GN Class 717

[700007]

The lack of toilet facilities does of course not automatically stop people from going to the toilet on a 717.

Where's that like button?!

 

[petersi]

govia video about 717 a bit old (nov 1 2018) might intestest someone

 

[332 > 444]

The lack of toilet facilities does of course not automatically stop people from going to the toilet on a 717.

Knowing my luck, this will happen to me with a great big hulking turd!

 

[Aictos]

It’s quite simple. Extend those platforms which can easily be extended. SDO at the rest.

Apart from the fact that all the platforms CAN be extended and it's only Platform 2/3 at Hertford and Platform 1/2 at Gordon Hill that needs SDO, you forgot one very important issue which is funding!

If they're not going to get Platform 4 reopened at Gordon Hill then I very much doubt that they will fund platform extensions to Hertford Loop stations unless you know of a money tree somewhere...

Reversal via Langley Junction so avoiding the need to use Hertford bay.

I'm sure Platform 1 at Hertford can easily be extended a few feet at the south end which can be used to reverse services as well as using Langley Junction as you have said.

And superimpose the service on top of the Moorgate service as a means of providing extra capacity.

This would be nice however you haven't said what you would do to replace the existing 8 car crowd buster services that Welwyn Garden City sees in the peaks as you seem to be directing them all via Hertford, forgetting that there are no 12 car stations that they call at.

Yes, you’re right, there’s an element of wishful thinking to it.

I would call it day dreaming or looking though rose tinted glasses myself.

However if it were combined with putting the displaced 12-car 700s onto Luton-Rainham (a route which I believe is more-or-less 12-car capable already and crying out for extra capacity in places), the displaced 8-cars could then run to Watton-at-Stone. The snag is what happens to the Horsham to London service, but even Horsham to Luton (12 cars) and Rainham to Watton (8 cars) would offer an improvement.

So Peterborough for one loses 12 car Class 700s so for losing one unit you need to find 3 four car units from somewhere, okay...

Why not either lengthen more 8 car Class 700s to 12 cars and order a few more 8 car Class 700s OR

just order a second batch of 12 car Class 700s so the majority of services are 12 cars where the infrastructure supports it.

govia video about 717 a bit old (nov 1 2018) might intestest someone

Thank you

 

[bramling]

Apart from the fact that all the platforms CAN be extended and it's only Platform 2/3 at Hertford and Platform 1/2 at Gordon Hill that needs SDO, you forgot one very important issue which is funding!
If they're not going to get Platform 4 reopened at Gordon Hill then I very much doubt that they will fund platform extensions to Hertford Loop stations unless you know of a money tree somewhere...

Hence why my thoughts were to extend those platforms which are easily do-able.

It's certainly a cheaper option than re-boring the NCL tunnels and platforms!

This would be nice however you haven't said what you would do to replace the existing 8 car crowd buster services that Welwyn Garden City sees in the peaks as you seem to be directing them all via Hertford, forgetting that there are no 12 car stations that they call at.

I wouldn't be touching the Welwyn service.

So Peterborough for one loses 12 car Class 700s so for losing one unit you need to find 3 four car units from somewhere, okay...

Quite simple. I wonder where there's a stack of, say, 20 4-car EMUs sitting spare, for which GN drivers are already trained on?!

Why not either lengthen more 8 car Class 700s to 12 cars and order a few more 8 car Class 700s OR
just order a second batch of 12 car Class 700s so the majority of services are 12 cars where the infrastructure supports it.

Magic money tree again!

 

[Aictos]

Hence why my thoughts were to extend those platforms which are easily do-able. It's certainly a cheaper option than re-boring the NCL tunnels and platforms!

But again you gloss over the fact that if they were going to do that then they would have do it by now or least announce plans to do so.

As it is, they were going to bring Platform 4 at GDH back into use but as they have now put that as well as Platform 5 at SVG on hold for the foreseeable future I cannot see them entertaining the thought of extending platforms on the Hertford Loop not even those which are in your words "easily do-able" no matter how much I would like all platforms on that line to take 8 cars.

 

[bramling]

But again you gloss over the fact that if they were going to do that then they would have do it by now or least announce plans to do so.

As it is, they were going to bring Platform 4 at GDH back into use but as they have now put that as well as Platform 5 at SVG on hold for the foreseeable future I cannot see them entertaining the thought of extending platforms on the Hertford Loop not even those which are in your words "easily do-able" no matter how much I would like all platforms on that line to take 8 cars.

As I said, it’s not such an issue with SDO, for which the trains are already fitted. If the Hertford loop is to get truly longer trains, very much needed at peak times, the only option is that they terminate somewhere other than Moorgate.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

As I said, it’s not such an issue with SDO, for which the trains are already fitted. If the Hertford loop is to get truly longer trains, very much needed at peak times, the only option is that they terminate somewhere other than Moorgate.

If only there were a station about 5 minutes drive from Finsbury Park, which could handle these mythical ex-Hertford trains. You could build a tunnel to divert some ex-Peterborough and ex-Cambridge services into St Pancras, thus making some spare capacity at Kings Cross. oh wait, hang on a second....

 

[Ianno87]

If only there were a station about 5 minutes drive from Finsbury Park, which could handle these mythical ex-Hertford trains. You could build a tunnel to divert some ex-Peterborough and ex-Cambridge services into St Pancras, thus making some spare capacity at Kings Cross. oh wait, hang on a second....

Capacity at King's Cross ain't the problem... it's capacity on the 4 tracks between Finsbury Park and Belle Isle.

6 tracks Ally Pally (and north thereof)-Finsbury Park into 4 tracks south of Finsbury Park 'doesn't go'.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Capacity at King's Cross ain't the problem... it's capacity on the 4 tracks between Finsbury Park and Belle Isle.

6 tracks Ally Pally (and north thereof)-Finsbury Park into 4 tracks south of Finsbury Park 'doesn't go'.

Anyway, there's a better plan to create capacity. Crossrail 2 (yes, I know it's little more than some glossy leaflets right now) will have a branch to New Southgate, which isn't going to change because there needs to be a depot there. I would not be surprised to see off-peak Welwyn inners sent into Crossrail 2, freeing up capacity for more Hertford trains into Moorgate. What would become of the Welwyn-Moorgate service I don't know; you can't send Crossrail 2 trains in the peak to Moorgate like you can Class 345s to Liverpool Street High Level, but I doubt you could remove the peak service entirely unless interchange was made supremely easy (and I can't see any way for that to occur with the current plans). Maybe a few 717s could serve Welwyn if you got the majority of the fleet out just for the peaks.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Why not either lengthen more 8 car Class 700s to 12 cars and order a few more 8 car Class 700s OR

just order a second batch of 12 car Class 700s so the majority of services are 12 cars where the infrastructure supports it.

How about a matching set of 5 car units that are about to become available (hardly used, own careful owner) run in 10 car formation and could free up some 700/1s to busier routes.

 

[Aictos]

As I said, it’s not such an issue with SDO, for which the trains are already fitted. If the Hertford loop is to get truly longer trains, very much needed at peak times, the only option is that they terminate somewhere other than Moorgate.

I'm not arguing but I'm being realistic, NOBODY be it GTR, London Overground, Network Rail, DfT etc are going to turn around and say "Hang on these trains have SDO fitted, why not use it at stations we can't lengthen the platforms and run longer trains."

There is more chance of someone from RUK becoming the next Secretary of State for Transport.

Capacity at King's Cross ain't the problem... it's capacity on the 4 tracks between Finsbury Park and Belle Isle.

6 tracks Ally Pally (and north thereof)-Finsbury Park into 4 tracks south of Finsbury Park 'doesn't go'.

Indeed, although when they open up the eastern bore to services again and remodel the approaches then it might be looked at, hint the word is MIGHT!

Anyway, there's a better plan to create capacity. Crossrail 2 (yes, I know it's little more than some glossy leaflets right now) will have a branch to New Southgate, which isn't going to change because there needs to be a depot there. I would not be surprised to see off-peak Welwyn inners sent into Crossrail 2, freeing up capacity for more Hertford trains into Moorgate. What would become of the Welwyn-Moorgate service I don't know; you can't send Crossrail 2 trains in the peak to Moorgate like you can Class 345s to Liverpool Street High Level, but I doubt you could remove the peak service entirely unless interchange was made supremely easy (and I can't see any way for that to occur with the current plans). Maybe a few 717s could serve Welwyn if you got the majority of the fleet out just for the peaks.

The issue I have with Crossrail 2 is rather then terminate at New Southgate they ought to continue to Welwyn Garden City as you have already good terminating facilities there when you bear in mind the infrastructure and you have a under used yard on the Up side which should have the land used to create either carriage sidings for Crossrail 2 or a depot for Crossrail 2.

They could still run Crossrail 2 half hourly north of New Southgate in the peaks with the rest terminating at New Southgate while off peak terminate them at Welwyn Garden City.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

The issue I have with Crossrail 2 is rather then terminate at New Southgate they ought to continue to Welwyn Garden City as you have already good terminating facilities there when you bear in mind the infrastructure and you have a under used yard on the Up side which should have the land used to create either carriage sidings for Crossrail 2 or a depot for Crossrail 2.

They could still run Crossrail 2 half hourly north of New Southgate in the peaks with the rest terminating at New Southgate while off peak terminate them at Welwyn Garden City.

Not every train can run north of New Southgate because there isn't the capacity. New Southgate will be like Paddington is going to be on Crossrail - a safe terminating point for many trains, but a few would head further to Welwyn and finish there. I'm not sure if platform length is a consideration anywhere, nor the siding lengths at Welwyn, but it seems too good an opportunity to add capacity to not merge in somehow.
I think it's only not been talked about before because to do so would create additional political and budgeting headache at the planning phase - the same way it was logical to anyone who knew anything about the GWML that Crossrail should go to Reading but no one at the DfT would make a comment until halfway through the project, when money was suddenly found to do it. Or it could be like Abbey Wood - Crossrail will go further; it's just a matter of time and finding the money.

 

[samuelmorris]

A fair solution but I wouldn't expect crossrail 2 much before the mid 2030s given the delays to the original which, apart from delaying the start of the next project, will also lessen the appetite to actually do it.

 

[03_179]

May have been another delivery? Looked to be the haulage units at Ferme Park this morning.

717021

 

[tofl]

Regarding overcrowding to Hertford, I notice that all of the peak time trains that call at Harringey and Hornsey now seem to be Hertford trains. I'm sure they used to be a mixture of Hertford and WGC. Both of those stations are quite well used to it must have shifted a fair few passengers onto Hertford services that were previously spread across the two. I also notice that twice as many Alexandra Palace to Moorgate trains are Hertford as WGC at peak times. Again I am sure it used to be more even. Hertford seems to have got a raw deal here, as do Hornsey et al because the Hertford trains generally seem more crowded.

 

[Aictos]

Regarding overcrowding to Hertford, I notice that all of the peak time trains that call at Harringey and Hornsey now seem to be Hertford trains. I'm sure they used to be a mixture of Hertford and WGC. Both of those stations are quite well used to it must have shifted a fair few passengers onto Hertford services that were previously spread across the two. I also notice that twice as many Alexandra Palace to Moorgate trains are Hertford as WGC at peak times. Again I am sure it used to be more even. Hertford seems to have got a raw deal here, as do Hornsey et al because the Hertford trains generally seem more crowded.

Indeed because some fool decided that it was better to have XX:09 and XX:39 off peak ex Welwyn Garden City services drop the Hornsey and Harringay stops and instead make sure that all ex Hertford Loop services instead call there...

It would have been better to instead allow for two ex Hertford Loop services to drop calls at these two stations for the simple reason that the route between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury is pretty much self contained so by using the Up Slow 2 and Down Slow 2 you can have services from Finsbury Park all the way to Watton on Stone being self contained so shouldn't be impacted by delays as much.

So yes the Loop did get shafted again!

 

[Bikeman78]

Because of the revised stopping position in the deep level stations the front is shorter, but the back is longer and the doors won’t open...

Is this to do with being able to see the signals? Did this crop up during driver training or was this always the plan? It won't help dwell times.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this to do with being able to see the signals? Did this crop up during driver training or was this always the plan? It won't help dwell times.

Yes, that’s the serious answer.

 

[jon0844]

Signal sighting is the issue, and I assume that Network Rail has considered that it is too expensive (or weren't ready) to move them and figured the new signalling would make it a waste of money, therefore SDO was a quick and easy solution.

The question is whether the current signals are ever changed or it will just wait until in-cab signalling comes.

 

[BowesRanger]

What are the current plans (if any) for resignalling the tunnels?

 

[jon0844]

These will be 717 operated from December 10 at WGC:

2K10 0608
2K13 0624
2K43 0854
2K48 0924
2K50 0938
2K52 0958
2K62 1109
2K66 1139
2K72 1228
2K80 1328
2K84 1358
2K00 1439
2K16 1609
2K18 1628
2K21 1632
2K31 1728
2K36 1758
2K42 1828
2K46 1858
2K52 1943
2K54 1958
2K72 2209
2K74 2222

I am sure I don't need to add a disclaimer that it may be subject to change etc.

 

[H0use]

These will be 717 operated from December 10 at WGC:

2K10 0608
2K13 0624
2K43 0854
2K48 0924
2K50 0938
2K52 0958
2K62 1109
2K66 1139
2K72 1228
2K80 1328
2K84 1358
2K00 1439
2K16 1609
2K18 1628
2K21 1632
2K31 1728
2K36 1758
2K42 1828
2K46 1858
2K52 1943
2K54 1958
2K72 2209
2K74 2222

I am sure I don't need to add a disclaimer that it may be subject to change etc.

Any idea about services on the Hertford loop? Welwyn already gets the 700s

 

[ijmad]

Congrats Siemens 717s on beating Bombardier's 710s in to regular customer service (barring unforeseen late issues)

 

[APUK002]

Congrats Siemens 717s on beating Bombardier's 710s in to regular customer service (barring unforeseen late issues)

Siemens win,yey

 

[APUK002]

These will be 717 operated from December 10 at WGC:

2K10 0608
2K13 0624
2K43 0854
2K48 0924
2K50 0938
2K52 0958
2K62 1109
2K66 1139
2K72 1228
2K80 1328
2K84 1358
2K00 1439
2K16 1609
2K18 1628
2K21 1632
2K31 1728
2K36 1758
2K42 1828
2K46 1858
2K52 1943
2K54 1958
2K72 2209
2K74 2222

I am sure I don't need to add a disclaimer that it may be subject to change etc.

Thanks for sharing,is it known when they start to replace Letchworth-moorgate services?

 

[samuelmorris]

Congrats Siemens 717s on beating Bombardier's 710s in to regular customer service (barring unforeseen late issues)

Ordered 7 months later and likely to be in service 5 months or more earlier, so that's a full year quicker than the 710s at this stage if they do enter service in a fortnight's time.

 

[Aictos]

These will be 717 operated from December 10 at WGC:

2K10 0608
2K13 0624
2K43 0854
2K48 0924
2K50 0938
2K52 0958
2K62 1109
2K66 1139
2K72 1228
2K80 1328
2K84 1358
2K00 1439
2K16 1609
2K18 1628
2K21 1632
2K31 1728
2K36 1758
2K42 1828
2K46 1858
2K52 1943
2K54 1958
2K72 2209
2K74 2222

I am sure I don't need to add a disclaimer that it may be subject to change etc.

However they will still show up as Class 313 timing load on sites such as RTT so don't expect Class 717s as they might end up on other workings subject to operational requirements, these workings above are what they are expected to work.

 

[Class315]

Any idea about services on the Hertford loop? Welwyn already gets the 700s

They’ll be intermixed with the services listed above. Although, their are some operational obstacles to resolve prior to 10/12 & some drivers need to do their handling in the NCL with the SDO boards once all are fully installed.

 

[Aictos]

They’ll be intermixed with the services listed above. Although, their are some operational obstacles to resolve prior to 10/12 & some drivers need to do their handling in the NCL with the SDO boards once all are fully installed.

Indeed and as GTR have stated as far as they're aware the information to which services will go over to Class 717 operation has not yet been made clear to them so until there's more concrete evidence of what services will go over to Class 717 operation, it's just guesswork at this time.

As to stopping at stations between Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City/Stevenage via Hertford North, as they're 6 car fixed formation trains - are they stopping at the 6 car Class 313 markers or have they had to adjust the stopping positions?