position.

As for CC squandering funds, well that is something I’ve cited before. The Bodmin Moor wanderer being the most obvious example but there’s so many more!!
 

Goldfish62

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As for the council, I thiink many feel its been a stitch up that is now majorly backfiring and the council have a lot to answer for.
Yes, it's obvious six years down the line that plenty of people still have no idea about the tendering process and how GCB managed to submit the Most Economically Advantageous Tender for all routes. Because people don't like the result and misunderstand the tender process they try to claim it was a stitch-up with zero evidence to back it up.

If anything was unwise on the part of CC it was restricting bids to either individual compliant bids per lot or alternative bids (including package bids), thus precluding operators from submitting individual compliant bids and also package bids for the same lots. There was no need to do that, but I guess it was done to simplify the evaluation. What they didn't predict was the audacity of GCB's tender submission.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yes, it's obvious six years down the line that plenty of people still have no idea about the tendering process and how GCB managed to submit the Most Economically Advantageous Tender for all routes. Because people don't like the result and misunderstand the tender process they try to claim it was a stitch-up with zero evidence to back it up.

If anything was unwise on the part of CC it was restricting bids to either individual compliant bids per lot or alternative bids (including package bids), thus precluding operators from submitting individual compliant bids and also package bids for the same lots. There was no need to do that, but I guess it was done to simplify the evaluation. What they didn't predict was the audacity of GCB's tender submission.
100% agree with you on this!
 

DaveHarries

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I have to correct one thing. GSW have improved significantly, but you must be the only person they've never let down.
I have used GCB services a few times; such as the Newquay line being closed for works (which necessitated a trip from Newquay to St. Austell on a 21), a late afternoon work jaunt to St. Stephen (resulting in use of a Service 22 to Truro), a 16A from Penzance to Lower Ninnes and also an 8 from Sancreed to Penzance. Had one or two more trips than that too and no issues with any of them apart from that 21 being about 15 late leaving Newquay which was no inconvenience.

Given that Stagecoach have served a declaration of intent (which doesn't surprise me given their fairly recently opened yard at Bodmin) it will be interesting to see what happens after the next retendering.

One last thought: it seems from what has been posted here - https://bustimes.org/licences/PH0000135 - that the 25 is being shortened to operate St. Blazey to St. Austell only. Perhaps an increase in frequency for the 24 may happen instead although I don't know if the 24 gets busy enough to justify that.

Dave
 
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Simon75

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Indeed - think Stagecoach have already served a declaration of intent.
What exactly does that mean,and how will it affect the public?

Are all of Go Ahead depots (i know Plymouth is one) proper bus depots,
rather than shared yard with the council?
 

Express380

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What exactly does that mean,and how will it affect the public?

Are all of Go Ahead depots (i know Plymouth is one) proper bus depots,
rather than shared yard with the council?
Penzance is certainly the latter.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Are all of Go Ahead depots (i know Plymouth is one) proper bus depots,
rather than shared yard with the council?
They are generally shared Cormac facilities with the exception of the old Summercourt Travel site (not large) and Liskeard which has basic facilities. Full listing is on DVSA Operator Search.
What exactly does that mean,and how will it affect the public?
In that Stagecoach won the Callywith College work and opened a Bodmin outbase.
 

FirstKernow

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They are generally shared Cormac facilities with the exception of the old Summercourt Travel site (not large) and Liskeard which has basic facilities. Full listing is on DVSA Operator Search.

In that Stagecoach won the Callywith College work and opened a Bodmin outbase.
Helston isn't Council either ,its in the old Flambards site where First once were .
 

Whiteway215

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Only a light hearted comment but with all the discussion surrounding Go Ahead depots I don’t suppose they will need the former First outstation at Padstow.
I think it holds the award for the most quaintly named outstation in the country.
’Field next door to Tesco, Trevethan Farm, Sarah’s Lane, Padstow.
 

Goldfish62

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Only a light hearted comment but with all the discussion surrounding Go Ahead depots I don’t suppose they will need the former First outstation at Padstow.
I think it holds the award for the most quaintly named outstation in the country.
’Field next door to Tesco, Trevethan Farm, Sarah’s Lane, Padstow.
Yes, that was a great name!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Looking at the registration for the 1/1A on Bustimes.org it states that it's a renumbering of the 5/5A and extension to Land's End. Makes some sense although in practice it seems inevitable that parts of both current routes won't be served, or journey times to/from beyond Sheffield will be extended.

For example it states Alverton as an intermediate point - the current 1/1A runs direct to Newlyn via the promenade. Presumably the route will also run via Gwavas Estate and Paul.


Variation history​

    • Received18 Dec 25
    • Effective15 Feb 26

    • Renumber service from 5/5A to 1/1AExtend service to Lands EndRevise terminal pointsAdd Sunday serviceRevise timetable accordingluy

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

a) 4 & 4A to give 2bph between St. Just and Penzance with the 4A via. Madron (although I wouldn't have thought 2bph between Penzance and St. Just would be sustainable. As an aside I have always thought that Boscaswell Estate, when I have looked at it on Google Maps, looks quite a tight spot for a terminus and I wonder why they don't do Penzance - Newbridge - Pendeen - Botallack - St. Just instead and use St. Just Bus Station as the terminus.

or

b) Service 4 to be Penzance - (Boscaswell Estate) as per Service 17E unless they reverse it as per my suggestion above, at 1bph and have the 4A running fast Penzance - Newbridge - St. Just as positioning journeys.
Pretty close it seems!

A Go Cornwall driver on Facebook has reported the following:

4: Penzance - Madron - Morvah - Pendeen - St Just
4A: Penzance - Newbridge - St Just - Pendeen
 
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I'm here now

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Yes, that was a great name!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Looking at the registration for the 1/1A on Bustimes.org it states that it's a renumbering of the 5/5A and extension to Land's End. Makes some sense although in practice it seems inevitable that parts of both current routes won't be served, or journey times to/from beyond Sheffield will be extended.

For example it states Alverton as an intermediate point - the current 1/1A runs direct to Newlyn via the promenade. Presumably the route will also run via Gwavas Estate and Paul.




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Pretty close it seems!

A Go Cornwall driver on Facebook has reported the following:

4: Penzance - Madron - Morvah - Pendeen - St Just
4A: Penzance - Newbridge - St Just - Pendeen
That’s a great win for connectivity if so!
 

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