GN Class 717

[sprunt]

What are the differences between units that dispatchers need training in? From my (obviously incorrect) layman's perspective, it just looks like a case of making sure people are standing back and away from the doors which I would have thought was the broadly similar for all classes - what am I missing?

 

[Fred26]

What are the differences between units that dispatchers need training in? From my (obviously incorrect) layman's perspective, it just looks like a case of making sure people are standing back and away from the doors which I would have thought was the broadly similar for all classes - what am I missing?

It's not about the dispatch process (which will be self-dispatch at most places, and is yet to be agreed at others, incidentally), but about familiarisation of the units - termination process, disabled space, ramp, emergency equipment, making PAs... all of which are different to the current 313s.

 

[Aictos]

It's not about the dispatch process (which will be self-dispatch at most places, and is yet to be agreed at others, incidentally), but about familiarisation of the units - termination process, disabled space, ramp, emergency equipment, making PAs... all of which are different to the current 313s.

And of course no doubt that the old BR ramps that were used with the Class 313s cannot be used with the Class 717s so learning how to safely use one is important.

As to using the PA, I thought that would only be used by drivers not dispatchers?

 

[jon0844]

Dispatchers won't be in the cabs of 717s as they are with 700s (when assisting with a termination). It's just too cramped.

As said above, eventually the 717s will self-dispatch everywhere, but they'll be terminated and shut down by platform staff.. and there will be assists. Every door has a notch for a 700 ramp, unlike the 700s that only have notches for ramps in the disabled section - but wheelchairs should be boarded in the disabled section for obvious reasons. The position of the onboard ramp and safety equipment must also be known and how to shut the doors (one by one, unlike the 700s where you lock everything and walk through). There are no guards panels on the 717s, so no way to contact the driver or do a PA from within the train itself.

 

[sprunt]

Thanks for the responses.

 

[philjo]

I noticed that the 717 stop boards have appeared on the platforms at Letchworth. (Same position as the RLU/3/4/6/8 stopping point)

 

[03_179]

Hi all,

717004 and 717009 moved from Hornsey to Bedford on 16/11/2018

There are four other units at Cricklewood I hear. Can anyone let me know the dates they went over there please/

Also What route did they take, via upper Holloway or via St Pancras and reversed?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Supercoss]

004 and 009 moved from Cricklewood early on 17th to Bedford Jowett
Leaving just two class 717 at Cricklewood
The original move from Hornsey to Cricklewood was 24/10/18 via (Regents) Canal Tunnel reversing at St Pancras Low level, tripcock arms removed prior to ‘off route’ transfer
Upper Holloway route to Thameslink network not electrified (yet)

 

[03_179]

004 and 009 moved from Cricklewood early on 17th to Bedford Jowett
Leaving just two class 717 at Cricklewood
The original move from Hornsey to Cricklewood was 24/10/18 via (Regents) Canal Tunnel reversing at St Pancras Low level, tripcock arms removed prior to ‘off route’ transfer
Upper Holloway route to Thameslink network not electrified (yet)

Thanks

 

[mongoose]

I saw the poster announcing the 717s at Potters Bar. It says that the new trains are "longer". Is that actually true? They are all 6-car, but I would have thought that the majority of peak hour commuters already catch 6-car 313s. Is the poster a tiny bit misleading?

 

[twpsaesneg]

I saw the poster announcing the 717s at Potters Bar. It says that the new trains are "longer". Is that actually true? They are all 6-car, but I would have thought that the majority of peak hour commuters already catch 6-car 313s. Is the poster a tiny bit misleading?

According to Wiki, a Class 717 is 14mm longer than 2x Class 313's

 

[717001]

I saw the poster announcing the 717s at Potters Bar. It says that the new trains are "longer". Is that actually true? They are all 6-car, but I would have thought that the majority of peak hour commuters already catch 6-car 313s. Is the poster a tiny bit misleading?

Er... Yes!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Also, with a 717 you're getting the space back that would be occupied by the middle cabs on a 313 pair. It's still a little cheeky, but they're not exactly wrong.

 

[jon0844]

You are getting a LOT more room without the middle cabs, the huge void behind each cab, and the open gangway. Perhaps the poster should have said bigger though.

 

[mongoose]

It's clear to us that there will be more space and higher capacity, but to actually say longer? - I would think that your average commuter would expect more cars when you say something like that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Because of the revised stopping position in the deep level stations the front is shorter, but the back is longer and the doors won’t open...

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The deep-level part of the route was to be renamed Shortlands, until someone pointed out the potential confusion with the station of the same name

 

[bramling]

You are getting a LOT more room without the middle cabs, the huge void behind each cab, and the open gangway. Perhaps the poster should have said bigger though.

Hmm, I wouldn’t have called it a lot of space. No doubt it depends on one’s definition of a lot, but to me eight cars vice four cars is a lot of extra room, not a couple of missing cabs!

If they wanted to put some extra capacity to Hertford they should send some 8-car 700s down there off the Thameslink network and return something like Peterborough to a 365 service to Kings Cross. At least then no one would be getting gaps measured in hours when the slightest little thing goes wrong on Thameslink.

 

[Hadders]

If they wanted to put some extra capacity to Hertford they should send some 8-car 700s down there off the Thameslink network and return something like Peterborough to a 365 service to Kings Cross. At least then no one would be getting gaps measured in hours when the slightest little thing goes wrong on Thameslink.

Where's the like button.

 

[717001]

May have been another delivery? Looked to be the haulage units at Ferme Park this morning.

 

[Aictos]

Hmm, I wouldn’t have called it a lot of space. No doubt it depends on one’s definition of a lot, but to me eight cars vice four cars is a lot of extra room, not a couple of missing cabs!

If they wanted to put some extra capacity to Hertford they should send some 8-car 700s down there off the Thameslink network and return something like Peterborough to a 365 service to Kings Cross. At least then no one would be getting gaps measured in hours when the slightest little thing goes wrong on Thameslink.

A daft suggestion for the reason you've overlooked the fact that stations between Harringay and Watton At Stone can only take 6 car trains so unless you're suggesting that platforms get lengthened (possible but certainly difficult at Hertford with pointwork at the south end and the road bridge at the north end) or taking away these peak time crowd busters on the Welwyn route or use SDO than its just a fantasy.

In any case you have not explained how you would ensure the infrastructure could take 8 car trains on the Hertford Loop.

Plus you're removing direct trains to Moorgate which will go down like a lead balloon with Hertford Loop users just so you can have 365s back.

Me thinks you have not thought this though properly and looking at it as always though rose tinted glasses.

 

[Class315]

Some infrastructure changes have taken place on The Northern City Line in preparation for the 717 introduction.

On the down road at Drayton Park, Just ahead of K361 a SDO5 stop car mark has been installed, Another SDO5 stop car mark has been installed on the up road at Old Street ahead of K344. Another installation has seen the buffer stops on Platform 9 at Moorgate modified with the affixed red buffer stop on the tunnel mouth removed, the actual buffer stops moved further in the tunnel bore, a 717 stop car within the tunnel bore. A new 313 Stop marker has been affixed to the tunnel mouth.

 

[bramling]

A daft suggestion for the reason you've overlooked the fact that stations between Harringay and Watton At Stone can only take 6 car trains so unless you're suggesting that platforms get lengthened (possible but certainly difficult at Hertford with pointwork at the south end and the road bridge at the north end) or taking away these peak time crowd busters on the Welwyn route or use SDO than its just a fantasy.

In any case you have not explained how you would ensure the infrastructure could take 8 car trains on the Hertford Loop.

Plus you're removing direct trains to Moorgate which will go down like a lead balloon with Hertford Loop users just so you can have 365s back.

Me thinks you have not thought this though properly and looking at it as always though rose tinted glasses.

It’s quite simple. Extend those platforms which can easily be extended. SDO at the rest. Reversal via Langley Junction so avoiding the need to use Hertford bay. And superimpose the service on top of the Moorgate service as a means of providing extra capacity.

Yes, you’re right, there’s an element of wishful thinking to it. However if it were combined with putting the displaced 12-car 700s onto Luton-Rainham (a route which I believe is more-or-less 12-car capable already and crying out for extra capacity in places), the displaced 8-cars could then run to Watton-at-Stone. The snag is what happens to the Horsham to London service, but even Horsham to Luton (12 cars) and Rainham to Watton (8 cars) would offer an improvement.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe one day there can be all that upgrade work. Perhaps the 717s can have another coach or two inserted. But for now, the space increase is from losing the middle gap, the dead space, and 2+2 seating with more open vestibules. Yes, less seats but absolutely and unquestionably more room to move people in the peaks.

Off peak, there is ample seating.

I can't see many people complaining, as the change from a 313 to 717 is significantly different to a 365 to 700.

 

[Fred26]

Maybe one day there can be all that upgrade work. Perhaps the 717s can have another coach or two inserted. But for now, the space increase is from losing the middle gap, the dead space, and 2+2 seating with more open vestibules. Yes, less seats but absolutely and unquestionably more room to move people in the peaks.

Off peak, there is ample seating.

I can't see many people complaining, as the change from a 313 to 717 is significantly different to a 365 to 700.

Quite. I think people at the country ends with still get a seat, and those that stand now will still be standing, but with more space. The losers will be those in the middle, perhaps Gordon Hill, New Barnet area, where they'll find it difficult to get a seat at the moment, but that may become impossible with the new fleet. However, the overall gain in space makes these units a vast improvement on what we have now.
One thing I wish they'd done is put in a toilet. I know they're inner suburban units, but if you're traveling from Watton-at-Stone you've got nearly an hour with no alternative. I don't think that's acceptable, and really one disabled toilet wouldn't have taken that much space from the overall capacity and the trains would still be better (in terms of space) than a 313.

 

[BowesRanger]

I will probably be less likely to get a seat in the morning, but the fact is I will be much more likely to get on, and not be wedged against a door.

Plus reliability means less chance of a broken down train in the tunnels, throwing the service into chaos (a la yesterday morning)

All in all it's a massive improvement that can't come soon enough

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

One thing I wish they'd done is put in a toilet. I know they're inner suburban units, but if you're traveling from Watton-at-Stone you've got nearly an hour with no alternative. I don't think that's acceptable, and really one disabled toilet wouldn't have taken that much space from the overall capacity and the trains would still be better (in terms of space) than a 313.

There's a practicality aspect to installing a toilet, besides the loss of space. The retention tank needs to be drained, the water tank needs to be refilled and soap may need to be topped up intra-day. I'm not sure where it's done on Thameslink (I've seen little maintenance vehicles at Liverpool Street and KX), but you cannot do it at Moorgate and I doubt the various terminus stations on the inners are good options either - they're generally not that spacious, and trains in the peaks have tight turnaround times. I guess you could cycle trains in and out of depots more, but that may require more trains (which are expensive) and could create pathing issues.
Better I think to invest in behind-barriers station toilets at key stations that are staffed (e.g. Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park, Palmers Green, Gordon Hill, Potters Bar etc.) and ensure they're open for use.

 

[jon0844]

The training manual does say a toilet can be retrofitted, but besides the loss in space, there is indeed the question of where to refill/empty the toilet*. Currently many 700s are going around without water and toilets locked out as a result. It isn't massively uncommon to have just one out of three toilets working (and in my experience the disabled one is more likely to be out, which impacts those who can't use a normal sized one).

But at least the train has the option of getting a toilet one day. Perhaps as pressure mounts on accessibility and dealing with various health conditions that make some people need a toilet frequently, the DfT might one day decide it is a worthy investment.

* It would almost certainly need maintenance more often than a 700 as only one toilet means it would get used more than with usage spread over three or four toilets.

 

[bramling]

The training manual does say a toilet can be retrofitted, but besides the loss in space, there is indeed the question of where to refill/empty the toilet*. Currently many 700s are going around without water and toilets locked out as a result. It isn't massively uncommon to have just one out of three toilets working (and in my experience the disabled one is more likely to be out, which impacts those who can't use a normal sized one).

But at least the train has the option of getting a toilet one day. Perhaps as pressure mounts on accessibility and dealing with various health conditions that make some people need a toilet frequently, the DfT might one day decide it is a worthy investment.

* It would almost certainly need maintenance more often than a 700 as only one toilet means it would get used more than with usage spread over three or four toilets.

For the time being, given the chronic overcrowding on the Hertford service in particular at peak times, and little prospect of any massive capacity increase, I think the decision to omit a toilet is the right one. Naturally if the situation changes in the future then this can be revisited.

 

[jon0844]

The lack of toilet facilities does of course not automatically stop people from going to the toilet on a 717.