GN Class 717

[APUK002]

Yes, but I understand some drivers will only use it for a genuine emergency.. not because they couldn't set a journey and allow the train to know to lock out the doors at certain stations automatically.

Another consideration is that if you don't have the journey set up correctly, passengers won't see the destination of the train, stopping patterns or be warned inside that (for example) the last four coaches will not open at the next station, leading to a good chance of someone using the passcom.

That’s true,yes

 

[jon0844]

I should add that a driver may decide not to run the train in such a situation. Control will say otherwise. The signaller meanwhile will be saying 'DO SOMETHING! You're blocking the platform' and ultimately it comes down to the driver to decide, as s/he is ultimately in charge.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Did I say they were not trying their best? No I didn’t. I just stated their best isn’t good enough. Take a chill pill.

You're filling the informative thread with unproductive whinging about the failure rate of a train that isn't in service yet. It's grating.

 

[samuelmorris]

Don’t see the relevance of you first part of this post. Unless it is to prove that new things don’t work out the box first time. But no idea what you are basing the 717s will be alright on?

It's to demonstrate that stock with terrible reliability ratings when first introduced isn't necessarily inherently unreliable, once the bugs are worked out. Admittedly though the 458 example says nothing about how long it'll take to do that, given it took several years to get them to perform acceptable.

Metro stock like 717s is unlikely to push 6-figure numbers given the longer inter-station distances the 350s and 450s achieve, but I think it's reasonable to expect 50,000+ after a couple of years in full service, say mid to late 2021. If they're still lagging behind by then, that's the point at which it's safe to criticise.

 

[Failed Unit]

You're filling the informative thread with unproductive whinging about the failure rate of a train that isn't in service yet. It's grating.

Based on the class 700. You don’t have to read it. I am just stating a fact based on all other new train introductions things will get worse before they get better. Which considering how us that use the line have suffered in the past year, isn’t something to look forward to.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's to demonstrate that stock with terrible reliability ratings when first introduced isn't necessarily inherently unreliable, once the bugs are worked out. Admittedly though the 458 example says nothing about how long it'll take to do that, given it took several years to get them to perform acceptable.

Metro stock like 717s is unlikely to push 6-figure numbers given the longer inter-station distances the 350s and 450s achieve, but I think it's reasonable to expect 50,000+ after a couple of years in full service, say mid to late 2021. If they're still lagging behind by then, that's the point at which it's safe to criticise.

Don’t disagree. I expect it to be decent reliable train by 2020. Just pointing out things will get worse before they get better. The 717s will start out less reliable than the 313s they replace if the 700 experiences are repeated.

 

[samuelmorris]

Don’t disagree. I expect it to be decent reliable train by 2020. Just pointing out things will get worse before they get better. The 717s will start out less reliable than the 313s they replace if the 700 experiences are repeated.

Even if the 700 experience isn't repeated, I'm not sure I can name a single example of a unit that wasn't identical to a previously introduced unit where it exceeded the reliability of what came before it, excluding replacement of failed prototypes. Later 387s may have done well but early Electrostars were problematic to say the least. Even the lauded Desiro UK units had plenty of issues when first introduced, that 21000 figure for the 450s that originally compared so favourably to the 458s was still below that achieved by slam door stock that was in some cases almost literally falling apart. New stock always takes time to find its feet, it's just a question of how bad things are at the beginning and how long it takes to go right. Experience with 700s will help to some degree but with a new route, a new place to change voltage and a new variation on the design with some fairly substantial differences, coupled with known shall we say, unsatisfactory performance from that TOC wherever change is concerned, nobody will be expecting a smooth introduction. If it does go well, frankly the 717 deserves high praise indeed.

 

[Aictos]

Don’t see the relevance of you first part of this post. Unless it is to prove that new things don’t work out the box first time. But no idea what you are basing the 717s will be alright on?

The 717s have different cabs, the 717s have different safety systems. I see no reason why they won’t fall down the bathtub like all new stock does. As for when it climbs back up we will see who is right. But 2020 is actually in my opinion fairly optimistic considering the slow progress the 700s are making.

The only different safety system that the Class 717s have compared to the Class 700s and even the Class 707s is the former has a tripcock system and the other two don't so the term should be a different safety system not different safety systems.

Other then that they use the same safety systems that the other two use.

 

[Failed Unit]

The only different safety system that the Class 717s have compared to the Class 700s and even the Class 707s is the former has a tripcock system and the other two don't so the term should be a different safety system not different safety systems.

Other then that they use the same safety systems that the other two use.

I know. Hence why I said into post they have different safety systems. The failure of the tripcock is the biggest reason why services get diverted into Kings Cross today.

 

[Aictos]

I know. Hence why I said into post they have a different safety system. The failure of the tripcock is why services get diverted into Kings Cross amongst other reasons.

Corrected for you!

 

[Failed Unit]

Corrected for you!

Have you added any value to my original post? Just like the post before when you agreed with what I said but just, but just needed to add the detail about the tipcock. Not understanding what the change is supposed to achieve? I don’t think anyone on this forum doesn’t know signal failures etc cause diversion to kings cross. These are absolutely nothing to do with the train. So could I ask as you seem to know better what is the number 1 cause of diversion to Kings Cross that is directly attributable to the train if it is not the trip cock? The 717s will of course have the additional hazard of needing a fully operational selective door operation to enter the NCL. But tripcock failure will probably still be the number 1 reason caused by the train itself.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't another major reason down to switching power? If the switch over to DC doesn't work then the train moves on under AC and returns to Finsbury Park.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes failure to switch voltage is the other one down to the train. But I understand this happens less than the trip-cock. Not sure how many 700s fail to switch voltage but I get the impression this is fairly good.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure it happens but can't think of a single incident I know about or have been caught up in (700 power switching).

Bringing down wires is another issue, but the spate of problems near Alaxandra Palace were not necessarily down to the 700s as I think a LNER train had problems too. Far more likely a result of recent OHLE work in the area.

 

[Aictos]

Isn't another major reason down to switching power? If the switch over to DC doesn't work then the train moves on under AC and returns to Finsbury Park.

Another reason that @Failed Unit has forgotten is headlight failure so that's three reasons why a Class 313 might be diverted to Kings Cross as well as a issue with the 3rd rail tripping out which is a 4th reason!

A 5th reason is if it fails the Trip Cock Detector at Finsbury Park so 5 good reasons why a service might be diverted and note I don't claim to be privy to knowing what the No1 reason is nor do I throw my toys out the pram like a two year old when faced with corrections.

As to @Failed Unit claiming I added nothing to the post if they looked carefully they will see I edited it to be more correct.

 

[Failed Unit]

Another reason that @Failed Unit has forgotten is headlight failure so that's three reasons why a Class 313 might be diverted to Kings Cross as well as a issue with the 3rd rail tripping out which is a 4th reason!

A 5th reason is if it fails the Trip Cock Detector at Finsbury Park so 5 good reasons why a service might be diverted and note I don't claim to be privy to knowing what the No1 reason is nor do I throw my toys out the pram like a two year old when faced with corrections.

As to @Failed Unit claiming I added nothing to the post if they looked carefully they will see I edited it to be more correct.

Really - I am talking about issue with the train. So you can’t correct it as my statement was not wrong. You are talking about general issue. So you have added no value. You are the one with the problem as you must have the last word. But you have not actually demonstrated anything I have said is not correct. I will leave you to have the last word as it makes you feel good. We know the performance of the route will decline when the 717s are introduced as it does will all new trains (irrespective of manufacturer).

I will just look forward to the improvements from 2020 after another bad year in 2019.

 

[BowesRanger]

Really - I am talking about issue with the train. You are talking about general issue. So you have added no value. You are the one with the problem as you must have the last word. But you have not actually demonstrated anything I have said is not correct. I will leave you to have the last word as it makes you feel good. We know the performance of the route will decline when the 717s are introduced as it does will all new trains (irrespective of manufacturer).

I will just look forward to the improvements from 2020 after another bad year in 2019.

Aren't you a little ray of sunshine

 

[TRAX]

We know the performance of the route will decline when the 717s are introduced as it does will all new trains (irrespective of manufacturer).

As it did when the 313s were introduced.
As it does when new trains are introduced, modern stuff as much as BREL stuff back in the day.

 

[Failed Unit]

As it did when the 313s were introduced.
As it does when new trains are introduced, modern stuff as much as BREL stuff back in the day.

I know. The 313s had many issues when introduced. It is not me that is struggling with the concept things will get worse before they get better. Looking forward to the air-conditioning however.

 

[samuelmorris]

Aren't you a little ray of sunshine

To be fair the 'correction' post I thought was quite rude and would have taken issue with that myself. There are many more polite ways of pointing out that another user's post omits pertinent information.

 

[TRAX]

So what exactly are you trying to prove ?
Don’t you think the manufacturer of your car made prototypes to test all sorts of things, and had a lot of failures in the process ?

 

[K.o.R]

The PRM mods have been done, the Wi-Fi is getting fitted now. I suspect the only 313's that would ever come south will be dedicated Christmas tree's

Christmas trees...?

 

[gazr]

Christmas trees...?

Used for parts. Does the saying refer to the fact it just sits there looking 'pretty'?

 

[Aictos]

Christmas trees...?

Yeah if I'm right, they're basically units with major faults that have been stripped of equipment to keep other units in service unless I misunderstood the term.

As to Mr Happy, I'm sorry but I don't think the introduction of the Class 717 fleet will be as bad as you're making out.

You are though being over dramatic though with your crystal ball

 

[K.o.R]

Another reason that @Failed Unit has forgotten is headlight failure so that's three reasons why a Class 313 might be diverted to Kings Cross as well as a issue with the 3rd rail tripping out which is a 4th reason!

It'll be fine, they have yellow fr... oh wait

 

[sprunt]

It is not me that is struggling with the concept things will get worse before they get better.

It's you who seems to be insisting that an introduction of new trains that hasn't actually even happened yet is a failure because of something that is expected for any introduction of new trains.

As for the fate of the 313s, at the risk of taking this thread off-topic I was wondering if there's any possibility of them being press-ganged into use on the GOBLIN if the trains currently away from there are taken away before the new ones (710s?) are ready - I've read somewhere there's a risk of that. I'm right in thinking that the GOBLIN electrification is finished, and it's just the lack of electric trains that are holding up an electrified service there, aren't I?

 

[Fincra5]

It's you who seems to be insisting that an introduction of new trains that hasn't actually even happened yet is a failure because of something that is expected for any introduction of new trains.

As for the fate of the 313s, at the risk of taking this thread off-topic I was wondering if there's any possibility of them being press-ganged into use on the GOBLIN if the trains currently away from there are taken away before the new ones (710s?) are ready - I've read somewhere there's a risk of that. I'm right in thinking that the GOBLIN electrification is finished, and it's just the lack of electric trains that are holding up an electrified service there, aren't I?

There's also the lack of DOO equipment on 313s... Unless LO provide a dispatcher at every station on the GOBLIN for an interm period. Wasn't as issue when LO had guards.

 

[samuelmorris]

As for the fate of the 313s, at the risk of taking this thread off-topic I was wondering if there's any possibility of them being press-ganged into use on the GOBLIN if the trains currently away from there are taken away before the new ones (710s?) are ready - I've read somewhere there's a risk of that. I'm right in thinking that the GOBLIN electrification is finished, and it's just the lack of electric trains that are holding up an electrified service there, aren't I?

Seems unlikely, training issues etc. and DOO situation - I believe the GOBLIN will imminently be reverting to a bus service for the duration of the period between the remaining 172s going to WMT and the 710s being available (probably a period of 3-6 months starting early next year)

 

[jon0844]

Seems unlikely, training issues etc. and DOO situation - I believe the GOBLIN will imminently be reverting to a bus service for the duration of the period between the remaining 172s going to WMT and the 710s being available (probably a period of 3-6 months starting early next year)

It was bad enough when Bombardier had all the buttons fall off their trains, but I didn't the next step would be no trains at all.

That said, I've heard the 717 introduction might have been postponed by an as yet unknown period of time. Not sure the reason why (I've merely heard there's maybe still an issue at Moorgate).

 

[sprunt]

There's also the lack of DOO equipment on 313s... Unless LO provide a dispatcher at every station on the GOBLIN for an interm period. Wasn't as issue when LO had guards.

I assumed there would be reasons that people who knew more than me could give - driver training being the main obstacle I guess - but why is there a lack of DOO equipment on 313s? They're DOO on the NCL at the moment (without any platform staff present at Hornsey at least).