Go Cornwall Bus

[MotCO]

The comparison between the bus network of today, and of the future, might be like looking at railway lines pre- and post- Beeching on a map, for the simple reason there may be no subsidy money available and fewer passengers to keep the commercial routes going.

I can see pasenger numbers being down for a number of reasons:

1. Fewer people in employment due to a recession;
2. Passengers preferring to drive for 'social distancing' reasons;
3. Fewer tourists

But I hope I'm wrong and the economy will soon bounce back, and a cure / vaccines will soon be available.

 

[laira 2]

Plenty of buses in Milehouse that can be used. They may not be the buses that will finally be used but will be available to cover the services. I think this always was the plan until all new deliveries have arrived.

 

[richw]

Are all the buses in place? I note that some other Go-Ahead subsidiaries are sending buses to Cornwall, but is there a full complement for the agency drivers to use?

Apparently loads of old double deckers and full length singles.
Talking to their drivers they have nowhere they can fuel a double decker in Cornwall as yet. They’ve been issued fuel cards and all the filling stations they’re valid only have 12ft head clearance with no HGV pump!

 

[richw]

fares are generally more expensive and a potential PR disaster after the much fanfared lower fare media release, especially with the pilot Fare Funding scrapped.
TfC £8.70 single Newquay to truro and £9.00 return!
The driver I was chatting with said £6.00 single and £7.50 return from Fraddon And St Columb major to Newquay,
In interests of fairness TfC are a bit cheaper between Newquay and st Columb minor at £2.00 single and £3.00 return.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apparently loads of old double deckers and full length singles.
Talking to their drivers they have nowhere they can fuel a double decker in Cornwall as yet. They’ve been issued fuel cards and all the filling stations they’re valid only have 12ft head clearance with no HGV pump!

This has been explained before.

The vehicles that have been sent to Plymouth - the old double deckers and full length singles - are NOT for Cornwall. They are for Plymouth to allow newer vehicles to go on loan to TfC in the interim whilst the orders for new vehicles are fulfilled.

Note that many of the vehicles on loan to Plymouth are 57/58 plates so newer than FK's recent arrivals (i.e. Solars, Geminis).

 

[richw]

This has been explained before.

The vehicles that have been sent to Plymouth - the old double deckers and full length singles - are NOT for Cornwall. They are for Plymouth to allow newer vehicles to go on loan to TfC in the interim whilst the orders for new vehicles are fulfilled.

Note that many of the vehicles on loan to Plymouth are 57/58 plates so newer than FK's recent arrivals (i.e. Solars, Geminis).

quite a few 51 plates and old prefix style reg too, which seem to be the ones the enthusiastic staff are picking to photo and as such are what I’ve seems.

regardless it doesn’t solve the fuelling mystery of deckers, or will cornwall only see more singles from Plymouth for the time being?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

quite a few 51 plates and old prefix style reg too, which seem to be the ones the enthusiastic staff are picking to photo and as such are what I’ve seems.

regardless it doesn’t solve the fuelling mystery of deckers, or will cornwall only see more singles from Plymouth for the time being?

Think you're mistaken. There are some 52 plates from East Yorkshire and some 54 plate Eclipses but in the main, it is 57/58 of the ones on loan. Have a look at Graham Richardson's flickr page.

As for the fuel cards, I would suggest that is probably tosh. Think they are feeding you a line. You think that commercial fleet fuel cards are not going to cover HGV filling facilities??

 

[richw]

Think you're mistaken. There are some 52 plates from East Yorkshire and some 54 plate Eclipses but in the main, it is 57/58 of the ones on loan. Have a look at Graham Richardson's flickr page.

As for the fuel cards, I would suggest that is probably tosh. Think they are feeding you a line. You think that commercial fleet fuel cards are not going to cover HGV filling facilities??

They’ve got a supermarket card! I’ve seen the cards!
They’ve got Some pl51*** theyd previously disposed of returned on loan, a few x***egk have been recommissioned

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They’ve got a supermarket card! I’ve seen the cards!
They’ve got Some pl51*** theyd previously disposed of returned on loan, a few x***egk have been recommissioned

Supermarket cards, depending on the type, aren’t just limited to supermarkets. Bunkering schemes are much more complex.

Recommissioning some reserve vehicles are not loan vehicles and there's only three of them X/Y reg vintage, plus some 02 plates. Not aware of PL51s returning.

However, I'm not really getting your point - they have a gap in the contract award and getting the new vehicles in. That would have been the same for any operator. First would have had to do the same.

Seem to recall when First Kernow had a delay with their 18 plate e400s and drafted in V reg B7TLs that were sent down from Ensign and were pushed out on major routes like 21 and the 93.

 

[fgwrich]

The only PL51 that seems to have returned is PL51LGO which is understood to be used as a driver training vehicle rather than a service vehicle or anything to do with the TFC operation.

incoming Plymouth Citybus

PL51LGO is back! For training use only I believe

www.flickr.com

Out of interest, I see the former PCB FLASH B7RLEs have all moved off to Go North West - does anyone know why they didn't stay in the South West, as they were rather nice vehicles for Plymouth!

 

[devonexpress]

I hate to sound negative but I don't think the entire "Transport for Cornwall" project will last, I would predict it might go on for 6 years, and begin to run out of cash, Cornwall Council will go back to the government asking for more, and won't get any. The project will shut down but Go Cornwall will continue to operate most of the services for the remaining two years. After that they will scale back to their old North Cornwall ops and First will be the dominant operator in Cornwall again.

 

[richw]

I hate to sound negative but I don't think the entire "Transport for Cornwall" project will last, I would predict it might go on for 6 years, and begin to run out of cash, Cornwall Council will go back to the government asking for more, and won't get any. The project will shut down but Go Cornwall will continue to operate most of the services for the remaining two years. After that they will scale back to their old North Cornwall ops and First will be the dominant operator in Cornwall again.

There is a 4 year break clause to consider.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I hate to sound negative but I don't think the entire "Transport for Cornwall" project will last, I would predict it might go on for 6 years, and begin to run out of cash, Cornwall Council will go back to the government asking for more, and won't get any. The project will shut down but Go Cornwall will continue to operate most of the services for the remaining two years. After that they will scale back to their old North Cornwall ops and First will be the dominant operator in Cornwall again.

Ok - let's look at things logically.

The funding package will be for the duration of the package. I mean, wacky as Cornwall Council might be, they aren't able to award a contract for 8 years without funding. Now it depends on how the contract and revenue risk sits. I would suspect that it sits with the Council not PCB - after all, there are a load of new services that have no pre-existing passenger data so you can't expect an operator to guess what they may take. Therefore, assuming that PCB have done their sums (and they were more expensive than First, remember) then they probably won't have any pressure to walk away. If a break clause is exercised at the half way point, I would find it difficult to believe that they haven't protected themselves, legally and commercially. Remember that PCB will have had to go to the Go Ahead board and get this proposal with the expenditure and contract signed off, as indeed First will have done.

That's my honest, non partisan view.

Now, do I think the TfC package is sensible and balanced? Of course not, and it feels like there will be a frittering away of money on lots of modern vehicles carrying fresh air, and that's before Covid. Feels like a load of rather arbitrary decisions made on where to run buses such as Lostwithiel to St Austell (tried before), or Tregony to St Austell, before my personal fave of the Launceston to Bodmin service serving one village and three cottages. I've seen too many instances of councils getting a slug of cash and simply splurging it on all sorts of personal hobby horses or, seemingly, looking a map, seeing a gap and thinking a bus should go there without ascertaining the actual need.

FWIW, I feel it would have made more sense to emulate the type of Kickstart schemes in the mid 2000s where funding was made available for particular routes that the operators proposed. They would need to show a plan to develop the route and would also have needed to put some "skin in the game" - IIRC, Culm Valley Connect in Devon was an example. Get the operator on board and invest so they have a vested interest in success. The council can support in terms of funding and infrastructure.

 

[devonexpress]

Ok - let's look at things logically.

The funding package will be for the duration of the package. I mean, wacky as Cornwall Council might be, they aren't able to award a contract for 8 years without funding. Now it depends on how the contract and revenue risk sits. I would suspect that it sits with the Council not PCB - after all, there are a load of new services that have no pre-existing passenger data so you can't expect an operator to guess what they may take. Therefore, assuming that PCB have done their sums (and they were more expensive than First, remember) then they probably won't have any pressure to walk away. If a break clause is exercised at the half way point, I would find it difficult to believe that they haven't protected themselves, legally and commercially. Remember that PCB will have had to go to the Go Ahead board and get this proposal with the expenditure and contract signed off, as indeed First will have done.

That's my honest, non partisan view.

Now, do I think the TfC package is sensible and balanced? Of course not, and it feels like there will be a frittering away of money on lots of modern vehicles carrying fresh air, and that's before Covid. Feels like a load of rather arbitrary decisions made on where to run buses such as Lostwithiel to St Austell (tried before), or Tregony to St Austell, before my personal fave of the Launceston to Bodmin service serving one village and three cottages. I've seen too many instances of councils getting a slug of cash and simply splurging it on all sorts of personal hobby horses or, seemingly, looking a map, seeing a gap and thinking a bus should go there without ascertaining the actual need.

FWIW, I feel it would have made more sense to emulate the type of Kickstart schemes in the mid 2000s where funding was made available for particular routes that the operators proposed. They would need to show a plan to develop the route and would also have needed to put some "skin in the game" - IIRC, Culm Valley Connect in Devon was an example. Get the operator on board and invest so they have a vested interest in success. The council can support in terms of funding and infrastructure.

Thank you for your reply, and clearing some things up for me, I agree a kickstart scheme would have been much better, I just cannot see the current TFC project making any money, it feels as if it's another 'look what we can do' project trying to copy what Wales & Scotland have achieved. And personally I still don't understand why Cornwall Council, who up until this worked very well with First Group who even rebranded their operations to suit CC, decided to throw that all away.

 

[carlberry]

Thank you for your reply, and clearing some things up for me, I agree a kickstart scheme would have been much better, I just cannot see the current TFC project making any money, it feels as if it's another 'look what we can do' project trying to copy what Wales & Scotland have achieved. And personally I still don't understand why Cornwall Council, who up until this worked very well with First Group who even rebranded their operations to suit CC, decided to throw that all away.

I doubt that Cornwall council expected the TFC project to make money and (as long as the funding package is available as TFW says) and Covid has now provided a perfect excuse to provide wriggle room for it to carry on without having to achieve any of it's previous aims.
I'm not aware of what you're referring to in Wales and Scotland. Powys did have a similar scheme many years ago and few people look at the results of that positively!

From what other people have said I dint think that the relationship between the council and First was all a bed of roses and I doubt that the rebranding was to suit the CC. The same management team rebranded it's other area as 'Buses for Somerset' and Somerset couldn't give two hoots for buses!

 

[devonexpress]

I doubt that Cornwall council expected the TFC project to make money and (as long as the funding package is available as TFW says) and Covid has now provided a perfect excuse to provide wriggle room for it to carry on without having to achieve any of it's previous aims.
I'm not aware of what you're referring to in Wales and Scotland. Powys did have a similar scheme many years ago and few people look at the results of that positively!

From what other people have said I dint think that the relationship between the council and First was all a bed of roses and I doubt that the rebranding was to suit the CC. The same management team rebranded it's other area as 'Buses for Somerset' and Somerset couldn't give two hoots for buses!

Transport for Wales Trains, Scotrail ring a bell? Cornwall always try to copy. Originally First rebranded the ops as First Kernow, then you may remember 33660 carried busKernow, due to rumors Cornwall wanted a franchise bus system, this was later changed to Cornwall by Kernow as a way of First showing it's commitment to being a locally branded ops.

 

[carlberry]

Transport for Wales Trains, Scotrail ring a bell? Cornwall always try to copy. Originally First rebranded the ops as First Kernow, then you may remember 33660 carried busKernow, due to rumors Cornwall wanted a franchise bus system, this was later changed to Cornwall by Kernow as a way of First showing it's commitment to being a locally branded ops.

Neither Transport for Wales Trains nor Scotrail involved contracted bus services as far as I remember? Scotrail (from memory) achieve some impressive growth on some routes in the 1980s however I'm not aware of what Transport for Wales Trains have achieved other than keeping paint manufacturers in a job.
Bus Gwynedd might be a better example which did involve contracted bus services and county council specified liveries however there was little evidence that it expanded the use of buses.

Without knowing the actual discussions that took place at the time the example of busKernow/Cornwall by Kernow can be seen as much as a reaction against working with the council as an example of doing something because the council wanted it done. Again, purely speculation on my part based on what people have said.

 

[Yarp1]

I cant help but wonder what would have happened to pcb and cc if covid hadn't come along. I think it would have been a whole different story. Lack of drivers and lack of buses and no back up support. I personally think it would have been a shambles and heads would have rolled and passengers would have lost out.
Covid has been a blessing for them and will be interesting to see what happens in next couple of weeks

 

[richw]

Tregony to St Austell, before my personal fave of the Launceston to Bodmin

Western greyhound did Tregony-St Austell as well at St Austell to Lostwithiel. Both were a failure 10 years ago.
Firsts Truro to Tregony Only carried a handful at best.

And personally I still don't understand why Cornwall Council, who up until this worked very well with First Group

No they didnt

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you for your reply, and clearing some things up for me, I agree a kickstart scheme would have been much better, I just cannot see the current TFC project making any money, it feels as if it's another 'look what we can do' project trying to copy what Wales & Scotland have achieved. And personally I still don't understand why Cornwall Council, who up until this worked very well with First Group who even rebranded their operations to suit CC, decided to throw that all away.

@richw has stated that the relationship between CC and First was not as good as had been mooted. The Ride Cornwall issue was probably symptomatic of that.

CC seem to have got blinded by the desire to emulate Transport for London with an all pervading brand, much like TfGM in Manchester. The idea is that it provides a unified identifiable brand that is recognisable and a coordinated network. Of course, that goes against the FK approach of branding certain routes. Whilst I appreciate the network view, I always feel that this can be done whilst maintaining a focus on marketing individual routes which is what FK have been successful in doing.

Western greyhound did Tregony-St Austell as well at St Austell to Lostwithiel. Both were a failure 10 years ago.
Firsts Truro to Tregony Only carried a handful at best.

I could remember the Lostwithiel one but not the Tregony run.

My original view still stands though. They are going to spend £100k a year sending a bus across Bodmin Moor to carry virtually no-one. However, think what that £100k could do elsewhere.... for instance, could they invest is a route like the 21 (for sake of argument) to improve it and make it more sustainable? How many more people would that benefit?

 

[richw]

@richw has stated that the relationship between CC and First was not as good as had been mooted. The Ride Cornwall issue was probably symptomatic of that.

CC seem to have got blinded by the desire to emulate Transport for London with an all pervading brand, much like TfGM in Manchester. The idea is that it provides a unified identifiable brand that is recognisable and a coordinated network. Of course, that goes against the FK approach of branding certain routes. Whilst I appreciate the network view, I always feel that this can be done whilst maintaining a focus on marketing individual routes which is what FK have been successful in doing.



I could remember the Lostwithiel one but not the Tregony run.

My original view still stands though. They are going to spend £100k a year sending a bus across Bodmin Moor to carry virtually no-one. However, think what that £100k could do elsewhere.... for instance, could they invest is a route like the 21 (for sake of argument) to improve it and make it more sustainable? How many more people would that benefit?

Completely agree. Anyone who wants the rail connection from launceston will go via the more frequent 12 to Plymouth, where there is more frequent trains to more destinations not double back via Bodmin unless they are going west.

 

[devonexpress]

@richw has stated that the relationship between CC and First was not as good as had been mooted. The Ride Cornwall issue was probably symptomatic of that.

CC seem to have got blinded by the desire to emulate Transport for London with an all pervading brand, much like TfGM in Manchester. The idea is that it provides a unified identifiable brand that is recognisable and a coordinated network. Of course, that goes against the FK approach of branding certain routes. Whilst I appreciate the network view, I always feel that this can be done whilst maintaining a focus on marketing individual routes which is what FK have been successful in doing.



I could remember the Lostwithiel one but not the Tregony run.

My original view still stands though. They are going to spend £100k a year sending a bus across Bodmin Moor to carry virtually no-one. However, think what that £100k could do elsewhere.... for instance, could they invest is a route like the 21 (for sake of argument) to improve it and make it more sustainable? How many more people would that benefit?

Thanks for clearing that up, it's so sad to see tax payers money going on a vanity project by a council with a history of wasting money, I wish the government would come down harder on councils like this.

 

[Man of Kent]

Thanks for clearing that up, it's so sad to see tax payers money going on a vanity project by a council with a history of wasting money, I wish the government would come down harder on councils like this.

Most of the funding has come from the devolution deal that CC did with central government. In that sense, it has government's blessing.
But I would be careful of what you wish for - government dictating what councils should spend in detail will never adequately reflect local circumstances, and besides which, it would show up how inefficient central government is. Almost all of the cutback in public spending has been achieved by local councils, rather than any great effort by the civil service.

 

[MotCO]

Is Cornwall still seeking Devolution, i.e. devolved status for the County Council? Would this help explain why the CC is

blinded by the desire to emulate Transport for London with an all pervading brand, much like TfGM in Manchester.

Edit: Probably answered by the previous post posted whilst I was drafting mine.

 

[devonexpress]

Most of the funding has come from the devolution deal that CC did with central government. In that sense, it has government's blessing.
But I would be careful of what you wish for - government dictating what councils should spend in detail will never adequately reflect local circumstances, and besides which, it would show up how inefficient central government is. Almost all of the cutback in public spending has been achieved by local councils, rather than any great effort by the civil service.

Yes, but at the same time, think how much the 3 million or so CC got could of gone on real improvements, instead they've spent a fortune on a silly brand, loads of new buses for routes that won't pay for their upkeep and created a few new routes. Meanwhile making it more complicated for the travelling public to travel around Cornwall easily as you now need two different tickets instead of one bar TravelCornwall.

 

[Lizard1324]

Are all of the TFC buses owned by go ahead or partly funded by the council, and if the extension doesn't work and cc go back to favour kernow will they get there 18 plate e200mmc back and any partly funded buses from TFC if any?

 

[carlberry]

Are all of the TFC buses owned by go ahead or partly funded by the council, and if the extension doesn't work and cc go back to favour kernow will they get there 18 plate e200mmc back and any partly funded buses from TFC if any?

It would have been covered in the contract. I suspect they're all Go Ahead owned/leased, other than the 16 they got back from First. The 'extension' is only a break point at 4 years the assumption is that it's for the full 8 years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of the funding has come from the devolution deal that CC did with central government. In that sense, it has government's blessing.
But I would be careful of what you wish for - government dictating what councils should spend in detail will never adequately reflect local circumstances, and besides which, it would show up how inefficient central government is. Almost all of the cutback in public spending has been achieved by local councils, rather than any great effort by the civil service.

Quite so. Criticising Cornwall Council doesn't mean that central government are any better (and indeed, are usually much worse). The tearing up of Kickstart (it was a Labour idea and so naturally had to go) meant Better Bus Areas - a lot of trumpeting, a bit of funding, not much change really. And yes, all central government did was simply cut the funding to local authorities - they claimed it was to further local decision making (aka you can decide what you have to cut and get all the bad press).

Yes, but at the same time, think how much the 3 million or so CC got could of gone on real improvements, instead they've spent a fortune on a silly brand, loads of new buses for routes that won't pay for their upkeep and created a few new routes. Meanwhile making it more complicated for the travelling public to travel around Cornwall easily as you now need two different tickets instead of one bar TravelCornwall.

As I said before, we've been here before. When the Rural Bus Challenge funding came out in the early 2000s, councils were suddenly spending money on new links that had no real basis or massively improved Sunday services etc.

I'm all for innovation and I can see the rationale for Newquay to Redruth - that might have made more sense as an hourly service? Or how about something more revolutionary like the reintroduction of high frequency minibus services in Truro (with Mellor Stratas?)

Are all of the TFC buses owned by go ahead or partly funded by the council, and if the extension doesn't work and cc go back to favour kernow will they get there 18 plate e200mmc back and any partly funded buses from TFC if any?

Think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself. First of all, there's many tales of woe being mentioned on this thread (no small bus for Mousehole, no operators licenses for new sites, fuel cards that won't work, full length singles for Cornwall); these have proved to be incorrect in the main and to be honest, you'd be thinking that Go Ahead were some total chancers not a highly respected and professional operator. The lower activity may have been a blessing for a big new start up but we will never know how it would have gone. Therefore, I don't see what justification there would be to assume that there would be some move back to First Kernow.

The 16 e200mmc are indeed TfC owned. Not certain if the other fleet is as, if that was the case, they could've been ordered in advance of the final contract award. The e200mmc were stock builds AFAIK and the deckers are still outstanding.

 

[Yarp1]

Quite so. Criticising Cornwall Council doesn't mean that central government are any better (and indeed, are usually much worse). The tearing up of Kickstart (it was a Labour idea and so naturally had to go) meant Better Bus Areas - a lot of trumpeting, a bit of funding, not much change really. And yes, all central government did was simply cut the funding to local authorities - they claimed it was to further local decision making (aka you can decide what you have to cut and get all the bad press).



As I said before, we've been here before. When the Rural Bus Challenge funding came out in the early 2000s, councils were suddenly spending money on new links that had no real basis or massively improved Sunday services etc.

I'm all for innovation and I can see the rationale for Newquay to Redruth - that might have made more sense as an hourly service? Or how about something more revolutionary like the reintroduction of high frequency minibus services in Truro (with Mellor Stratas?)



Think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself. First of all, there's many tales of woe being mentioned on this thread (no small bus for Mousehole, no operators licenses for new sites, fuel cards that won't work, full length singles for Cornwall); these have proved to be incorrect in the main and to be honest, you'd be thinking that Go Ahead were some total chancers not a highly respected and professional operator. The lower activity may have been a blessing for a big new start up but we will never know how it would have gone. Therefore, I don't see what justification there would be to assume that there would be some move back to First Kernow.

The 16 e200mmc are indeed TfC owned. Not certain if the other fleet is as, if that was the case, they could've been ordered in advance of the final contract award. The e200mmc were stock builds AFAIK and the deckers are still outstanding.

I can understand the tales of woe that you mentioned but being here in the middle of it all that is how it seems. For a company that is supposedly highly respected and are not chancers it doesn't seem like it.
From where I am it ALMOST seems that they have taken a chance and ALMOST seemed to have expected to come into cornwall expecting everything to be done ready for them. They have OTS in falmouth and hopleys near truro to run their own services but the ones in around newquay truro and st austall they dont have anybody except themselves and lot of help from council/cormac.at the moment they dont seem to have thought about the small issues and have ploughed in and hoped for the best which is why i personally dont have much respect or hold them in high regard at the moment.
From here in the middle of it all it feels like it is one big big mash up and passengers in Cornwall are going to be confused and disheartened with local bus network.
5 years ago FK were crap but over last 5 years it got better but now it's on knife edge as which way Cornwall bus network goes

 

[devonexpress]

I can understand the tales of woe that you mentioned but being here in the middle of it all that is how it seems. For a company that is supposedly highly respected and are not chancers it doesn't seem like it.
From where I am it ALMOST seems that they have taken a chance and ALMOST seemed to have expected to come into cornwall expecting everything to be done ready for them. They have OTS in falmouth and hopleys near truro to run their own services but the ones in around newquay truro and st austall they dont have anybody except themselves and lot of help from council/cormac.at the moment they dont seem to have thought about the small issues and have ploughed in and hoped for the best which is why i personally dont have much respect or hold them in high regard at the moment.
From here in the middle of it all it feels like it is one big big mash up and passengers in Cornwall are going to be confused and disheartened with local bus network.
5 years ago FK were crap but over last 5 years it got better but now it's on knife edge as which way Cornwall bus network goes

I still think in 6 years the TFC network will collapse, FK will carry on, taking over it again like they did when Western Greyhound went. I personally think the council are stupid when for the last 10 years they've been working to get First to invest as much as it has in the last 3 years in Cornwall, only to give up and go to Go Ahead.