Go Cornwall Bus

[berneyarms]

All true, but it is also true today that there is considerable scope to allocate Group level expenses between subsidiaries so as to massage the level of reported profits. Not saying that this happened in the case of PCB, but it would be difficult to spot if it were.

Could I suggest that you re-read the earlier posts that are linked to in my post.

Allocating group level expenses would reduce subsidiary profits.

The claims being made above to which I responded were that PCB operating profits were higher due to cash injections from the parent. Your example would be the complete opposite effect to that mentioned, and to be honest as such irrelevant to this discussion.

That is before you consider that it isn’t possible to consider such injections as income in arriving at operating profit.

 

[baza585]

Could I suggest that you re-read the earlier posts that are linked to in my post.

Allocating group level expenses would reduce subsidiary profits.

The claims being made above to which I responded were that PCB operating profits were higher due to cash injections from the parent. Your example would be the complete opposite effect to that mentioned, and to be honest as such irrelevant to this discussion.

That is before you consider that it isn’t possible to consider such injections as income in arriving at operating profit.

I had ready read the posts above thank you. The point I was trying to make is that by reallocating Go Ahead group overheads to other subsidiaries, the reported profits of PCB could have been artificially inflated by depressing reported costs. Not saying it happened, merely that it was possible.

I agree capital injections do not affect reported profits directly, although there might be a second order effect of reduction in interest paid or increase in investment income within the subsidiary.

Nonetheless with helpful auditors, it is relatively straightforward to massage reported profits to an limited extent. However I have no hard evidence that this has happened in this case.

 

[jammy36]

it is relatively straightforward to massage reported profits to an limited extent

Remembering of course that this conversation came about because of the claim that Plymouth Citybus had "lost tens of millions between 2010-2015". The point others and myself are making is that the published accounts show this to be clearly untrue. Turning a loss of tens of millions into a profit is not massaging figures to a limited extent.

 

[83G/84D]

There is a western greyhound flag outside my house, pcb took over operating past here in December 2014!

Truronian, CorLink ( remember that?), Trevithick link & Western Greyhound branded stops dotted around West Cornwall if you look hard enough. Some are on very old poles / posts as well.

 

[Busaholic]

At Newlyn Bridge there's an old style First one with an "open top 1/1A" sticker on it!

Took a look at the Penzance-bound stop at Newlyn Bridge today. What is the point of a specific Mousehole flag when M6 buses using the stop have come from Mousehole? It can only lead to confusion. Even more ridiculous is the Market Jew Street stop opposite Poundland also bearing this flag, when the Mousehole buses jeave from almost directly opposite. It's branding too far.

 

[Goldfish62]

Took a look at the Penzance-bound stop at Newlyn Bridge today. What is the point of a specific Mousehole flag when M6 buses using the stop have come from Mousehole? It can only lead to confusion. Even more ridiculous is the Market Jew Street stop opposite Poundland also bearing this flag, when the Mousehole buses jeave from almost directly opposite. It's branding too far.

They've had those flags for years. Given that pink buses with "the Mousehole" names on them serve the stops it's completely sensible. At least it is to me...

 

[Busaholic]

They've had those flags for years. Given that pink buses with "the Mousehole" names on them serve the stops it's completely sensible. At least it is to me...

I know they've had them for years, but then the buses themselves erroneously carried the message 'up to every twenty minutes' for a period of getting on for two years, so it doesn't make it right. It might not be the case now, but when I used to go and wait for a 17 bus to St Ives in Market Jew Street, the uninitiated wouldn't immediately see that it went from their, but they would know the Mousehole bus did, except of course it didn't! The Mousehole branded stops should only have been put up in the westbound direction imo.

 

[Goldfish62]

I know they've had them for years, but then the buses themselves erroneously carried the message 'up to every twenty minutes' for a period of getting on for two years, so it doesn't make it right. It might not be the case now, but when I used to go and wait for a 17 bus to St Ives in Market Jew Street, the uninitiated wouldn't immediately see that it went from their, but they would know the Mousehole bus did, except of course it didn't! The Mousehole branded stops should only have been put up in the westbound direction imo.

But surely following that logic the Mousehole names on the buses should be covered up on all journeys towards Penzance!

I agree though that it was a rather crude application of branding. Would have been better to have a branding stapline on relevant stops. That way several brands as appropriate could be applied to stops.

 

[Busaholic]

But surely following that logic the Mousehole names on the buses should be covered up on all journeys towards Penzance!

I agree though that it was a rather crude application of branding. Would have been better to have a branding stapline on relevant stops. That way several brands as appropriate could be applied to stops.

Some people would say that about the bus covering, but I would never be amongst them! Branded buses on the WRONG route, however! Not serious about the latter by the way, but I don't like seeing it as a day-to-day thing, it's not a great advert for the operator. At Newlyn Bridge the Pz-bound stop is very obvious and visible,the Mousehole-bound one much less so, so I can easily imagine people at least waiting at the wrong stop, if not getting on the wrong bus. Little frustrations can lead to visitors deciding never to revisit areas, and Cornwall can't afford to put anyone off coming back, as I'm sure you'd agree.

 

[richw]

Some people would say that about the bus covering, but I would never be amongst them! Branded buses on the WRONG route, however! Not serious about the latter by the way, but I don't like seeing it as a day-to-day thing, it's not a great advert for the operator. At Newlyn Bridge the Pz-bound stop is very obvious and visible,the Mousehole-bound one much less so, so I can easily imagine people at least waiting at the wrong stop, if not getting on the wrong bus. Little frustrations can lead to visitors deciding never to revisit areas, and Cornwall can't afford to put anyone off coming back, as I'm sure you'd agree.

A well designed route branding could double up as an advert if off route for the actual route. A giant mobile billboard for mousehole or coasters etc

 

[Busaholic]

A well designed route branding could double up as an advert if off route for the actual route. A giant mobile billboard for mousehole or coasters etc

First Kernow should appoint you as Head of P.R., job to be done in-between driving duties, of course. A sort of driving roving ambassador. I'm not being rude, by the way, at least not intentionally: the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. FK could do a lot worse: they ought to make more of the Mousehole poet driver too, if it was agreeable to him. This sort of thing could have an impact on the travelling public in the difficult times to come when the visitors have gone and Cornwall Council are able to say marvellous things about Transport for Cornwall and get free and uncritical media coverage for it, at least in the first instance.

 

[richw]

Richard Stevens was on BBC spotlight pleading poverty and if money or passengers don’t come back Go Southwest will have to make widespread cuts

 

[Busaholic]

Richard Stevens was on BBC spotlight pleading poverty and if money or passengers don’t come back Go Southwest will have to make widespread cuts

As a general statement, that is true of every unsubsidised bus company in the country and, indeed, the world. It's not a question of pleading poverty.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Richard Stevens was on BBC spotlight pleading poverty and if money or passengers don’t come back Go Southwest will have to make widespread cuts

It’s the truth. If it wasn’t for the government cash, the industry would be screwed and tbh, it still may be when the money runs out. Perhaps these words from First’s press release should remembered “Travel volumes have reduced very substantially and while guidance to limit travel and socially distance remains in place, this will have a significant impact on our service capacity and financial performance. At the same time, governments and customers recognise the need to maintain our transport services and are enabling this through fiscal, contractual and other support. There are material uncertainties as to how rapidly demand will increase, the rate at which fiscal support tapers and the duration of social distancing rules”

Be under no illusion - this is going to be difficult for all firms, irrespective of your allegiances.

 

[richw]

As a general statement, that is true of every unsubsidised bus company in the country and, indeed, the world. It's not a question of pleading poverty.

Your statement is the opposite of fact. Commercial services are eligible for covid grants (as long as they don’t turn a profit)
Subsidised services aren’t eligible for gov cash for covid. Thus TfC will only be receiving their council subsidy which will be presumably be bid based on the pre covid average passenger numbers roughly.

 

[Busaholic]

Your statement is the opposite of fact. Commercial services are eligible for covid grants (as long as they don’t turn a profit)

In the real world, lack of passengers when the buses are available and running = loss of those buses over time, be it a short, medium or long term thing. How long will covid grants be available for? By the way, supposed eligibility for grants can be theoretically possible but immensely difficult to achieve in practice.

The most recent Liquidator's Report for Western Greyhound Ltd reveals that not a penny of the over £100,000 the liquidator claims Cornwall Council owes in reimbursement of ENCTS fares has been paid, with no evidence that it ever will be. In the liquidator's opinion the money is owed: CC probably think they need do nothing unless or until they face legal action, which appears unlikely to happen. That is an example of where theory and practice are two entirely different things, not that I'm suggesting this stupendously efficient and rational government will baulk at the pay-outs when they are due to make them.

 

[richw]

Your statement is the opposite of fact. Commercial services are eligible for covid grants (as long as they don’t turn a profit)
Subsidised services aren’t eligible for gov cash for covid. Thus TfC will only be receiving their council subsidy which will be presumably be bid based on the pre covid average passenger numbers roughly.

Subsidised services can claim additional funding through local authority funding, a separate funding source to commercial services

 

[farwest]

A well designed route branding could double up as an advert if off route for the actual route. A giant mobile billboard for mousehole or coasters etc

I agree with that. It is a really good advert for services when operating on other routes. People notice the Tinner routes when one appears on the Uni services.

 

[Goldfish62]

I agree with that. It is a really good advert for services when operating on other routes. People notice the Tinner routes when one appears on the Uni services.

That old chestnut, "branded buses advertise routes when they're on the wrong route and that's a good thing" is often rolled out in such circumstances.

Every single bus industry manager knows it's complete claptrap, however there's no convincing some people.

 

[carlberry]

That old chestnut, "branded buses advertise routes when they're on the wrong route and that's a good thing" is often rolled out in such circumstances.

Every single bus industry manager knows it's complete claptrap, however there's no convincing some people.

To be fair it works if it's a more specialist product. Something like the Oxford Tube or an high spec Airbus type vehicle is a useful advert for people who didnt realise that the service was available. However these kind of high spec vehicle are never run on other services! Where it's just advertising a service from A to B when the passengers using it are actually more interested in getting from A to C then it's just bad allocation, potentially confusing and (in normal times) the operator needs to raise it's game.

 

[MotCO]

Just Callywith isn't it, but they're looking long term probably

Like with Kernow when they lost the council work, they will need something for their drivers to avoid redundancies if they aren't successful in 8 years time

Wouldn't TUPE apply, transferring most staff to the new tenderer, unless Go South West wish to retain the staff for other services in Cornwall.

 

[MB162435]

Wouldn't TUPE apply, transferring most staff to the new tenderer, unless Go South West wish to retain the staff for other services in Cornwall.

With a brand like Go South West they aren't just hanging around for 8 years and then moving on, and can't see Kernow being too desperate for the Council work again now with their new contracts

 

[richw]

Wouldn't TUPE apply, transferring most staff to the new tenderer,

Lots of ifs what’s and maybes. If the drivers start working a mix of Different contracts and commercial stuff Then tupe wouldn’t necessarily apply. A few ex colleagues were told they had to Have workEd an average percentage of our driving each week to be council tenders each week to be eligible for tupe to TFC. There also has to be threat of redundancy from loss of contract. Those ex colleagues all took new starter contracts that I’ve spoken to.

 

[Goldfish62]

To be fair it works if it's a more specialist product. Something like the Oxford Tube or an high spec Airbus type vehicle is a useful advert for people who didnt realise that the service was available. However these kind of high spec vehicle are never run on other services! Where it's just advertising a service from A to B when the passengers using it are actually more interested in getting from A to C then it's just bad allocation, potentially confusing and (in normal times) the operator needs to raise it's game.

Yes, agreed. Branding is not advertising! In the case of a Tinner appearing on a U lines route all it's advertising is that the bus is on the wrong route.

As much as I like the very smart Kernow brands I was surprised when they were introduced given the tendency for anything to appear on any route.

In general, the Tinner and U lines buses have mostly stuck to intended routes. Probably the biggest farce was that the closed top AC (not A5) liveried Tridents obviously intended for the A1 and A17 seemed to spend most of their time at Helston.

 

[Goldfish62]

Lots of ifs what’s and maybes. If the drivers start working a mix of Different contracts and commercial stuff Then tupe wouldn’t necessarily apply. A few ex colleagues were told they had to Have workEd an average percentage of our driving each week to be council tenders each week to be eligible for tupe to TFC. There also has to be threat of redundancy from loss of contract. Those ex colleagues all took new starter contracts that I’ve spoken to.

Yes that would be correct, plus the employer people are moving from has to formally invoke TUPE. It's can't be done without that.

 

[MotCO]

Yes that would be correct, plus the employer people are moving from has to formally invoke TUPE. It's can't be done without that.

Yes, it is the 'old' employer who determines whether TUPE applies in full or part, but it is a way to avoid redundancy costs, which was the basis of my original post.

 

[cnjb8]

GoCornwall Bus are introducing a commercial service (sorry if mentioned, Ive never been to Cornwall so not sure)

Going Commercial

In what has to be said is a low key announcement hidden within their web site Go South West are about to launce their first commercial servi...

www.plymothiantransit.com

 

[jammy36]

GoCornwall Bus are introducing a commercial service (sorry if mentioned, Ive never been to Cornwall so not sure)

Going Commercial

In what has to be said is a low key announcement hidden within their web site Go South West are about to launce their first commercial servi...

www.plymothiantransit.com

The branding used on the timetable for this commercial service as being Transport for Cornwall as opposed to Go Cornwall Bus does seem to further muddy the waters as to who controls the 'rights' to the brand and what Transport for Cornwall represents.

Does this service appear in the Transport for Cornwall timetable booklet and if so why this commercial service but not others, from say, First Kernow?

 

[MB162435]

The branding used on the timetable for this commercial service as being Transport for Cornwall as opposed to Go Cornwall Bus does seem to further muddy the waters as to who controls the 'rights' to the brand and what Transport for Cornwall represents.

Does this service appear in the Transport for Cornwall timetable booklet and if so why this commercial service but not others, from say, First Kernow?

It is part of the timetable booklet, was in the one I got from Newquay bus station two weeks ago on a separate pice of paper inserted in, although will likely be in the book properly eventually

I assume Kernow ones aren't included as GCB is the incumbent TfC operator not Kernow, although their services are mentioned

 

[Lizard1324]

Transport for cornwalls - 68
Dennis Dart SLF Plaxton Pointer 2 - Wa03 BHX
This is one of two 03 plate darts and is the second oldest bus in the fleet