GN Class 717

[Aictos]

On balance it's a good thing, however I must admit I did occasionally like to use the Letchworth-Moorgate service in order to visit the garden centres at Crews Hill! Since May that journey is now enough of a pain that it's virtually unviable to do by train compared to car. Nonetheless I can't imagine many travel from Hitchin and Letchworth to the Hertford loop, so it's probably a justifiable decision. What is less forgivable is the bus substitution when it comes - there's absolutely no excuse for not getting the Stevenage fifth platform built in time for the Thameslink Programme.!

The fifth platform really ought to have been built years ago when they upgraded the Up Goods from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park to passenger standards, they should have delivered the extra platform at Stevenage at the same time - The fact that they say it's being built for the TL Programme is neither here or there as it would have delivered benefits far far sooner.

As a example, at weekends they could have ran all the Hertford Loop services though to Stevenage as by using the 5th platform there was enough time to run though to Stevenage, change ends and still depart Hertford on time heading to London meaning the Loop had a half hourly service all day in both directions.

So using the excuse of the TL Programme is rather much like smoke and mirrors, they could have had it in place years ago but choose not to .

 

[ijmad]

What is less forgivable is the bus substitution when it comes - there's absolutely no excuse for not getting the Stevenage fifth platform built in time for the Thameslink Programme.

Quite, presumably the lack of through services is a foreshadowing of the pain to come when trains won't even be reaching Stevenage, let alone continuing on to Hitchin or Letchworth.

 

[Downthelane]

No doubt performance will be better, although I wouldn't expect it to be a game-changer. Those passengers who currently stand will doubtless like the extra space and air conditioning, those who board at some of the middle places won't appreciate the fact that they no longer get a seat, and those from the outer reaches will probably like them if hard seats are to their taste and dislike them if not. On balance I'd prefer a 313, but then I don't commute from somewhere like Winchmore Hill in the morning peak where I can well imagine the 313s are a grim experience!

Why exactly will these passengers no longer get a seat?

 

[bramling]

Why exactly will these passengers no longer get a seat?

I forget the exact figure, but the seating capacity of a 717 is rather less than 2x313, thanks to features like the 2+2, stand backs, accessible areas, et cetera.

In reality for a service where in the morning the train will progressively fill as the journey progresses towards London, there comes a point where all seats are taken. Naturally with a reduction in seats this point will come sooner. Unless something else changes, generally the same people will find themselves affected as generally the morning peak tends to be more concentrated than the evening and generally stays the same from one day to the next (Monday and Friday excepted).

 

[ijmad]

I forget the exact figure, but the seating capacity of a 717 is rather less than 2x313, thanks to features like the 2+2, stand backs, accessible areas, et cetera..

462 seats on 2x313s vs 362 seats on a 717

That said, do people actually sit on the middle seat of a 3-wide row these days? I seem to remember them often being empty on the 319s even during the Thameslink crush hours.

 

[bramling]

That said, do people actually sit on the middle seat of a 3-wide row these days?

The certainly do get used on the Welwyn and Hertford lines. Last to fill for sure, but most certainly used in my experience.

They were used on the GN 317s too, although not quite so much on the GN 321s.

Although I’ve never used it regularly, on the few occasions I have used the Hertford line on a winter’s morning the atmosphere is pretty awful. The seats will all be taken fairly quickly, then there will be issues as standees don’t move down. More fuss as someone seated tries to alight at an intermediate station and struggles to get to the doors. Then most likely a squabble when someone opens a window and someone else objects to a draught. The 313s would be fine if they were able to run in 9-car formations and didn’t run quite so crush loaded. The flip side of the coin is this only applies for a relatively small part of the traffic day - outside of the high peak they’re perfectly fine IMO.

 

[ijmad]

Although I’ve never used it regularly, on the few occasions I have used the Hertford line on a winter’s morning the atmosphere is pretty awful. The seats will all be taken fairly quickly, then there will be issues as standees don’t move down. More fuss as someone seated tries to alight at an intermediate station and struggles to get to the doors. Then most likely a squabble when someone opens a window and someone else objects to a draught. The 313s would be fine if they were able to run in 9-car formations and didn’t run quite so crush loaded. The flip side of the coin is this only applies for a relatively small part of the traffic day - outside of the high peak they’re perfectly fine IMO.

I think going to 2+2 is the right trade-off, the wider aisles and vestibules are essential for the sort of crush loading you're talking about. A lot of people don't like the 700s for longer journeys but they're a godsend for metro Thameslink services. Many times, for example, I remember being unable to get off a 319 in the evening at Herne Hill because people were blocking the aisles and unable to move because the doors were so narrow half the coach would have to get off the train to let you pass.

Likewise it was always a battle to get on and stay in a place where you'd be able to get off at the station in central London that you wanted. Perhaps not such a big problem for the GN services where everything is going to Moorgate -- have never experienced the peak there, but I imagine a good clutch of people get off at Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington?

Having 100 fewer seats helps the peak, and lacking 100 or so seats difference isn't going to matter outside the peaks.

I imagine the step change with the 717s will be similar, regular commuters will be happier, although people on particularly long journeys may find the seats uncomfortable as is the case with the 700s.

 

[bramling]

I think going to 2+2 is the right trade-off, the wider aisles and vestibules are essential for the sort of crush loading you're talking about. A lot of people don't like the 700s for longer journeys but they're a godsend for metro Thameslink services. Many times, for example, I remember being unable to get off a 319 in the evening at Herne Hill because people were blocking the aisles and unable to move because the doors were so narrow half the coach would have to get off the train to let you pass.

Likewise it was always a battle to get on and stay in a place where you'd be able to get off at the station in central London that you wanted. Perhaps not such a big problem for the GN services where everything is going to Moorgate -- have never experienced the peak there, but I imagine a good clutch of people get off at Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington?

Having 100 fewer seats helps the peak, and lacking 100 or so seats difference isn't going to matter outside the peaks.

I imagine the step change with the 717s will be similar, regular commuters will be happier, although people on particularly long journeys may find the seats uncomfortable as is the case with the 700s.

One of the more regular users of that part of the operation will have to say for sure, but I don’t think there’s too much of an exodus at Finsbury Park, as anyone heading for the Underground has Highbury, Old Street and Moorgate to make the change which is generally easier. This is in contrast to the Kings Cross services where there is more of an exodus as it can save time over changing at Kings Cross, plus of course some will be wanting to head towards Moorgate.

Wow betide anyone who boards at somewhere like Hertford and settles into a seat and wants to alight at somewhere like Alexandra Palace, especially if you have luggage with you...

 

[jon0844]

Be at the back of the train. Loads of storage room behind the cab and the best chance of getting a seat, and certain easy access to the last set of doors.

With SDO in operation in the tunnel to Moorgate, I think the rear coach will be the place to go.

 

[BowesRanger]

One of the more regular users of that part of the operation will have to say for sure, but I don’t think there’s too much of an exodus at Finsbury Park, as anyone heading for the Underground has Highbury, Old Street and Moorgate to make the change which is generally easier. This is in contrast to the Kings Cross services where there is more of an exodus as it can save time over changing at Kings Cross, plus of course some will be wanting to head towards Moorgate.

Wow betide anyone who boards at somewhere like Hertford and settles into a seat and wants to alight at somewhere like Alexandra Palace, especially if you have luggage with you...

I use the route daily, and i can say there's usually a massive exodus at Finsbury Park, followed by a massive influx. I'd say anything between 30 to 40% change in passengers in the morning peak. Similar situation repeats at highbury.

It can all take quite a lot of time, so assuming the 717s are quicker in that regard, you could easily save a couple of minutes of time just at those stations

 

[jon0844]

An awful lot of people change at Finsbury Park, either for the Victoria Line south (despite the quick access at Highbury and Islington) or other services, or even leaving the station to get a bus.

That's why I always recommend people get faster trains to Finsbury Park if possible and change there for Moorgate, because enough people will get off that you can get on (nearer the back being especially easy).

I did it for many years and the only time it wasn't easy or comfortable was when a 3 car came in. But the diagrams were fixed so you just waited for the next 6 car.

 

[jellybaby]

One of the more regular users of that part of the operation will have to say for sure, but I don’t think there’s too much of an exodus at Finsbury Park, as anyone heading for the Underground has Highbury

If you change for the Victoria at H&I in the peak then you spend a lot longer waiting on the platform watching full trains go past than you do at Finsbury Park so the longer change further out is worth it.

It's also a lot quicker on the Victoria line. Going the other way I've seen the train I want to catch leave the platform at H&I, crossed over to the Victoria and made it to the platform at FP before the train I missed pulled in.

 

[sprunt]

I go from Hornsey to Moorgate every morning, and I never see any squabbles, or people unable to get off where they want to get off. In fact, since May it generally seems to be a lot quieter in the mornings. Part of that may be that I'm now catching slightly earlier trains (typically the 8.14 where it used to be one of the trains either side of 8.30) but yesterday I caught the 8.23, and was able to get a seat at Hornsey - this would have been unheard of six months ago.

 

[psychopompos]

I'm a regular Highbury&Islington to Moorgate commuter and mornings aren't particularly great. There's very significant turnover at H&I and it takes a very long time, especially in the first 2 cars. There are occasions where passengers are still fighting their way through the isle to get off when the "This train is now ready to depart" announcement comes. I'm hoping that 717s make this a lot better and I never have to let one leave without me. Or maybe I should just walk more often.

 

[BowesRanger]

I'm a regular Highbury&Islington to Moorgate commuter and mornings aren't particularly great. There's very significant turnover at H&I and it takes a very long time, especially in the first 2 cars. There are occasions where passengers are still fighting their way through the isle to get off when the "This train is now ready to depart" announcement comes. I'm hoping that 717s make this a lot better and I never have to let one leave without me. Or maybe I should just walk more often.

Off topic but I lost about 7kg last year, walking from highbury to Moorgate... Partly because i was fed up with the train experience.. I recommend it.

Now I've moved further out I'm dependent on rickety 313 buggers, and probably putting the weight back on

 

[bramling]

I use the route daily, and i can say there's usually a massive exodus at Finsbury Park, followed by a massive influx. I'd say anything between 30 to 40% change in passengers in the morning peak. Similar situation repeats at highbury.

It can all take quite a lot of time, so assuming the 717s are quicker in that regard, you could easily save a couple of minutes of time just at those stations

I shall bow to the greater experience on this. It’s not been my experience, but my morning peak experience has been limited only to the odd journey over the years. Certainly each time I came away with the feeling “never again if I can avoid it”! The odd evening down journey hasn’t been much better.

The general reduction in 3-car services over the years will no doubt have helped - the extra three units from Silverlink will have assisted in that regard, along with the 321s allowing 313s to be kept on the Moorgates rather than doing the KX-Welwyn services.

One service which was certainly hurrendous was the 0720 Letchworth to KX. This was a nightmare when formed of 2x365s, all seats taken by Hatfield, all standing space taken by New Barnet, totally crush loaded by New Southgate. This was reduced to 2x313s for its final year or two, dread to think what that would have been like.

By contrast there’s massive over-capacity during the day at times, especially now it’s all 6-car. The Welwyn all stations trains can be rather empty especially north of New Barnet.

 

[tofl]

I go Hornsey to Moorgate and avoid 7.45 onwards, first train I bother trying for is 08.44. Perhaps it has improved, but a year or so ago it was a waste of time - most trains unpleasantly full. 08.44 is not quiet but easy enough to get on. I go to Farringdon so change at Finsbury Park now for the 08.52 or 09.08 TL service. That's usually not too bad. Going home is a different story - quicker Farringdon to Finsbury Park but Hornsey trains often close to unboardable so i go to Moorgate instead - slower but I get a seat.

Would it have been utterly unworkable to have 7-car trains? I don't know how many of the non-NCL platforms would be too short, but I'd say it would have been a big improvement in capacity without too much downside - if the right information is given.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Would it have been utterly unworkable to have 7-car trains? I don't know how many of the non-NCL platforms would be too short, but I'd say it would have been a big improvement in capacity without too much downside - if the right information is given.

We're limited by the terminal platforms at Moorgate. Did someone on this thread say Network Rail already made some changes to give the 717s a bit more room there?

 

[ijmad]

We're limited by the terminal platforms at Moorgate. Did someone on this thread say Network Rail already made some changes to give the 717s a bit more room there?

There's little reason a walk-through train couldn't hang one carriage in to the tunnel when in the platform at Moorgate, it'd just mean slightly longer disembarking times for people at the back. However I believe the issues are more the location of the Moorgate crossover which could be fouled by longer trains, and signal sighting, which could of course by corrected, but is not in the budget for now.

 

[Ethano92]

Reading through all these comments from regular commuters on the line, I think people will generally appreciate these new trains and understand the reason for less seats. Not that the seats on the 313s currently are particularly comfortable but I assume it will be the fainsa (hard) seating that rack in the complaints.

I generally don't mind less seats in and around busy areas, I think they're needed. Being caught out on TFL rail on a Saturday when people are coming home with all their shopping from Westfields is bad enough yet alone peak commuting times and 345s on the line are a godsend just like 717s will be on GN. But just like all new stock, it's the lack of comfort that gets me.

People are saying the 345s are suitable but my butt was numb on the longitudinal seats from Romford to Liverpool Street. Although I don't mind fainsa seats when I'm not sitting next to anyone, I always head for declassified first class on the 700s so I've kind of forgotten what fainsa without spacers are like.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

These will be 717 operated from December 10 at WGC:

2K10 0608
2K13 0624
2K43 0854
2K48 0924
2K50 0938
2K52 0958
2K62 1109
2K66 1139
2K72 1228
2K80 1328
2K84 1358
2K00 1439
2K16 1609
2K18 1628
2K21 1632
2K31 1728
2K36 1758
2K42 1828
2K46 1858
2K52 1943
2K54 1958
2K72 2209
2K74 2222

I am sure I don't need to add a disclaimer that it may be subject to change etc.

Thanks for the info
Would you be able to details of 717-rostered trains in the Moorgate - WGC direction? I might choose to eschew Kings Cross in favour of riding one of these on the 10th

 

[jon0844]

Monday to Friday from Moorgate

2F04 06.07 Stevenage
2B12 07.05 Hertford North
2F14 07.20 Stevenage
2F19 07.40 Watton-at-Stone
2G22 07.55 Gordon Hill
2V23 08.00 Welwyn Garden City
2V29 08.30 Welwyn Garden City
2V33 08.45 Welwyn Garden City
2V35 09.00 Welwyn Garden City
2B40 09.25 Hertford North
2V45 09.50 Welwyn Garden City
2V49 10.20 Welwyn Garden City
2B50 10.25 Hertford North
2F52 10.40 Watton-at-Stone
2B54 10.55 Hertford North
2V59 11.30 Welwyn Garden City
2F64 12.10 Stevenage
2V67 12.30 Welwyn Garden City
2F68 12.40 Watton-at-Stone
2V71 13.00 Welwyn Garden City
2V73 13.20 Welwyn Garden City
2B74 13.25 Hertford North
2B82 14.25 Hertford North
2V85 14.50 Welwyn Garden City
2B86 14.55 Hertford North
2V89 15.20 Welwyn Garden City
2V01 15.30 Welwyn Garden City
2F02 15.40 Watton-at-Stone
2F08 16.20 Stevenage
2V10 16.30 Welwyn Garden City
2V16 17.00 Welwyn Garden City
2B17 17.05 Hertford North
2G25 17.25 Gordon Hill
2V22 17.30 Welwyn Garden City
2V28 18.00 Welwyn Garden City
2F32 18.20 Stevenage
2V38 18.45 Welwyn Garden City
2F37 18.50 Watton-at-Stone
2G40 18.55 Gordon Hill
2V41 19.00 Welwyn Garden City
2B45 19.25 Hertford North
2B48 19.55 Hertford North
2B54 20.40 Hertford North
2V55 20.50 Welwyn Garden City
2B56 20.55 Hertford North
2V59 21.20 Welwyn Garden City
2V61 21.30 Welwyn Garden City
2V65 22.00 Welwyn Garden City
2V73 23.00 Welwyn Garden City
2B74 23.10 Hertford North
2F76 23.20 Stevenage
2V77 23.27 Welwyn Garden City

As has been said by others, they may not all be running on the 10th. I don't know the diagrams, but if one 717 is replaced with a 313 then it will mean a number of the above will be a 313.

 

[Cletus]

There’s at least three 717’s (I assume that’s what they are) at Dollands Moor this morning.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's little reason a walk-through train couldn't hang one carriage in to the tunnel when in the platform at Moorgate, it'd just mean slightly longer disembarking times for people at the back. However I believe the issues are more the location of the Moorgate crossover which could be fouled by longer trains, and signal sighting, which could of course by corrected, but is not in the budget for now.

It’s the crossover location that’s the trouble. Signal sighting is a consequent issue, as (obviously) the signals need to be in rear of the crossover!

 

[387star]

Presumably released 313s won't be coming to the coast to add much needed capacity presumably because of not having sdo

I'd love the southern 313s to be replaced. They came over in 2010 replacing much superior 377s and are hardly suited to Brighton to Portsmouth duties.

Guess they will be around a few years yet

 

[Agent_Squash]

Presumably released 313s won't be coming to the coast to add much needed capacity presumably because of not having sdo

I'd love the southern 313s to be replaced. They came over in 2010 replacing much superior 377s and are hardly suited to Brighton to Portsmouth duties.

Guess they will be around a few years yet

The Southern 313s don't have SDO either?

 

[rebmcr]

The Southern 313s don't have SDO either?

Lengthened trains would find themselves newly in need of SDO.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Lengthened trains would find themselves newly in need of SDO.

Football stoppers would be the only use for them then. Why not a follow on order for 717s for a 6 coach Coastway?

 

[swt_passenger]

Football stoppers would be the only use for them then. Why not a follow on order for 717s for a 6 coach Coastway?

Because the current GTR franchise (management contract) was not specified to require new trains for the coastway.

 

[marko2]

I'm a regular Highbury&Islington to Moorgate commuter and mornings aren't particularly great. There's very significant turnover at H&I and it takes a very long time, especially in the first 2 cars. There are occasions where passengers are still fighting their way through the isle to get off when the "This train is now ready to depart" announcement comes. I'm hoping that 717s make this a lot better and I never have to let one leave without me. Or maybe I should just walk more often.

This happens at Finsbury Park as well - not enough dwell time for the rolling stock used. On not a few occasions, have passengers still been getting off the train when the driver attempts to shut the doors. I can't possibly see how the dispatchers on the platform can see what's happening down the full length of the train given that this was happening with a crowd gathered around the doors - many of which would have not have got on and needed to wait for the next train whatever happened.