Go Cornwall Bus

[carlberry]

I’ve been told Kingsley village has a citybus fuel card saved behind the counter now.

I might try an 'eyesight test' in my RE down there then, I'll put a 'Transport for Cornwall' sticker in the window!

 

[MotCO]

I might try an 'eyesight test' in my RE down there then, I'll put a 'Transport for Cornwall' sticker in the window!

That will confuse the local folk - a bus actually running! Hope you don't run out of fuel.

 

[MotCO]

If a bus runs out of fuel, do you have to bleed the system to get the fuel through to the engine, or is that ancient history?

 

[richw]

If a bus runs out of fuel, do you have to bleed the system to get the fuel through to the engine, or is that ancient history?

depends, if yes it’s more complicated Than in history due to the high pressure fuel system.
If you don’t try and restart the engine after cut out you’ll probably get away without needing to bleed. If you try and start it, almost certainly will need a bleed

 

[Spsf3232]

Very few buses have fuel gauges or even if they do very inaccurate. Only way to know what's in the tank is to dip the tank from filler cap.

 

[richw]

Very few buses have fuel gauges or even if they do very inaccurate. Only way to know what's in the tank is to dip the tank from filler cap.

The entire first kernow fleet have gauges that are pretty accurate. Modern stuff does have gauges, or maybe first specify it as an extra?

 

[Goldfish62]

The entire first kernow fleet have gauges that are pretty accurate. Modern stuff does have gauges, or maybe first specify it as an extra?

Well I know the Borismasters only have a fuel gauge buried deep in the menu on the driver's screen and other reasonably modern London spec buses I've driven in the past don't have them, or not such that they're immediately obvious.

 

[richw]

Well I know the Borismasters only have a fuel gauge buried deep in the menu on the driver's screen and other reasonably modern London spec buses I've driven in the past don't have them, or not such that they're immediately obvious.

Our Geminis have a very prominent fuel gauge, as do our MMCs. The old tridents don’t have one.

 

[83G/84D]

Three dual door E200’s seen in Camborne today, 2203, 2207 & 2211.

 

[83G/84D]

Former First Kernow E200MMC WK18 BVF seen today in TfC red carrying fleet number 2000.

 

[Yarp1]

This is speculative and yes I work for FK but I am trying to be unbiased and look at the reality
Last year it was said that first was up for sale.
With all this stuff going on with PCB/GC it does make me wonder if when the tenders had to be in by october last year that pcb took a gamble that as first were for sale they would be able to pick off the rest of FK such as depots and drivers as there woidnt be much interest from other companys.
I know people will say that GA/PCB/GC wouldnt take a gamble like this.
Their depots around Cornwall with the exceptions of OTS,HOPLEYS and SUMMERCOURT TRAVEL are at best temporary. How long are the "temporary depots" ment to be for because surely it wont be for the whole 8 years. So unless proper depots are built with fuel facility's and maintenance it will be hard for everybody.
So back to my original thought did GA/PCB/GC take a gamble which didnt pay off and are they now playing the waiting game in hope that FIRST may go uo up for sale and then they will be able to step in and have everything for themselves because at the moment its costing a lot of money.
Like I said I am trying to be unbiased but this is how it would seem

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is speculative and yes I work for FK but I am trying to be unbiased and look at the reality
Last year it was said that first was up for sale.
With all this stuff going on with PCB/GC it does make me wonder if when the tenders had to be in by october last year that pcb took a gamble that as first were for sale they would be able to pick off the rest of FK such as depots and drivers as there woidnt be much interest from other companys.
I know people will say that GA/PCB/GC wouldnt take a gamble like this.
Their depots around Cornwall with the exceptions of OTS,HOPLEYS and SUMMERCOURT TRAVEL are at best temporary. How long are the "temporary depots" ment to be for because surely it wont be for the whole 8 years. So unless proper depots are built with fuel facility's and maintenance it will be hard for everybody.
So back to my original thought did GA/PCB/GC take a gamble which didnt pay off and are they now playing the waiting game in hope that FIRST may go uo up for sale and then they will be able to step in and have everything for themselves because at the moment its costing a lot of money.
Like I said I am trying to be unbiased but this is how it would seem

I don't think so.

Yes, we know that First was up for sale but that businesses weren't just going to disappear. More likely was that the UK Bus business would be spun off in its own right but could have been bought by a third party. Arguably, by going into Cornwall now, it makes it less likely they would be able to buy FK.

The likelihood is that Go Ahead were obviously going to tender to protect their own services in the East. They could have just decided to stay put OR they could elect to try and expand the business, continuing a process that started with the purchase of the WG ops around Liskeard. Remember that they have management who have experience of old so the attraction would certainly be there. Also, there is the precedent in that First were outmanoeuvred by Stagecoach who (on a smaller basis) set up a similar out of area operation in North Devon on the back of tender wins there that led to commercial operations and the eventual abortive sale/retreat by First from that area.

Now obviously, setting up a new operation some distance from your existing territory isn't easy. One way of mitigating that risk is to use a range of local partners or sub-contractors. This is common in many other industries but less so in bus travel. One small scale example where it does happen is with First Cymru and their services to Aberystwyth. Two vehicles are not only outbased with Mid Wales, that firm also supplies the drivers and undertakes small scale running repairs. Hopleys and OTS have always seemed pretty decent firms so it made sense to engage them. Of course, there is a limit on what they can do so PCB needed to have their own bases/resources. Again, the challenge of starting from scratch takes time and resources. So better still that they use existing facilities, and whatever the whys and wherefores of Corserv, it makes sense to engage with one organisation who can provide a number of facilities dotted across the county.

Now the issue of costs. Well, the start up and implementation costs would have been calculated as part of the tender price. That would have been a cost that FK wouldn't have incurred and indeed, FK would have had the benefit of using existing facilities at a marginal cost. The use of sub-contractors would also mean two sets of profit (the subby and PCB = margin on margin). Those may explain why PCB were more expensive that FK.

So who's paying for empty buses running about; where does the revenue risk lie? I don't know though would suggest it is in the tender spec. The risk could sit with PCB - if they've agreed that based on a range of new services with no historical basis, that is dangerous. If the risk sits with CC, then it really doesn't matter.

 

[richw]

where does the revenue risk lie?

The tenders are on fixed cost.

But the majority of routes Involved only carrier 2-3 passengers in normal times so would assume the tendered price is on basis of touching near enough full cost.

An average ball park figure is around £400-500 per bus per day to run all cost chucked in, over to someone who has time to do the maths.

 

[MotCO]

I don't think so.

Yes, we know that First was up for sale but that businesses weren't just going to disappear. More likely was that the UK Bus business would be spun off in its own right but could have been bought by a third party. Arguably, by going into Cornwall now, it makes it less likely they would be able to buy FK.

The likelihood is that Go Ahead were obviously going to tender to protect their own services in the East. They could have just decided to stay put OR they could elect to try and expand the business, continuing a process that started with the purchase of the WG ops around Liskeard. Remember that they have management who have experience of old so the attraction would certainly be there. Also, there is the precedent in that First were outmanoeuvred by Stagecoach who (on a smaller basis) set up a similar out of area operation in North Devon on the back of tender wins there that led to commercial operations and the eventual abortive sale/retreat by First from that area.

Now obviously, setting up a new operation some distance from your existing territory isn't easy. One way of mitigating that risk is to use a range of local partners or sub-contractors. This is common in many other industries but less so in bus travel. One small scale example where it does happen is with First Cymru and their services to Aberystwyth. Two vehicles are not only outbased with Mid Wales, that firm also supplies the drivers and undertakes small scale running repairs. Hopleys and OTS have always seemed pretty decent firms so it made sense to engage them. Of course, there is a limit on what they can do so PCB needed to have their own bases/resources. Again, the challenge of starting from scratch takes time and resources. So better still that they use existing facilities, and whatever the whys and wherefores of Corserv, it makes sense to engage with one organisation who can provide a number of facilities dotted across the county.

Now the issue of costs. Well, the start up and implementation costs would have been calculated as part of the tender price. That would have been a cost that FK wouldn't have incurred and indeed, FK would have had the benefit of using existing facilities at a marginal cost. The use of sub-contractors would also mean two sets of profit (the subby and PCB = margin on margin). Those may explain why PCB were more expensive that FK.

So who's paying for empty buses running about; where does the revenue risk lie? I don't know though would suggest it is in the tender spec. The risk could sit with PCB - if they've agreed that based on a range of new services with no historical basis, that is dangerous. If the risk sits with CC, then it really doesn't matter.

@Yarp1 also referred to the temporary nature of the sites - are the Corserv sites 'temporary', or could they be more permanent? Eight years does seem a long time for temporary facilities - are we talking about portakabins for signing on, messrooms etc, or also temporary workshops for maintenance?

A second, important point relates to refuelling facilities. I don't know whether Corserve have such facilities, but there has been reference previously to fuel cards / refuelling at petrol stations (or should that be diesel?!), and the fact that such pumps are slow, and not high speed as is usual in bus depots. This cannot continue for 8 years, so what are Go Cornwalls's long term plans for this?

 

[richw]

Another point reported from drivers they are having hostilities from certain filling stations surrounding the high volumes of diesel and adblue bottles they are buying.
Vehicles are being swapped to Plymouth for maintainence with Cormac attending roadside breakdowns, with question resource, such as 12V battery boosters when buses have 24V!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

@Yarp1 also referred to the temporary nature of the sites - are the Corserv sites 'temporary', or could they be more permanent? Eight years does seem a long time for temporary facilities - are we talking about portakabins for signing on, messrooms etc, or also temporary workshops for maintenance?

A second, important point relates to refuelling facilities. I don't know whether Corserve have such facilities, but there has been reference previously to fuel cards / refuelling at petrol stations (or should that be diesel?!), and the fact that such pumps are slow, and not high speed as is usual in bus depots. This cannot continue for 8 years, so what are Go Cornwalls's long term plans for this?

Fair points. There is/was obviously a short term imperative to get facilities up and running. Obviously, some of the FK sites are relatively basic, such as Falmouth depot (though appreciate welfare facilities are located in town). What the plans are in terms of developing them....guess we need a PCB mole Arguably, they could probably be better off with Key Fuels so you have commercial vehicle compatibility.

 

[carlberry]

Another point reported from drivers they are having hostilities from certain filling stations surrounding the high volumes of diesel and adblue bottles they are buying.

Given the current level of trade for most filling stations I'd suggest the hostile ones are being somewhat stupid!

 

[carlberry]

Vehicles are being swapped to Plymouth for maintainence with Cormac attending roadside breakdowns, with question resource, such as 12V battery boosters when buses have 24V!

Would 2 12v ones in series work?

 

[MB162435]

Had Kernow been put up for sale I would of thought the only ones interested would of been Go-ahead or Stagecoach, with only those two operating in the South West, can't see the likes of Arriva or Abellio wanting it

Maybe Kernow would of been Go-ahead and BoS been Stagecoach if a sale happened?

Certainly First fleeing Cornwall would of been beneficial for Go-ahead, as was WG packing up was for Kernow, you get all the routes, buses, staff and depot's, had WG still been around today neither Kernow or TfC could have expanded as quickly and successfully as they have done,

Maybe WG would of gone for the TfC work, certainly would of been in a good place to, as they covered most of Cornwall

OTS plans to build a new depot, as they're current depot is a bit small for their current operations now, they certainly couldn't of dreamt that they would operate all local routes when they opened it, if TfC opened new depot's it would certainly need to be in areas similar to Kernow, Truro, Penzance, Newquay etc, how much money they will have to build them post Covid is another matter

 

[carlberry]

Had Kernow been put up for sale I would of thought the only ones interested would of been Go-ahead or Stagecoach, with only those two operating in the South West, can't see the likes of Arriva or Abellio wanting it

Maybe Kernow would of been Go-ahead and BoS been Stagecoach if a sale happened?

Certainly First fleeing Cornwall would of been beneficial for Go-ahead, as was WG packing up was for Kernow, you get all the routes, buses, staff and depot's, had WG still been around today neither Kernow or TfC could have expanded as quickly and successfully as they have done,

Maybe WG would of gone for the TfC work, certainly would of been in a good place to, as they covered most of Cornwall

OTS plans to build a new depot, as they're current depot is a bit small for their current operations now, they certainly couldn't of dreamt that they would operate all local routes when they opened it, if TfC opened new depot's it would certainly need to be in areas similar to Kernow, Truro, Penzance, Newquay etc, how much money they will have to build them post Covid is another matter

If WG was still around the only effect on TfC would have been an additional bidder. Without theres something in the bid about depots then it's PCB's responsibility to open any new depots and they're secure for at least four years as Covid wont effect them (without they're taking revenue risk on routes).

 

[MB162435]

If WG was still around the only effect on TfC would have been an additional bidder. Without theres something in the bid about depots then it's PCB's responsibility to open any new depots and they're secure for at least four years as Covid wont effect them (without they're taking revenue risk on routes).

Certainly new, permanent depots will convey the sense to everyone they they are here to stay, not just for the 8 years, and will certainly improve they're reliability and reputation

Wouldn't of been surprised if WG would of won the TfC work, an established and successful Cornish operator wouldn't of been a bad winner

 

[MB162435]

Ex-Kernow Solo 53814 out and about on it's old stomping ground on the 69A service today, currently on the 12:37 service from Penryn Campus to Falmouth Moor

 

[Yarp1]

I don't think so.

Yes, we know that First was up for sale but that businesses weren't just going to disappear. More likely was that the UK Bus business would be spun off in its own right but could have been bought by a third party. Arguably, by going into Cornwall now, it makes it less likely they would be able to buy FK.

The likelihood is that Go Ahead were obviously going to tender to protect their own services in the East. They could have just decided to stay put OR they could elect to try and expand the business, continuing a process that started with the purchase of the WG ops around Liskeard. Remember that they have management who have experience of old so the attraction would certainly be there. Also, there is the precedent in that First were outmanoeuvred by Stagecoach who (on a smaller basis) set up a similar out of area operation in North Devon on the back of tender wins there that led to commercial operations and the eventual abortive sale/retreat by First from that area.

Now obviously, setting up a new operation some distance from your existing territory isn't easy. One way of mitigating that risk is to use a range of local partners or sub-contractors. This is common in many other industries but less so in bus travel. One small scale example where it does happen is with First Cymru and their services to Aberystwyth. Two vehicles are not only outbased with Mid Wales, that firm also supplies the drivers and undertakes small scale running repairs. Hopleys and OTS have always seemed pretty decent firms so it made sense to engage them. Of course, there is a limit on what they can do so PCB needed to have their own bases/resources. Again, the challenge of starting from scratch takes time and resources. So better still that they use existing facilities, and whatever the whys and wherefores of Corserv, it makes sense to engage with one organisation who can provide a number of facilities dotted across the county.

Now the issue of costs. Well, the start up and implementation costs would have been calculated as part of the tender price. That would have been a cost that FK wouldn't have incurred and indeed, FK would have had the benefit of using existing facilities at a marginal cost. The use of sub-contractors would also mean two sets of profit (the subby and PCB = margin on margin). Those may explain why PCB were more expensive that FK.

So who's paying for empty buses running about; where does the revenue risk lie? I don't know though would suggest it is in the tender spec. The risk could sit with PCB - if they've agreed that based on a range of new services with no historical basis, that is dangerous. If the risk sits with CC, then it really doesn't matter.

Dont chastise me if I have this wrong. I remember western national doing north Cornwall runs from newquay to bude but making a big loss doing it I cant be sure but a superviser at the time told me the routes made a loss of something like £37,000 per year.. The routes then went to western greyhound under tender I believe who expanded the routes but didnt carry any more passengers than WN did.when western greyhound came to a halt over night the council reached out to whowver could do the routes and that is where I believe stagecoach came in and did the north Cornwall runs from wadebridge. FK took over routes from stagecoach who I believe didntt really want it but had done the routes purely because WG had folded. a couple of drivers who i think might have been original greyhound drivers also came over to first.
If I have this wrong then I hold my hands up and apologise
My concern on the original post was that what seems like temporary depot/facility's that pcb/GC/GA have and whether they are taking a long gamble and hoping that FK does eventually sell and depots will be available or if they have long term plan for more permanent depots of some kind

 

[MotCO]

Wouldn't of been surprised if WG would of won the TfC work, an established and successful Cornish operator wouldn't of been a bad winner

I had understood that the tender was a series of lots, not just one big tender. Therefore WG may have won some of the work, or may have won all of it, but we'll never know .

 

[richw]

such as Falmouth depot

Helston is probably the most basic but both Falmouth and helston still have their own fuelling facilities. This seems to be the biggest issue TfC are having.

 

[MB162435]

I had understood that the tender was a series of lots, not just one big tender. Therefore WG may have won some of the work, or may have won all of it, but we'll never know .

Unfortunately we won't, but given that Summercourt was their main base the East Cornwall work would be the best guest

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Dont chastise me if I have this wrong. I remember western national doing north Cornwall runs from newquay to bude but making a big loss doing it I cant be sure but a superviser at the time told me the routes made a loss of something like £37,000 per year.. The routes then went to western greyhound under tender I believe who expanded the routes but didnt carry any more passengers than WN did.when western greyhound came to a halt over night the council reached out to whowver could do the routes and that is where I believe stagecoach came in and did the north Cornwall runs from wadebridge. FK took over routes from stagecoach who I believe didntt really want it but had done the routes purely because WG had folded. a couple of drivers who i think might have been original greyhound drivers also came over to first.
If I have this wrong then I hold my hands up and apologise
My concern on the original post was that what seems like temporary depot/facility's that pcb/GC/GA have and whether they are taking a long gamble and hoping that FK does eventually sell and depots will be available or if they have long term plan for more permanent depots of some kind

Believe me, I wouldn't chastise you. This is a forum and it's fine to have opinions and ask questions. It's fair to say that the area around Wadebridge and Delabole is not exactly superb bus territory. It was discussed on another thread recently how the old Western National vacated the area c.1971 as it was heavily loss making, closing their depots at Bude and Delabole so most of the area was people like Jennings and Prouts. Of course, after deregulation, they were able to go back in and established the Stratton outstation and I think another at Canworthy Water. Even then, it was mainly the X9/X10 (a mix of commercial and tendered journeys) plus various other tendered work.

Western Greyhound managed to win tenders and establish themselves and created a network that certainly improved connectivity but also required a fair bit of financial support, not least the 595 as shown on this declaration of tender results https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/9375812/Published-Results-Final-V1-22-08-14.pdf

Of course, when Western Greyhound collapsed in 2015, it was a scrabble for CC to get operators to cover. At that time, First didn't have Bodmin depot so that may have been why Stagecoach got the gig. How bothered they were about retaining them? Don't know!

Appreciate the current facilities are a little rustic for PCB but they had to get something up and running in a short time scale. What plans they have to develop things further - well, we need a PCB mole (and not Nick in Cornwall). Certainly, they have got a decent place in Liskeard now, and perhaps they might well invest in places like Newquay (where they have the bus station). They have the security of a 4 if not 8 year contract so have time to do things and the financial security to recoup the investment.

 

[richw]

they have got a decent place in Liskeard now

If you’re referred to their liskeard depot (The ex wg outstation), they’ve been served notice to leave. All other businesses in that industrial unit have already gone. The site was sold to a developer and its ear marked for development.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If you’re referred to their liskeard depot (The ex wg outstation), they’ve been served notice to leave. All other businesses in that industrial unit have already gone. The site was sold to a developer and its ear marked for development.

No, I was referring to their new offices in the centre of town for drivers welfare and information office http://www.plymothiantransit.com/2020/03/go-liskeard.html

 

[richw]

No, I was referring to their new offices in the centre of town for drivers welfare and information office http://www.plymothiantransit.com/2020/03/go-liskeard.html

It hasn’t opened yet unless it’s opened in the last week for public enquiries.
I assume the drivers can use it though