GN Class 717

[marko2]

Because the current GTR franchise (management contract) was not specified to require new trains for the coastway.

Have these trains got PRM modifications already? The 313s on the Moorgate service certainly haven't.

 

[swt_passenger]

Have these trains got PRM modifications already? The 313s on the Moorgate service certainly haven't.

Without searching I’m pretty sure it was said last year they were almost done, with only very minor items outstanding. Their starting condition following their last overhaul put them in a completely different place to the GN fleet.

 

[aleggatta]

Without searching I’m pretty sure it was said last year they were almost done, with only very minor items outstanding. Their starting condition following their last overhaul put them in a completely different place to the GN fleet.

The PRM mods have been done, the Wi-Fi is getting fitted now. I suspect the only 313's that would ever come south will be dedicated Christmas tree's

 

[swt_passenger]

The PRM mods have been done, the Wi-Fi is getting fitted now. I suspect the only 313's that would ever come south will be dedicated Christmas tree's

Thanks for confirming. Saves me searching for where it was mentioned before. I remember there was a spreadsheet on the DfT website a good few years (possible 5 or 6 years) ago which compared the two sub-classes - they were completely different regarding RVAR and PRM requirements even then.

 

[GEC465]

When is the 717 go into enter service?

 

[swt_passenger]

When is the 717 go into enter service?

Should have been a couple of trains last week (that was in uk modern EMU Yahoo group), the expected services from Dec 10 were listed a few posts back. Probably next week for a soft start now.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is strange people are looking as this introduction as a success. How the bar has fallen as I would be embarrassed that so many new trains are stood idle.

The other thing is that people seem to think that we will get a reliable service once they are introduced?

What is the least reliable train in the GTR fleet? The class 700.

Will the 717s be more reliable than the 313s? Yes maybe in 2020. But in 2019 expect the service to get worse as they fall down the new train bathtub. This isn’t a dig at the 717. All new trains are less reliable than what they replace, until they bed in.

 

[Doomotron]

It is strange people are looking as this introduction as a success. How the bar has fallen as I would be embarrassed that so many new trains are stood idle.

The other thing is that people seem to think that we will get a reliable service once they are introduced?

What is the least reliable train in the GTR fleet? The class 700.

Will the 717s be more reliable than the 313s? Yes maybe in 2020. But in 2019 expect the service to get worse as they fall down the new train bathtub. This isn’t a dig at the 717. All new trains are less reliable than what they replace, until they bed in.

I don't even know whether you're being aggressive, or if you're just being passive aggressive...

 

[Fincra5]

Presumably released 313s won't be coming to the coast to add much needed capacity presumably because of not having sdo

I'd love the southern 313s to be replaced. They came over in 2010 replacing much superior 377s and are hardly suited to Brighton to Portsmouth duties.

Guess they will be around a few years yet

The 377/3s which the 313/2s replaced are still needed in London for 10car Metro services. There will be no new stock for the coastway in this franchise. The GN 717s will free up some 313s to be Christmas Trees.

 

[jon0844]

It is strange people are looking as this introduction as a success. How the bar has fallen as I would be embarrassed that so many new trains are stood idle.

The other thing is that people seem to think that we will get a reliable service once they are introduced?

What is the least reliable train in the GTR fleet? The class 700.

Will the 717s be more reliable than the 313s? Yes maybe in 2020. But in 2019 expect the service to get worse as they fall down the new train bathtub. This isn’t a dig at the 717. All new trains are less reliable than what they replace, until they bed in.

313s are rapidly becoming unreliable, and there's no apparent desire to do anything costly on them as they're either off lease now or imminently. Forget the graffiti issues, the flooring that is coming up to become a trip hazard, the missing advert/route map poster frames, more windows that won't close, more leaks into train, the non functioning PA audio in many coaches and consider the units going around with motors not working, with cab radio faults so they have to be 'boxed in' and even situations where the lights don't work and need to run with an emergency light stuck on.

All this alone should ensure the 717s are an improvement for passengers, even with some initial teething issues.

 

[Failed Unit]

313s are rapidly becoming unreliable, and there's no apparent desire to do anything costly on them as they're either off lease now or imminently. Forget the graffiti issues, the flooring that is coming up to become a trip hazard, the missing advert/route map poster frames, more windows that won't close, more leaks into train, the non functioning PA audio in many coaches and consider the units going around with motors not working, with cab radio faults so they have to be 'boxed in' and even situations where the lights don't work and need to run with an emergency light stuck on.

All this alone should ensure the 717s are an improvement for passengers, even with some initial teething issues.

But the 313s are still actually more reliable than the 700s. But I know the issues with the 313s as I am on them everyday and how GTR are running them into the ground. But even with GTRs lack of care is this really a good way to show an improvement? Make the existing so bad that anything is an improvement? I guess the answer is yes considering that is what they have done with the timetable.

 

[jon0844]

What are the problems with the 700s exactly? I know there are a lot of door issues but they're almost always down to 'driver error', and particularly bad given the number of newly trained drivers that take out the xx02/xx32 semi-fast services to King's Cross from WGC, who have problems for the first few days, but what major problems?

 

[Failed Unit]

What are the problems with the 700s exactly? I know there are a lot of door issues but they're almost always down to 'driver error', and particularly bad given the number of newly trained drivers that take out the xx02/xx32 semi-fast services to King's Cross from WGC, who have problems for the first few days, but what major problems?

I don’t know. I am sure it will be covered in some depth in next months modern railways. But they are still struggling in terms of reliability,(compared to where they should be) whether it is driver error or otherwise. Remember as well this is the entire fleet so some drivers have used them for 2 years now.

 

[jon0844]

I don’t know. I am sure it will be covered in some depth in next months modern railways. But they are still struggling in terms of reliability,(compared to where they should be) whether it is driver error or otherwise. Remember as well this is the entire fleet so some drivers have used them for 2 years now.

And many a few weeks. There's a lot of 700 training going on now, with the conversion course for the 717 taking place later. AFAIK nobody is learning the 717s exclusively.

 

[700007]

The 717s are the 3rd batch of Desiro Cities and given how well the 707s are doing compared to other new trains, I have faith that these will do just as well or even better. The 700s are still more reliable than some other new units out there...

 

[Failed Unit]

And many a few weeks. There's a lot of 700 training going on now, with the conversion course for the 717 taking place later. AFAIK nobody is learning the 717s exclusively.

The month updates have certainly not suggested driver error as the largest factory, just struggling to climb out the bathtub. The 707s are doing much better in that respect. I understand the timetable had planned on 15k miles per technical incident to work, the 700s are closer to 10k now. It could explain another reason why GTR are in no hurry to restore the current timetable - the 700s will collapse.

The 717s will have to fall into the bathtub, I hope GTR get a massive bill from the ROSCO for the neglect of the 313s. But apart from a tatty condition of the 313s, from my experience they don't seem to be failing more than last year. Other may differ, but I have being on more 700s which have failed than 313s since May.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 717s are the 3rd batch of Desiro Cities and given how well the 707s are doing compared to other new trains, I have faith that these will do just as well or even better. The 700s are still more reliable than some other new units out there...

That maybe true - but we should compare the 700s to other units in the GTR fleet, for which they are the least reliable. The 707s are top of the table but still rather a long what below the likes of the 313. I don't expect the 717s to work well out the box and need a number of months before they even come close to the 313s reliability level. As many of the drivers say the 313s are simple creatures. I still haven't seen an answer to how quick they will be able to turn them around, as reality is often that they arrive after they are due to leave in the current timetable at WGC and Moorgate.

 

[bramling]

The month updates have certainly not suggested driver error as the largest factory, just struggling to climb out the bathtub. The 707s are doing much better in that respect. I understand the timetable had planned on 15k miles per technical incident to work, the 700s are closer to 10k now. It could explain another reason why GTR are in no hurry to restore the current timetable - the 700s will collapse.

The 717s will have to fall into the bathtub, I hope GTR get a massive bill from the ROSCO for the neglect of the 313s. But apart from a tatty condition of the 313s, from my experience they don't seem to be failing more than last year. Other may differ, but I have being on more 700s which have failed than 313s since May.

Ultimately, whilst the condition into which the 313s has fallen is shameful, there’s little value in GTR being penalised for it — it’s sadly likely the GN fleet will be scrapped fairly soon after withdrawal.

To be fair to Hornsey, the 313s have become incredibly intensively worked over the last few years. More evening services, more peak services, more shoulder peak services, six cars all day, six cars at weekends, and from May an increased frequency to add to it. It would be interesting to compare the mileage they run each week now compared to WAGN days.

The 365s were the same - now they are not working quite so hard there’s been a very noticeable enhancement in their condition, both in terms of presentation and in terms of units running around with minor faults - isolated motors, gangway doors stuck, no heating, hopper window mechanism broken and the like are much much rarer now.

 

[43096]

The month updates have certainly not suggested driver error as the largest factory, just struggling to climb out the bathtub. The 707s are doing much better in that respect. I understand the timetable had planned on 15k miles per technical incident to work, the 700s are closer to 10k now. It could explain another reason why GTR are in no hurry to restore the current timetable - the 700s will collapse.

The 717s will have to fall into the bathtub, I hope GTR get a massive bill from the ROSCO for the neglect of the 313s. But apart from a tatty condition of the 313s, from my experience they don't seem to be failing more than last year. Other may differ, but I have being on more 700s which have failed than 313s since May.

If GTR are doing proper root cause analysis then any driver errors will not be being booked down as an MTIN failure against the fleet.

 

[Bikeman78]

But the 313s are still actually more reliable than the 700s. But I know the issues with the 313s as I am on them everyday and how GTR are running them into the ground. But even with GTRs lack of care is this really a good way to show an improvement? Make the existing so bad that anything is an improvement? I guess the answer is yes considering that is what they have done with the timetable.

In the region of 12000 miles per failure. Also covering 41 diagrams from a fleet of 44 units is good going for such an old fleet.

 

[Aictos]

What is the least reliable train in the GTR fleet? The class 700.

Can I just point out that when South West Trains brought in the Class 458s back in 2000, the trains were so reliable that they only managed a average of 4,300 miles between failures compared to a average of 50,000 miles between failures for former Slam Door Trains or even a average of 21,000 miles between failures for the Class 450 introduced around the same time.

Indeed it wasn't until the Class 458s got refreshed in 2008 - 2010 that by 2012 they actually had a average of 106,049 miles between failures becoming the first fleet to get a 6 figure rating and also as a result was awarded a Modern Railways Golden Spanner award in the New Generation EMU category on 23 November 2012.

Will the 717s be more reliable than the 313s? Yes maybe in 2020. But in 2019 expect the service to get worse as they fall down the new train bathtub. This isn’t a dig at the 717. All new trains are less reliable than what they replace, until they bed in.

I disagree with this as we have the Class 707s and Class 700s which are based on the same family as the Class 717s so there shouldn't be any major issues as the reliability issues should have been resolved by the time the entire Class 717 fleet is in daily service.

So no I don't expect the Class 717s to take until 2020 although at the moment you have Fleet, Drivers and Platform Staff all being trained on the fleet so will take time to build up that knowledge but they seem to have learnt from the introduction of the Class 700s on the GN.

 

[Failed Unit]

Can I just point out that when South West Trains brought in the Class 458s back in 2000, the trains were so reliable that they only managed a average of 4,300 miles between failures compared to a average of 50,000 miles between failures for former Slam Door Trains or even a average of 21,000 miles between failures for the Class 450 introduced around the same time.

Indeed it wasn't until the Class 458s got refreshed in 2008 - 2010 that by 2012 they actually had a average of 106,049 miles between failures becoming the first fleet to get a 6 figure rating and also as a result was awarded a Modern Railways Golden Spanner award in the New Generation EMU category on 23 November 2012.



I disagree with this as we have the Class 707s and Class 700s which are based on the same family as the Class 717s so there shouldn't be any major issues as the reliability issues should have been resolved by the time the entire Class 717 fleet is in daily service.

So no I don't expect the Class 717s to take until 2020 although at the moment you have Fleet, Drivers and Platform Staff all being trained on the fleet so will take time to build up that knowledge but they seem to have learnt from the introduction of the Class 700s on the GN.

Don’t see the relevance of you first part of this post. Unless it is to prove that new things don’t work out the box first time. But no idea what you are basing the 717s will be alright on?

The 717s have different cabs, the 717s have different safety systems. I see no reason why they won’t fall down the bathtub like all new stock does. As for when it climbs back up we will see who is right. But 2020 is actually in my opinion fairly optimistic considering the slow progress the 700s are making.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

It is strange people are looking as this introduction as a success. How the bar has fallen as I would be embarrassed that so many new trains are stood idle.

When was the last time you personally delivered a brand-new walk-through EMU to the Railway?

Pretty sure Siemens are doing the best they can, especially when the comparison is Bombardier.

Anyway, those trains are idle because drivers need to be trained on them, and as we know from Thameslink you need many drivers trained in order for a single train's diagram to be covered.

 

[Failed Unit]

When was the last time you personally delivered a brand-new walk-through EMU to the Railway?

Pretty sure Siemens are doing the best they can, especially when the comparison is Bombardier.

Anyway, those trains are idle because drivers need to be trained on them, and as we know from Thameslink you need many drivers trained in order for a single train's diagram to be covered.

I won’t dispute GTRs inept management of the franchise isn’t helping. But I would not be proud of this if I was Siemens either. As a manufacturer you want to be the best and set the bar high. “We are better than Bombardier” should not be the objective, providing a more reliable product than the one it replaces should be the objective. For some reason this isn’t happening, which must be upsetting when you consider how good the 350s, 450s etc are.

 

[jon0844]

I want to see the list of problems the 700s have, to see how serious they are. I've heard of journey code entry problems where the train refuses to accept a journey, and won't release the doors. As such, the driver has needed to override the system [MSDO] to proceed and some will refuse to do so, as it introduces a risk of opening the wrong doors at certain stations, and fail the unit. There's certainly a learning curve for train crew and I think the TL drivers who have had a lot longer with them will have worked out all the little foibles that aren't necessarily faults when there are workaround.

Sometimes it could be a planning error (wrong PIS code issued on a diagram), a driver error (not doing the process correctly) or it may well be a fault with the software. I have no idea how it goes down as a fault officially.

 

[Failed Unit]

I want to see the list of problems the 700s have, to see how serious they are. I've heard of journey code entry problems where the train refuses to accept a journey, and won't release the doors. As such, the driver has needed to override the system [MSDO] to proceed and some will refuse to do so, as it introduces a risk of opening the wrong doors at certain stations, and fail the unit. There's certainly a learning curve for train crew and I think the TL drivers who have had a lot longer with them will have worked out all the little foibles that aren't necessarily faults when there are workaround.

Sometimes it could be a planning error (wrong PIS code issued on a diagram), a driver error (not doing the process correctly) or it may well be a fault with the software. I have no idea how it goes down as a fault officially.

That is my big concern with the 717. Turn around is short. Normally as long as it takes for the driver to change ends with the delays on the route. A 313 doesn’t take long. If a 717 has a hissy for because of a wrong code the delays snow ball. As the drivers say with the 313, key and go.

 

[APUK002]

I want to see the list of problems the 700s have, to see how serious they are. I've heard of journey code entry problems where the train refuses to accept a journey, and won't release the doors. As such, the driver has needed to override the system [MSDO] to proceed and some will refuse to do so, as it introduces a risk of opening the wrong doors at certain stations, and fail the unit. There's certainly a learning curve for train crew and I think the TL drivers who have had a lot longer with them will have worked out all the little foibles that aren't necessarily faults when there are workaround.

Sometimes it could be a planning error (wrong PIS code issued on a diagram), a driver error (not doing the process correctly) or it may well be a fault with the software. I have no idea how it goes down as a fault officially.

Don’t 700 drivers,have option to select which doors to open manually ,like on say 387 by TMS?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

But I would not be proud of this if I was Siemens either. As a manufacturer you want to be the best and set the bar high. “We are better than Bombardier” should not be the objective, providing a more reliable product than the one it replaces should be the objective. For some reason this isn’t happening, which must be upsetting when you consider how good the 350s, 450s etc are.

How do YOU know they are not trying their best? I think it's pretty naive to assume they're not. No manufacturer wants to be late in delivery; they're trying to make a profit and they do that by delivering a working train on time. Depending on the contract they may incur some financial cost if they're late, and it also causes reputational damage. Bombardier do not look good out of the Aventra saga - it'll likely make future clients think twice unless they can prove newer units won't suffer the same headache that the 345s and 710s have done. The same is true for software - if a TOC thinks a manufacturer's trains are going to be an ongoing reliability problem they'll potentially go to another manufacturer. Competition should be spurring excellence. If it's not, then something's wrong with the market and the relevant regulator needs to work out why.

 

[jon0844]

Don’t 700 drivers,have option to select which doors to open manually ,like on say 387 by TMS?

Yes, but I understand some drivers will only use it for a genuine emergency.. not because they couldn't set a journey and allow the train to know to lock out the doors at certain stations automatically.

Another consideration is that if you don't have the journey set up correctly, passengers won't see the destination of the train, stopping patterns or be warned inside that (for example) the last four coaches will not open at the next station, leading to a good chance of someone using the passcom.

 

[Failed Unit]

How do YOU know they are not trying their best? I think it's pretty naive to assume they're not. No manufacturer wants to be late in delivery; they're trying to make a profit and they do that by delivering a working train on time. Depending on the contract they may incur some financial cost if they're late, and it also causes reputational damage. Bombardier do not look good out of the Aventra saga - it'll likely make future clients think twice unless they can prove newer units won't suffer the same headache that the 345s and 710s have done. The same is true for software - if a TOC thinks a manufacturer's trains are going to be an ongoing reliability problem they'll potentially go to another manufacturer. Competition should be spurring excellence. If it's not, then something's wrong with the market and the relevant regulator needs to work out why.

Did I say they were not trying their best? No I didn’t. I just stated their best isn’t good enough. Take a chill pill.