GNER / GNWR website online

[EWS 58038]

Alliance railway holding has just put their website online...

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/

Personally I think some services would be great, but other will be useless IMO.

 

[Aictos]

Well I have to agree with you on that, I've looked on the site and found a few services which in my view are decent proposals:

4 daily services (in opposite hour to Carlisle):

London Euston - Blackpool North

Euston
Kings Langley Parkway
Nuneaton
Tamworth
Crewe
Winsford Parkway
Newton-le-Willows Parkway
Preston
Kirkham & Wesham
Blackpool North

Virgin used to run a similar service but seeing as I doubt they will reintroduce any service, this really ought to get the go ahead.

2 Hourly service (in opposite hour to Leeds):

London Euston - Bradford Interchange

Euston
Kings Langley Parkway
Nuneaton
Tamworth
Crewe
Winsford Parkway
Newton-le-Willows Parkway
Eccles Parkway
Manchester Victoria
Rochdale
Hebden Bridge
Halifax
Bradford Interchange

Leeds already has a pretty good service to London so by using Bradford means more services to London for locals and makes Bradford into a hub like Leeds, Doncaster, Wakefield is etc...

2 hourly services (in opposite hour to Huddersfield):

London King's Cross - Skipton

Kings Cross
Micklefield Parkway
Leeds
Shipley
Keighley
Skipton

East Coast only has the one return trip a day, this gives them a more direct and regular service to London without having to change at Leeds which takes some of the pressure off Leeds.

2 hourly Pennine service (in opposite hour to London Euston - Bradford):

Hull - Liverpool

Hull
Brough
Howden
Selby
Micklefield Parkway
Leeds
Bradford Interchange
Halifax
Hebden Bridge
Rochdale
Manchester Victoria
Eccles Parkway
Newton-le-Willows Parkway
St Helens
Liverpool Lime Street

Now this would help the existing TPE/Northern services by offering extra capacity plus be a useful route.

4 daily services:

London King's Cross - Cleethorpes

Kings Cross
Doncaster
Thorne South Parkway
Scunthorpe
Habrough
Grimsby Town
Cleethorpes

BR used to run direct to London years ago so this service like the Blackpool proposal should go ahead.

 

[theblackwatch]

Given who is involved, can we expect no advance fares?

Head of Systems, Chris Brandon, has joined the Company from Grand Central where he started in 2007. With a strong background in IT Chris also has extensive knowledge of the commercial requirements of new rail services, particularly fares implementation. Chris’s role is to manage all business systems and to ensure Alliance captures the economic value of services to the communities it will serve, whilst ensuring compliance with all aspects of licensing, access and ticketing.

 

[EWS 58038]

As long as the Welwyn bottleneck exists I wonder where they think the capacity is.

If some smart blokes decide to double the track between Welwyn and Woolmer Green... then you will gain an extra 30% on ECML capacity... but for as long as this is not the case I doubt any more services can be added.

And don't count on any influence from Modern Railways guru "Captain Deltic" on this one... I am sure he won't like his view to be spoiled by a new bridge over the valley.

 

[tbtc]

Looks like the kind of routes I used to think up when I was ten

 

[Welshman]

Certainly some exciting possibilities there, and I wish the company every success and hope they all go ahead. But I do wonder about Bradford-Euston via Manchester Vic though. Would the time penalty really be attractive to Bradford passengers when they will be able to go to Leeds in 20 minutes and on to Kings Cross in 2 hours 10 minutes with Eureka! It would be a useful service from Halifax and the Calder Valley though, not only to London but to Mid Wales and the Midlands, by changing at Crewe or Tamworth.

 

[Zoe]

I can see London Midland objecting to calls at Nuneaton and Tamworth as they would lose revenue.

 

[mrcheek]

Nice ideas, and they seem like a very professional organisation.
But is there actually any spare capacity on either ECML or WCML?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I like the fact they want to upgrade certain stations (even if they do add the unnecessary 'parkway' bit to the name) and in some cases it doubles the service provide to stations that are local to each other which can only be a winning idea, beneficial to the TOCs aswell as GNER/GNWR.

 

[37401]

Looks like the kind of routes I used to think up when I was ten

Same for me , I still dream of running Hereford-Birmingham-Paddington with 47s 57s and most importanly 50s

Blackpool-Paddington is one I used to dream of when I was a bit littler
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin used to run a similar service but seeing as I doubt they will reintroduce any service, this really ought to get the go ahead.

They wont think its a good idea untill GNWR are filling up well on those trains, just like Wrexham

 

[asylumxl]

Same for me

Yesterday then?

 

[37401]

Yesterday then?

heheh yeah, I have a 1991 BR network map on my wall and while bored last night I proposed a open access service on the MML with class 56s, London St Pancras - Glasgow providing all those along the MML with a direct route

 

[Lampshade]

I can see London Midland objecting to calls at Nuneaton and Tamworth as they would lose revenue.

I'd be inclined to agree. However, north of Crewe we have no/very few direct services to the Trent Valley. It'd be a better idea to have them pick up only northbound and set down only southbound.

EDIT: You'd have thought they'd have some imagination as to what London terminal they use, Kings Cross will be at capacity very soon.

 

[Harry Douthwaite]

Nice ideas, and they seem like a very professional organisation.
But is there actually any spare capacity on either ECML or WCML?

Last year, I spent some time at both Stevenage and Watford Junction, and I can safely say that at Stevenage, there was at least a 15 minute gap in-between intercity trains there. At Watford, maybe 10-12 minutes.
As has already been stated, all I can see that could possibly cause a train-jam is the Welwyn Bottleneck, or the fact that the Hertford Loop currently has no passing loop stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nice ideas, and they seem like a very professional organisation.
But is there actually any spare capacity on either ECML or WCML?

Not on the ECML unless 125 mph stock is obtained, which was why I posted a thread yesterday about the ORR's response to the proposals from Alliance Rail (amongst others)...

 

[142094]

Micklefield Parkway

Must be a new station this, everytime I've been it is plain old Micklefield. Not much of a market I would have thought for Micklefield - London along with a few of the other stations mentioned, easier to go to somewhere like York/Donny/Leeds and go from there.

 

[Any Permitted]

Argh. Their logo is so pretty and the website is so well designed it's just those maps. :cry:

I might re-design them and email them to see if they want to use them.

 

[Mike Redding]

If they can get from West Cumbria to London via the outskirts of Manchester in less than 4 1/2 hours, then they may have a good idea, Otherwise it would just be quicker to go up to Carlisle and get the Pendolino down.

 

[Donny Dave]

Some very good proposals there, but I doubt very much that the London - Huddersfield via Sheffield will get the go ahead.

There is already 20 tph over Nunnery Main Line Jn (plus freight). It's already a bottle neck, so adding another 2 movements every hour will lead to some services being delayed badly.

Also, with the service having to reverse at Sheffield, it will be limited to a choice of platforms (no east bound departures possible from P6 or P8), the service will be restricted to a small window (xx27 to xx37) to fit inbetween the half hourly XC service, and be in front of the stoppers on the Sheffield - Worksop/Retford route.

 

[Bonemaster]

A most inspired list of routes, aiming to tap into many markets and offer customers more choice.

Crewe, Tamworth and Nuneaton forgotten as Intercity stations by Virgin, with much potential for business travel into the capital, I doubt there will be much competition with London Midland, as London Midland will continue to market these as cheap slow trains, with limited use for the time conscious consumer, those who are driven by price will not move away, and from the wording on there website they do not appear to be aiming at this market at all.

Aiming at stations with good access to motorways, is an area where the franchised operators often seem to miss, with services focused on point to point travel, which for many people who live in the suburbs of major cities who find it easier to get to where they want to go currently by road due to having to get into the major cities, and park at great expense.

The non change market hit as well, its all very well saying people wont use the service because someone can change at x,y and z, if the customer doesn't want to do this they would prefer a slightly longer journey where they dont have to get off drag luggage across platforms, stand in the cold or wet, and try to find a seat multiple times and often when you factor in change times, the time difference would be reduced. I would point at the example of WSMR who having introduced a direct service which may not necessarily be quicker or with marginal difference to the franchised operators, have developed the market with people who previously did not travel by rail.

Routing also seems to be extremely clever also taking the example of the Bradford - Euston services tapping into the transpennine market, hitting the key motorways in the North West, opening up the entire Greater Manchester and Merseyside Markets, offering options both transpennine and to the capital, after all most people on a service do not board at the point of origin and disembark at the destination.

Bringing regular services to the capital from the likes of Huddersfield, Halifax, Rochdale, Blackpool, Barrow, Whitehaven and Grimsby to name a few all with sizable populations but no connection to the capital will surely generate custom from other modes of transport and develop the areas. The Huddersfield - Kings Cross service is one which hits no end of medium sized towns with no direct connection to the capital, if only franchised operators were empowered to tap into these markets the railways may serve more people and some of the benefits of having it in the private sector realized, and I would think that many of the timetabling bottlenecks would disappear

 

[Lampshade]

Must be a new station this, everytime I've been it is plain old Micklefield. Not much of a market I would have thought for Micklefield - London along with a few of the other stations mentioned, easier to go to somewhere like York/Donny/Leeds and go from there.

I think they've just added 'Parkway' to a load of stations, Guide Bridge Parkway??? :?

 

[tbtc]

A most inspired list of routes, aiming to tap into many markets and offer customers more choice.

Crewe, Tamworth and Nuneaton forgotten as Intercity stations by Virgin, with much potential for business travel into the capital,

Seriously?

Crewe, with two Virgin services to London each hour (one from Manchester, one from Chester) has been forgotten about?

How many more services to London each hour would it need in your opinion?

I don't remember Tamworth ever having anything like a clockface WCML service in the old days either.

 

[Pumbaa]

Nice ideas, and they seem like a very professional organisation.
But is there actually any spare capacity on either ECML or WCML?

WCML south is pretty much at capacity. You can squeeze an extra 2 EPS services in at a push (xx33; already written in but not used, and one at xx57 which would have to call somewhere south of Rugby or have to be slower to avoid catching up the LM Crewe xx46 departure. Going up is the same story, even more stretched as recovery time is factored. LM fasts are shafted to the slows until Ledburn, and can go slow as far as Bourne End in some hours (the LB from 4 - 6 spring to mind). I don't know the ECML as well.

Last year, I spent some time at both Stevenage and Watford Junction, and I can safely say that at Stevenage, there was at least a 15 minute gap in-between intercity trains there. At Watford, maybe 10-12 minutes.

Must be joking - coming in, the timetable has them stacking up through Rugby in three separate tranches. You get the odd 10 min gap between the end of one tranche, but thats quickly followed by three trains 3 mins apart. The worst one to mind is the EBW (calling at MK), followed by the Liverpool, followed by the Manchester via Crewe. The EBW only needs to lose 3 mins before MK to cause the following two services to stack up, but then again I suppose thats why we have recovery time!

 

[142094]

I think they've just added 'Parkway' to a load of stations, Guide Bridge Parkway??? :?

Didn't look at the rest of the list, just saw Micklefield Parkway and thought it to be strange. Parkway implies having a good sized car park, whereas Micklefield has less than 50ish spaces on one side and a handful on the Leeds bound platform.

 

[Bonemaster]

Seriously?

Crewe, with two Virgin services to London each hour (one from Manchester, one from Chester) has been forgotten about?

How many more services to London each hour would it need in your opinion?

Yes seriously, but perhaps Crewe is not the best example of the three

Its not just about the station catchment who live around the station it is about the passenger flow between operators, and through connections. Its far to easy to say place name x population y services must therefore be z.

I don't remember Tamworth ever having anything like a clockface WCML service in the old days either.

Where did I say that, I never mentioned clockface once!!!!

I do not get the obsession with clockface timetables in todays railway environment, other than they are easy to plan, and easy for customers to understand but do not move passengers when they need to be moved as was the case with Tamworth, hence along with Nuneaton abandoned as an Intercity destination

 

[tbtc]

Yes seriously

So you think Virgin have forgotten about Crewe, despite it having two fast trains to London each hour?

Where did I say that, I never mentioned clockface once!!!!

I do not get the obsession with clockface timetables in todays railway environment, other than they are easy to plan, and easy for customers to understand but do not move passengers when they need to be moved as was the case with Tamworth, hence along with Nuneaton abandoned as an Intercity destination

Okay, to put it another way, did Tamworth have a more regular service under British Rail?

As I understand it Nuneaton had a stop on many Liverpool services, but the Trent Valley stations are now provided by London Midland's hourly service (or changing at Coventry)

 

[Chester025]

I'll stop laughing at 'Winsford Parkway' in a minute!

 

[87015]

Okay, to put it another way, did Tamworth have a more regular service under British Rail?

As I understand it Nuneaton had a stop on many Liverpool services, but the Trent Valley stations are now provided by London Midland's hourly service (or changing at Coventry)

Tamworth had IC a train every two hours, Nuneaton hourly, both had addt'l peak trains and the Trent Valley locals were, if irregular, operating at about two hourly frequencies until the mid-late 90s but were tailored around local demand rather than clockface operational convenience.

 

[Bonemaster]

Okay, to put it another way, did Tamworth have a more regular service under British Rail?

In Intercity operator terms yes, express services to serve the capital during the principle hours that people want to travel.

Having a more frequent slower stopping service is no substitute for many especially the business travel markets.

It does not necessarily follow that a more frequent clock face service will meet the needs of rail service users and the communities and businesses that they serve

As I understand it Nuneaton had a stop on many Liverpool services, but the Trent Valley stations are now provided by London Midland's hourly service (or changing at Coventry)

That is correct, however for a time critical traveler, which many people are the principle market for these is the leisure market who are interested in cheap tickets and semi fast trains to the capital, which are not suitable for the commuter market, there was a strong campaign in the area against the withdrawal of the Virgin service, and the virtual removal of Nuneaton from the Intercity map. I wont regurgitate all the arguments as a quick google will locate them, but surfice to say that local opinion was that having a fast direct service was superior and more useful.

People want a direct service where possible and almost always try to avoid changing and having to run via Coventry to catch a Virgin service can make the railway prohibitively difficult to use for many markets.

If you operate a service that people want and need they will use it, if you take away a service people want and need they will shout and scream as they did at these locations, and up walks another operator to give these customers, and local areas, what they, and there elected representatives campaigned for

 

[Lampshade]

I'll stop laughing at 'Winsford Parkway' in a minute!

I can't get over 'Guide Bridge Parkway', the 'car park' is nothing but the concreted over remains of platforms 3 and 4