Go Cornwall Bus

[83G/84D]

Citaro 81 which is a driver training bus is out in West Cornwall today.

 

[richw]

That's right. I was agreeing with you.

I was meaning to clarify my own post as I didn’t think I was clear that they were still more expensive.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was meaning to clarify my own post as I didn’t think I was clear that they were still more expensive.

Ah, no worries.

 

[jammy36]

I don't think there's any confusion as to who owns the TfC brand. It's the council. The confusion is using it on a GCB commercial service.

I'm told staff were out and about promoting it yesterday. Shame they can't be bothered to post timetables for services they've been running for well over two months now.

Indeed, but what is the TfC brand meant to represent, what is its purpose...?

According to the TfC website "Transport for Cornwall is the name of the partnership between Cornwall Council, Go Cornwall Bus and other local public transport providers working towards the delivery of the vision for a high-quality, integrated and customer-focused public transport network." and that "Services under contract to Cornwall Council will be branded as Transport for Cornwall".

But if there is no cross ticketing with the main commercial operator how can it be "integrated and customer-focused"...? How can a "high-quality" public transport network not have timetables at bus stops yet...?

The website and printed publicity also says "Further information about the services to be run, can be obtained from respective bus companies." That's fine for OTS and Hopleys who both have functional, if basic websites (Travel Cornwall just effectively points you back to the TfC webpages), presumably all paid for by the companies... but what about Go Cornwall Bus who have no online presence.

This is because the TfC website is effectively the Go Cornwall Bus website - all the contact details are for Go Cornwall Bus, it contains job adverts for drivers for Go Cornwall Bus and it promotes Go Cornwall Bus corporate announcements, but... who is paying for the website - is it Cornwall Council as part of the tender (after all they are apparently owners of the TfC brand (and certainly don't maintain their own public transport pages))?

Yet the TfC website and brand is also being used by Go Cornwall Bus for its commercial bus routes and the the commercial and non commercial routes are being published and publicised together - how is the cost split for design work, branding, publicity, etc - all things that First Kernow have to cover as part of their costs for their commercial services?

Now we have the daft situation where timetables still aren't being placed at bus stops, but someone is going around and changing all the bus stop signs so these carry Transport for Cornwall branding (and any First Kernow signs being removed at the same time) - why not post the timetables when changing the flag stops?! The new flags themselves are pretty uninspiring with just a picture of a bus and the wording bus stop in red on a white background and below a red background area with the TfC web-address and logo. Useful information like the stop name (might be helpful in a county with lots of tourists who might be less familiar with the area) or links to traveline are no longer present.

This loops back to the above point about the website- who is paying for the signs? Cornwall Council say they own and maintain the network of bus shelters and bus stops across the county - so presumably them? Is this fair - there is no mention of First Kernow on the signs and no web-link for them, but Go Cornwall Bus commercial services are effectively being promoted by the council as these are included as part of the TfC website?

What happens if Go Cornwall Bus start more commercial services - including services directly competing over FK's core commercial routes - things could get messy if the TfC brand continues to be used for Go Ahead's commercial services.

This isn't my idea of "a high-quality, integrated and customer-focused public transport network".

 

[richw]

@jammy36 part of the council press release that all vehicles will have usb and WiFi. None of the 20 plate E200mmcs have WiFi and only a usb charging socket adjacent to the wheelchair Space, with no usb at each seat.

 

[jammy36]

@jammy36 part of the council press release that all vehicles will have usb and WiFi. None of the 20 plate E200mmcs have WiFi and only a usb charging socket adjacent to the wheelchair Space, with no usb at each seat.

Yes, I believe that's been raised before. I think this is understandable and excusable in the short term, as the need to acquire a large number of buses at short notice, has meant use of "dealer stock" vehicles that don't routinely have such extras fitted. Less forgiveable if future vehicles ordered and built to TfC spec have the same omissions. Of course both are theoretically easy to retrofit, so there is no excuse why these promised features can't be added once the vehicle situation calms down... but will they bother... I think I can guess the answer!

 

[Busaholic]

This isn't my idea of "a high-quality, integrated and customer-focused public transport network".

And, frankly, it was always highly unlikely that it could get anywhere near achieving any of those admirable sentiments. Where did the impetus come from for this new network? From the DfT, doubtless at the behest of a Minister with ambitions (i.e. the usual kind) wanting to make a 'name' for themselves in the constant jockeying for position just in case the P.M. got taken out by a Borisbus, or less appropriate reason. Cornwall will have fitted the bill for the experiment because of (a) its Unitary status, (b) its recent habit of electing Tory MPs in every constituency, so a suitable reward of chucking it a few million or so rather than engage with the thought that a viable alternative to the only rail route out of the region needed to be seriously worked on and enacted before Dawlish collapses into the sea (and Penzance for that matter) and (c) because of the opaque situation surrounding Cornwall Council's precise relationship with Corserv, and its subsidiary Cormac in particular. That situation manages to evade serious scrutiny by subservient local media and is aided by the disengagement of much of the local population in the face of 'local' elections having been 'postponed' for various reasons over recent years, Coronavirus being merely the latest. (Donald Trump should be taking notes.)

So, having arrived at the situation where Cornwall lies in first place to be asked to take charge of the experiment, and having assured Cornwall Council that all funding will be taken care of in the first instance, the question should have been asked at DfT 'is this authority capable of not making a dog's dinner of it within the first few years, or even months, and what has been their relationship with major bus companies in the area in the recent past?' If those sort of questions were asked, I wonder how Cornwall fared: if the questions were asked of Cornwall Council themselves, I'm sure the politicians and senior executives would have given themselves glowing reviews, objectively (!) of course, and assurances that CC had all the necessary expertise to hand, with the proviso that extra resources could be hired in the unlikely event they were needed.

So we are where we are, and the experiment/scheme proceeds without (a) any evidence of lower and co-ordinated fares, supposedly a vital element, (b) no real attempt at co-ordination of different facets of public transport, even the St Erth situation showing no understanding of proper objectives and (c) the understandable total uninterest of the general public in bus services which they are discouraged from using and, in any case, may not wish to in current circumstances. There's no media scrutiny as the public aren't complaining, and there'll be no spike in Council Tax bills to pay for it all. For that, there must be (or should be) some relief at highest levels that other matters are considerably more pressing to everyone and they can carry on playing at being the omnibus version of Fat Controllers.

 

[KendalKing]

GoCornwall Bus are introducing a commercial service (sorry if mentioned, Ive never been to Cornwall so not sure)

Going Commercial

In what has to be said is a low key announcement hidden within their web site Go South West are about to launce their first commercial servi...

www.plymothiantransit.com

There some BIG gaps in the timings, i.e. 1326 from Praa Sands, the next bus isn't until 2101. I don't know about anybody else, but I would telling the operator to stick they service.

 

[richw]

There some BIG gaps in the timings, i.e. 1326 from Praa Sands, the next bus isn't until 2101. I don't know about anybody else, but I would telling the operator to stick they service.

That isn’t a gap in the service.
They are showing a different service number that only operates in late evenings.
The 1326 is the last service on the 2!

 

[fgwrich]

Now we have the daft situation where timetables still aren't being placed at bus stops, but someone is going around and changing all the bus stop signs so these carry Transport for Cornwall branding (and any First Kernow signs being removed at the same time) - why not post the timetables when changing the flag stops?! The new flags themselves are pretty uninspiring with just a picture of a bus and the wording bus stop in red on a white background and below a red background area with the TfC web-address and logo. Useful information like the stop name (might be helpful in a county with lots of tourists who might be less familiar with the area) or links to traveline are no longer present.

This loops back to the above point about the website- who is paying for the signs? Cornwall Council say they own and maintain the network of bus shelters and bus stops across the county - so presumably them? Is this fair - there is no mention of First Kernow on the signs and no web-link for them, but Go Cornwall Bus commercial services are effectively being promoted by the council as these are included as part of the TfC website?

Yes, interestingly MMH picked up with regards to the bus stop signs being changed from FK / Multi Operator to TfC ones last week over on Twitter. I don't think anyone has been impressed by this move, which hints at TfC Being the only operator in Cornwall. Thankfully First Kernow do still exist, and I would rather nor image the chaos if GCB ran the whole lot.

I do fully agree with your statement too.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, interestingly MMH picked up with regards to the bus stop signs being changed from FK / Multi Operator to TfC ones last week over on Twitter. I don't think anyone has been impressed by this move, which hints at TfC Being the only operator in Cornwall. Thankfully First Kernow do still exist, and I would rather nor image the chaos if GCB ran the whole lot.

I do fully agree with your statement too.

The whole thing is completely bonkers.

TfC was obviously conceived by the council as an over-arching brand for all public transport in Cornwall, as with the metropolitan combined authority areas (TfGM, TfWM), but in practice the complete opposite is happening and the network is being seemingly, deliberately or due to gross incompetence, de-integrated including what seems like attempts to undermine the main commercial bus operator.

Does the council not realise that if FK's network is undermined it could leave it (CC) with a bill to support bus services that would otherwise have run commercially?

 

[richw]

Does the council not realise that if FK's network is undermined it could leave it (CC) with a bill to support bus services that would otherwise have run commercially?

No they don’t know their elbow from their backside when it comes to running buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The whole thing is completely bonkers.

TfC was obviously conceived by the council as an over-arching brand for all public transport in Cornwall, as with the metropolitan combined authority areas (TfGM, TfWM), but in practice the complete opposite is happening and the network is being seemingly, deliberately or due to gross incompetence, de-integrated including what seems like attempts to undermine the main commercial bus operator.

Does the council not realise that if FK's network is undermined it could leave it (CC) with a bill to support bus services that would otherwise have run commercially?

It seems that CC have got carried away with the money that they have and their own egotism. They wanted something bold and impressive and all consuming (like TfL) but have singularly got it wrong. It's a trait of many public bodies in that you can't decide whether it's naivety or arrogance in assuming that "we will just do this" and it'll be fine.

CC had the opportunity to have a properly comprehensive public transport network. Imagine that as part of the original scope, all potential tenderers would actually have input on designing the new network? Then you might have sensible things like an evening service on the T2 rather than doubling Truro to St Mawes.

Also that as a condition of participating in the tender process, there were some simple things or operators to sign up to. It might have been:

• Confirming their participation in Ride Cornwall for the next X years (with pricing formula agreed) and possibly a bus only option
• Acceptance of other operator tickets on tendered services where commercial and tendered operators are different (e.g U4)
  • Linked to this operators must show the tendered services in their timetables even if they are operated by another firm
• Signing up to other TfC fare initiatives (e.g. reduced fares for under 21 year olds) and acceptance of at least some TfC brand awareness irrespective of whether it was Go Ahead, First or Stagecoach or whoever (as per the Metro sign that is on every bus in West Yorkshire

With the exception of the last one, these are pretty simple concessions to make or integrate into your submission.

It might also have been a sensible idea to speak to all operators to understand what they needed in terms of bus priority and infrastructure, again as part of shaping the new world. Oh, and have a sensible, achievable timeline for implementing all of these changes.

Instead, we've got a "them and us" situation and partisan leanings on both sides of the argument, an alienated major operator, and a new firm that were faced with setting up a totally new operation from scratch in a farcically short timeframe.

 

[baza585]

It seems that CC have got carried away with the money that they have and their own egotism. They wanted something bold and impressive and all consuming (like TfL) but have singularly got it wrong. It's a trait of many public bodies in that you can't decide whether it's naivety or arrogance in assuming that "we will just do this" and it'll be fine.

CC had the opportunity to have a properly comprehensive public transport network. Imagine that as part of the original scope, all potential tenderers would actually have input on designing the new network? Then you might have sensible things like an evening service on the T2 rather than doubling Truro to St Mawes.

Also that as a condition of participating in the tender process, there were some simple things or operators to sign up to. It might have been:

• Confirming their participation in Ride Cornwall for the next X years (with pricing formula agreed) and possibly a bus only option
• Acceptance of other operator tickets on tendered services where commercial and tendered operators are different (e.g U4)
  • Linked to this operators must show the tendered services in their timetables even if they are operated by another firm
• Signing up to other TfC fare initiatives (e.g. reduced fares for under 21 year olds) and acceptance of at least some TfC brand awareness irrespective of whether it was Go Ahead, First or Stagecoach or whoever (as per the Metro sign that is on every bus in West Yorkshire

With the exception of the last one, these are pretty simple concessions to make or integrate into your submission.

It might also have been a sensible idea to speak to all operators to understand what they needed in terms of bus priority and infrastructure, again as part of shaping the new world. Oh, and have a sensible, achievable timeline for implementing all of these changes.

Instead, we've got a "them and us" situation and partisan leanings on both sides of the argument, an alienated major operator, and a new firm that were faced with setting up a totally new operation from scratch in a farcically short timeframe.

Where's the like button when you need it.

CCC have clearly learned nothing from the Dorset and other fiascos. Indeed in many ways this is even more of a fiasco than the previous ones. Utter proof yet again that councils can't design bus services, or run them.

 

[Goldfish62]

It seems that CC have got carried away with the money that they have and their own egotism. They wanted something bold and impressive and all consuming (like TfL) but have singularly got it wrong. It's a trait of many public bodies in that you can't decide whether it's naivety or arrogance in assuming that "we will just do this" and it'll be fine.

CC had the opportunity to have a properly comprehensive public transport network. Imagine that as part of the original scope, all potential tenderers would actually have input on designing the new network? Then you might have sensible things like an evening service on the T2 rather than doubling Truro to St Mawes.

Also that as a condition of participating in the tender process, there were some simple things or operators to sign up to. It might have been:

• Confirming their participation in Ride Cornwall for the next X years (with pricing formula agreed) and possibly a bus only option
• Acceptance of other operator tickets on tendered services where commercial and tendered operators are different (e.g U4)
  • Linked to this operators must show the tendered services in their timetables even if they are operated by another firm
• Signing up to other TfC fare initiatives (e.g. reduced fares for under 21 year olds) and acceptance of at least some TfC brand awareness irrespective of whether it was Go Ahead, First or Stagecoach or whoever (as per the Metro sign that is on every bus in West Yorkshire

With the exception of the last one, these are pretty simple concessions to make or integrate into your submission.

It might also have been a sensible idea to speak to all operators to understand what they needed in terms of bus priority and infrastructure, again as part of shaping the new world. Oh, and have a sensible, achievable timeline for implementing all of these changes.

Instead, we've got a "them and us" situation and partisan leanings on both sides of the argument, an alienated major operator, and a new firm that were faced with setting up a totally new operation from scratch in a farcically short timeframe.

Excellent post.

Additionally the council should have taken over full responsibility for bus stop maintenance and timetable posting, charging operators a reasonable fee for posting. This works well elsewhere.

An all-bus ticket surely should have been a priority, not only for one day tickets, but for longer periods. The astronomical price of the FK one day ticket is problematic with this, but given that the weekly and longer tickets are far more keenly priced I'd have hoped something could be hammered out.

Obviously we don't know how obstructive or cooperative FK have been, but as the body with the coordination role the onus lies with CC to take the initiative. All I've seen so far indicates that it's going in the opposite direction.

 

[richw]

Obviously we don't know how obstructive or cooperative FK have been

I’m told zero contact from the council to discuss ticketing...

 

[MotCO]

Given the recent posts about the failings of the TfC operations, particularly the lack of an integrated network, interavilability of tickets and poor bus stop information, how will this end up? Clearly it is not a quality service. Go Cornwall appear to be haemorrhaging money according to earlier posts. Will Go Cornwall up their game, given their recent appointment of a new Operations Director? Will they find recruitment of drivers and other staff impossible? Will they quit? Can they sub-contract to First Kernow?

 

[richw]

Been told By a TFC employee a number of services Are lost today due to no driver.
A look at the tracking data for the 27/27a possibly highlights an issue on that route.

 

[carlberry]

Given the recent posts about the failings of the TfC operations, particularly the lack of an integrated network, interavilability of tickets and poor bus stop information, how will this end up? Clearly it is not a quality service. Go Cornwall appear to be haemorrhaging money according to earlier posts. Will Go Cornwall up their game, given their recent appointment of a new Operations Director? Will they find recruitment of drivers and other staff impossible? Will they quit? Can they sub-contract to First Kernow?

Because of the contract the money is guaranteed. The new operations director should improve Go's operation however I cant see the county councils's plan to introduce a new integrated transport system whilst ignoring the major bus operator in the area improving any time soon.

 

[richw]

The new operations director should improve Go's operation

Assuming he’s given the resources and opportunity. A part of me is sceptical he will be used as a scapegoat if things don’t fix. Without adequate resources he doesn’t stand a chance

 

[Lizard1324]

Question to anyone that knows, why do different tfc enviro 200mmc have diffrent painted from lower bumpers and the plastic plate holders.
What I mean is the lower black plastic like in this image below shows that the lower bumper and plate holder are black which is what u thought they all where as that was the colour scheme but after looking more carefully some have the bumper like below.
But some have a half red and half black bumoer like image image 3 or completely red like image 2, is there a reason or what it just a paint shop over sight.
Image 2 =
Image shows full red lower bumper
Image 3 =
Image shows half red half black lower bumper

 

[richw]

@Lizard1324 simple answer. Bodged repairs

 

[matt_splat]

Been told By a TFC employee a number of services Are lost today due to no driver.
A look at the tracking data for the 27/27a possibly highlights an issue on that route.

a few go northern drivers who do Nat Ex work are heading south today i believe on a 3 month loan

 

[Whiteway215]

a few go northern drivers who do Nat Ex work are heading south today i believe on a 3 month loan

Didn’t RichW say some agency drivers were moving on at the end of this month?

 

[Busaholic]

No they don’t know their elbow from their backside when it comes to running buses.

No they don’t know their elbow from their backside when it comes to running buses.

Problem is lack of elbows, greased or otherwise, and a proliferation of a*ses.

 

[richw]

Didn’t RichW say some agency drivers were moving on at the end of this month?

All of them are contracted until 31/8/20. Led to believe around half have extended a further 6 months, and others off to somewhere around 10 miles south east Of Bristol....

 

[Whiteway215]

All of them are contracted until 31/8/20. Led to believe around half have extended a further 6 months, and others off to somewhere around 10 miles south east Of Bristol....

Must get out my map and compass to work out where the others are off to........!!!

 

[richw]

Must get out my map and compass to work out where the others are off to........!!!

I gather there is a university that sees a uplift in bus services

 

[swifty]

Must get out my map and compass to work out where the others are off to........!!!

You live there....

 

[Whiteway215]

You live there....

Very true! I have been wondering just what the extent of Uni services will be compared to previous years with a lack of overseas students and possibly online lectures not requiring students to travel to the Unis.