GN Class 717

[Failed Unit]

Surely these make a DC/AC stop at Drayton Park?

They do. But they just won’t open the doors, just like they do when Arsenal are at home.

 

[Kite159]

I must admit SDO is concerning. Maybe works on the tube which have more doors per coach. But knowing how overcrowded these services get watch dwell times increase. At least the rear doors will be quiet as customers get to know if they use them they are not getting off at the station they need.

The regulars will soon know that the rear set of doors won't open at Highbury, like the 378s on the East London Line where a couple stations have SDO with the rearmost door remaining closed.

The only folk which might get caught out at non-regulars not listening to the announcements, but if they overcarry to the next station it isn't going to be the end of the world due to the frequent services.

 

[jon0844]

The screens make it pretty clear when the doors aren't going to open in part of the train, as I assume it will be the same as the 700s. No way people aren't going to notice!

 

[Failed Unit]

The screens make it pretty clear when the doors aren't going to open in part of the train, as I assume it will be the same as the 700s. No way people aren't going to notice!

Maybe but if you can’t move forward because of the overcrowding, you are not getting off. As others have said the regular passengers will soon work out which door to avoid.

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[bramling]

Maybe but if you can’t move forward because of the overcrowding, you are not getting off. As others have said the regular passengers will soon work out which door to avoid.

I really don’t think SDO will be a major problem on the NCL. It’s the stereotypical commuter railway, so regulars will get used to it. There might just be a slight issue on the very rare occasions when an off-peak train turns up crush loaded for whatever reason.

At the end of the day there’s not much alternative. If it’s down to signal sighting then it would have been the same no matter what type of train was being introduced. Naturally signalling modifications *may* have been possible in advance, if this is the issue, but for all we know this may already have been looked at. If the line is being resignalled soon the it probably wouldn’t have been a good use of money anyway.

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Class315]

The screens make it pretty clear when the doors aren't going to open in part of the train, as I assume it will be the same as the 700s. No way people aren't going to notice!

I’d also imagine that Short platform announcements will be added to stations affected by the SDO, as heard when serving the village stations and Hendon on TL route.

And additional dwell time will be added to those stations, as at present in the rush hour 30 seconds is given at Highbury on the down road in the rush hour; with one pan vice two less time will be needed at Drayton Park I’d imagine.

 

[Aictos]

Must admit it does seem a strange way of doing it. I can understand the desire for a "soft" launch, but surely running non-stop from end to end is asking for problems on a route where people are used to trains calling at most stations, especially the tunnel ones?!

Seems like it's asking for trouble to me, but then again this is GTR, the operator who chose the strangest and worst possible place to put first class on the 387s!

My point exactly!

 

[bramling]

Signal sighting IS the issue but all the cabling is life expired and NR daren't touch it. Have been told we'll be stopping short and using SDO until it's ripped out and replaced, which considering it was first touted years ago is unlikely to happen soon.

Thanks for clarifying. So the situation would likely have arisen no matter what type of new train was chosen. I don’t see the benefit in going for a short train just for an interim issue, assuming that an off-the-shelf such short train would have been readily procurable anyway.

 

[hwl]

Maybe but if you can’t move forward because of the overcrowding, you are not getting off. As others have said the regular passengers will soon work out which door to avoid.

There were minimal issues at the problem stations when the ELL went 5 car so I can't see why the NCL is any different.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks for clarifying. So the situation would likely have arisen no matter what type of new train was chosen. I don’t see the benefit in going for a short train just for an interim issue, assuming that an off-the-shelf such short train would have been readily procurable anyway.

If the next generation signalling removes the issue then it really is the best solution. A temporary measure that really won't impact many people anyway.

It would be rather mad to have a shorter train that reduces capacity at every station for the whole life of the train.

 

[Julian G]

If the services are running as Moorgate-Gordon Hill non-stop, then surely they shouldn’t be shown as stations like Finsbury Park as the 14:49 service to Gordon Hill for example.

 

[Aictos]

If the services are running as Moorgate-Gordon Hill non-stop, then surely they shouldn’t be shown as stations like Finsbury Park as the 14:49 service to Gordon Hill for example.

They should be shown as "Stand clear, non stop train approaching" or similar on the station CIS screens but then again as this is GTR...

 

[simple simon]

717s are in passenger service on Fridays only, at the moment. Moorgate-Gordon Hill non-stop. Though that could change as the days pass.

Moorgate?

RTT only shows Finsbury Pk - Gordon Hill
(on Fridays, on the northbound working which is listed as a service in passenger service)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X24875/2018/10/26/advanced

Please advise me of the time it departs from Moorgate.

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I was at Finsbury Park yesterday and it definitely was publicised as a passenger service calling at many stations... however it ran through without stopping. In the image below I include an enlargement of the next train display on the bottom left corner.

 

[Aictos]

Then it was a issue with the CIS screens as it shouldn't be advertising a stopping service for that platform if the train isn't stopping there and should have been reported by staff to control.

As a example a few times Platform 3 at Hertford North over the years has had the enlightenment of having the Stevenage services advertised as departing from that platform; for these of you who aren't aware of the issue here, Platform 3 is a bay platform which can only serve London bound services.

 

[Fred26]

Moorgate?

RTT only shows Finsbury Pk - Gordon Hill
(on Fridays, on the northbound working which is listed as a service in passenger service)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X24875/2018/10/26/advanced

Please advise me of the time it departs from Moorgate.

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I was at Finsbury Park yesterday and it definitely was publicised as a passenger service calling at many stations... however it ran through without stopping. In the image below I include an enlargement of the next train display on the bottom left corner.

Yes.

It's 1035 from Moorgate y

Then it was a issue with the CIS screens as it shouldn't be advertising a stopping service for that platform if the train isn't stopping there and should have been reported by staff to control.

As a example a few times Platform 3 at Hertford North over the years has had the enlightenment of having the Stevenage services advertised as departing from that platform; for these of you who aren't aware of the issue here, Platform 3 is a bay platform which can only serve London bound services.

Okay. For all you know it was reported.

 

[Class315]

Then it was a issue with the CIS screens as it shouldn't be advertising a stopping service for that platform if the train isn't stopping there and should have been reported by staff to control.

As a example a few times Platform 3 at Hertford North over the years has had the enlightenment of having the Stevenage services advertised as departing from that platform; for these of you who aren't aware of the issue here, Platform 3 is a bay platform which can only serve London bound services.

It is reported to control & they often report on tyrell check that 2G92 & 2G96 are test trains and not ran in passenger service.

Perhaps, whoever was manning the CIS at TBROC did not realise the error that was displayed on the boards when in fact they shouldn’t be displayed.

 

[Aictos]

Okay. For all you know it was reported.

Indeed I'm just pointing out that when the screens are displaying wrong information then you guys DO report it.

 

[jon0844]

The screens will show 2xxx headcodes if they're entered into the system. They should be 3xxx or 5xxx to not show, or show 'train may not stop here'.

Edit: Seeing from above, the alternative is to make sure the CIS team at Three Bridges is aware and deletes the service from the screens.. but that is surely an obvious way to mess things up, especially if it has to be done manually every day.

Why not just show it as ECS? Or is that because they carry staff for training and the signaller would need to know, in the event of an incident, that there is more than just a driver on the train?

 

[Fred26]

Indeed I'm just pointing out that when the screens are displaying wrong information then you guys DO report it.

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound aggressive.

 

[Doomotron]

The screens will show 2xxx headcodes if they're entered into the system. They should be 3xxx or 5xxx to not show, or show 'train may not stop here'.

Wait, do some screens show headcodes?

 

[jon0844]

Wait, do some screens show headcodes?

No, but a platform screen won't show the ECS moves unless set to do so (such as showing a train empty to depot or something). If it is set up as a 2nnn service then the screen will assume it's a public service. If the service has booked stops, then it won't know that it's a test service and the doors won't actually be released.

Trains can be manually removed on an adhoc basis, but unless it's a requirement because of it carrying people, I'd have thought a 3 or 5xxx code would sort the problem.

 

[Aictos]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound aggressive.

You didn't come across aggressive, I just thought I point out what happens when the CIS screens display wrong info so don't worry about it.

What is it like now they've closed Kings Cross SDC and transferred everyone to the other end of the country ie Three Bridges?

 

[Fred26]

You didn't come across aggressive, I just thought I point out what happens when the CIS screens display wrong info so don't worry about it.

What is it like now they've closed Kings Cross SDC and transferred everyone to the other end of the country ie Three Bridges?

Part of the problem is that most of the SDC staff either left the company or took other jobs. I don't know where the new batch came from or what their experience is, but their geography of the GN isn't great, and their ability to forsee disruption based on current events is quite naïve. However, as the timetable has become more stable, so they've improved. It seems to me that they've had to learn on the job, which is a shame, because the job was bloody awful for a good couple of months.
Obviously it's still not good, but things are better than they were.

 

[Fred26]

No, but a platform screen won't show the ECS moves unless set to do so (such as showing a train empty to depot or something). If it is set up as a 2nnn service then the screen will assume it's a public service. If the service has booked stops, then it won't know that it's a test service and the doors won't actually be released.

Trains can be manually removed on an adhoc basis, but unless it's a requirement because of it carrying people, I'd have thought a 3 or 5xxx code would sort the problem.

Just to add to the above, basically, the test 717 running during the day is a class 5 ECS move, except on Fridays when it becomes a class 2. The reason for this is a contractual agreement to run the trains in service before a certain point. The trains are supposed to run all stops from Moorgate to Finsbury Park, then Winchmore Hill, Palmer's Green, Enfield Chase and Gordon Hill. However, every stop is removed and the service runs non-stop Moorgate to Gordon Hill. Probably because testing hasn't finished at those stations.
Any of the above could change at any time, and it surely will, the longer these units are about.

 

[387star]

Ridiculously uninspiring livery

 

[Aictos]

Ridiculously uninspiring livery

That's because it's DfT inspired, the idea is the brand stays the same even when the actual operator changes so saves time and money when operators change.

Take the Great Western Railway brand, you could have Arriva run it tomorrow and they still have to use the existing brand which is as it ought to be, the only tiny thing that the DfT hasn't figured out and what Transport Scotland actually has is there should be a label stating who is operating the brand ie Great Western operated by Arriva etc....

 

[AlexNL]

, the only tiny thing that the DfT hasn't figured out and what Transport Scotland actually has is there should be a label stating who is operating the brand ie Great Western operated by Arriva etc....

Doesn't the GWR livery have a tiny "A FirstGroup Company" somewhere on each vehicle?

 

[APUK002]

Doesn't the GWR livery have a tiny "A FirstGroup Company" somewhere on each vehicle?

Yes they do,I’ve seen it on the powercars