GN Class 717

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[DenmarkRail]

Yes and colleagues are involved in the ongoing night testing. Regardless of what "family" 717s are from you're forgetting these things were ordered by GTR - and the loading system, option for TfL info and double sockets weren't included in the spec. Totally stupid and short sighted, but what else would you expect from GTR?

The 717s have the same TfL info as the 700 trains. That’s a fact.

 

[jon0844]

Wi-Fi on the whole fleet will probably be considered more valuable than a power socket. People aren't so likely to need to charge on their morning commute if they remembered to charge overnight and going home it's less vital. Portable power banks are more convenient for many people anyway (less wires to get tangled).

The lack of tables, toilets and other creature comforts are to be expected for what's almost like a tube service these days. It's quite amazing they didn't get longitudinal seating, which I suppose could happen in a refit 20 years down the line if there's enough demand?

 

[BlyRF]

While we are having this debate regarding seating, space and convince features, have there actually been any more news regarding more deliveries and testing?

Knowing that these trains were supposed to be in service this mouth but obviously now likely start in September or October.

 

[387star]

377/6s are not just used for inner suburbans though, they are also used for the long distances to Brighton and in some cases, Horsham and East Grinstead.

So Tatt corner and Caterham or Epsom not metro?

 

[387star]

Notwithstanding the seats being slightly too near the wall (and the intrusive heating ducts) the 700s are perfectly fine metro trains, which is what the 717s are. Off topic, but maybe they needed 2 separate interior layouts like they used to have with the 319s

The 3+2 seating on 377s is right up agsinst the wall but the duct is lesa intrusive

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Aictos]

It probably won't be a big loss, considering how they never work in the Class 700s.

I disagree; every Class 700 that I've been on this system has worked with no issues, maybe you just aren't lucky?

 

[jon0844]

I disagree; every Class 700 that I've been on this system has worked with no issues, maybe you just aren't lucky?

It's disabled when trains are in the core isn't it? Otherwise I've always seen it working. I think the only 'issue' is that it can't show first/standard as being any different loading wise. First could be empty and standard rammed and it wouldn't show the difference.

I am not sure people take much notice anyway. I thought early on that there was a plan to show the information on the platform too as the train arrived? Then you'd have a better idea of where to board. Commuters may now have the confidence to walk through the train, but I seldom see anyone else do it (at least not very far) so you'll still get a train that's heavily loaded in the centre or one end depending on where the train is and going.

With 700s relatively new on the GN side, people still board as they always did and don't make full use of the train. No doubt moaning they had to stand when rear coaches (including the declassified first class) are near empty. On the TL side the rear coach is usually first to fill!

 

[Doomotron]

I disagree; every Class 700 that I've been on this system has worked with no issues, maybe you just aren't lucky?

It's disabled when trains are in the core isn't it? Otherwise I've always seen it working. I think the only 'issue' is that it can't show first/standard as being any different loading wise. First could be empty and standard rammed and it wouldn't show the difference.

I've only been on them in the core. That must be why. Actually, to be honest, I've only been on them twice. I just saw someone write that they rarely worked so I took their word for it because I wouldn't know better.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe wasn't so wise to write '....they never work in the Class 700s.' then, based on two trips and hearsay!

 

[Fred26]

It's disabled when trains are in the core isn't it? Otherwise I've always seen it working. I think the only 'issue' is that it can't show first/standard as being any different loading wise. First could be empty and standard rammed and it wouldn't show the difference.

I am not sure people take much notice anyway. I thought early on that there was a plan to show the information on the platform too as the train arrived? Then you'd have a better idea of where to board. Commuters may now have the confidence to walk through the train, but I seldom see anyone else do it (at least not very far) so you'll still get a train that's heavily loaded in the centre or one end depending on where the train is and going.

With 700s relatively new on the GN side, people still board as they always did and don't make full use of the train. No doubt moaning they had to stand when rear coaches (including the declassified first class) are near empty. On the TL side the rear coach is usually first to fill!

It was the plan to show loading information on the platform CIS, I don't know whether it still is, but I believe it was a commitment, so it should still happen.

 

[KC1]

So Tatt corner and Caterham or Epsom not metro?

Yes but the 377/6 is a shared resource used on both distance and metros hence the seat tables. The 717s are exclusive to that line and won’t be used on long distance services.

 

[Aictos]

Unit still out on testing but not able to go on NCL currently.

Wrong as my source at GTR has confirmed that testing is still ongoing everywhere at present as it's only been a few weeks that in itself to me includes the NCL.

Just one point re no. 3. An article in one of the mags (Today's Railways I think) states that loadings information would not be displayed on the 717s.

Actually that article may be wrong as I asked a source at GTR about this and their reply was simply Yes as far as they are aware the 717s WILL have the same customer information as the 700s be it loading or TfL and that's something I'm willing to take to the bank.

 

[Class315]

717008 has been testing Hornsey via Kings Cross - Connington Junction the last few nights; It was stabled on 13 road at Hornsey. They've not traversed in/out of Moorgate since they ran into difficulty on their inaugural trips.

 

[Fred26]

No, they're not going to Moorgate until the engineers have fixed the tripcock problem.

 

[BowesRanger]

No, they're not going to Moorgate until the engineers have fixed the tripcock problem.

What is the tripcock problem? Sorry if this has been explained, but what do the 717s do that 313s don't?

*I ask as a commuter rather than a railway expert

 

[Fred26]

What is the tripcock problem? Sorry if this has been explained, but what do the 717s do that 313s don't?

*I ask as a commuter rather than a railway expert

I'm not 100% certain myself. It's to do with the way it's setup on the 717s. The technicalities are beyond me.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not 100% certain myself. It's to do with the way it's setup on the 717s. The technicalities are beyond me.

It will almost certainly have to be a specific problem with the way it has to be supported by the “inside frame” bogie. At the same time they also have to carry the shoe gear differently to a traditional bogie, but that ought probably to be the same hardware as a 700.

 

[Fred26]

It will almost certainly have to be a specific problem with the way it has to be supported by the “inside frame” bogie. At the same time they also have to carry the shoe gear differently to a traditional bogie, but that ought probably to be the same hardware as a 700.

Actually, I was speaking to a driver about the second part. The tripcock on the 717 is more sophisticated than on the 700s. He told me that when the tripcocks are lowered on 700s and stay lowered, but on the 717s they can be raised and lowered as the driver likes. A 700 driver on here will be able to explain better than I ever can though.

 

[TFN]

Do you mean shoegears rather than tripcocks? The 700 doesn't have a tripcock.

It's always amusing to see a plastic bag or a bottle wedged in the shoegear on a 700. It had a weird design, I always wondered why they never had the ability to raise (I guess it's just one more thing that can break).

Actually, I was speaking to a driver about the second part. The tripcock on the 717 is more sophisticated than on the 700s. He told me that when the tripcocks are lowered on 700s and stay lowered, but on the 717s they can be raised and lowered as the driver likes. A 700 driver on here will be able to explain better than I ever can though.

 

[Fred26]

Do you mean shoegears rather than tripcocks? The 700 doesn't have a tripcock.

It's always amusing to see a plastic bag or a bottle wedged in the shoegear on a 700. It had a weird design, I always wondered why they never had the ability to raise (I guess it's just one more thing that can break).

Probably, I suppose. Showing myself up now for my lack of technical knowledge!

 

[717001]

717008 has been testing Hornsey via Kings Cross - Connington Junction the last few nights; It was stabled on 13 road at Hornsey. They've not traversed in/out of Moorgate since they ran into difficulty on their inaugural trips.

Glad to see there is progress - found them on realtraintimes but they are currently showing as class 317 rather than 717. Think something similar happened on the original Moorgate journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean shoegears rather than tripcocks? The 700 doesn't have a tripcock.

It's always amusing to see a plastic bag or a bottle wedged in the shoegear on a 700. It had a weird design, I always wondered why they never had the ability to raise (I guess it's just one more thing that can break).

Back in the early days of the 700 thread it was suggested that it was deemed a possible point of failure so they’d be left permanently lowered and the infrastructure cleared for them. AIUI they were manually tied up for delivery from Germany.

 

[swt_passenger]

Glad to see there is progress - found them on realtraintimes but they are currently showing as class 317 rather than 717. Think something similar happened on the original Moorgate journeys.

Has any “new class number” ever appeared on RTT for initial test purposes? I don’t think it’s particularly noteworthy, as far as I can see use of an existing (but similar) type for initial timings is absolutely normal...

 

[samuelmorris]

No as far as I know the 'timed for' is only updated when the service is actually timetabled with the relevant class in mind. For a test run I'm not sure they'd bother - only when creating services designed solely with the new class in mind would that usually happen (e.g. the Crossrail test services, such that they are post-delay announcement).

 

[swt_passenger]

It was the plan to show loading information on the platform CIS, I don't know whether it still is, but I believe it was a commitment, so it should still happen.

I think the problem is that within the core they expect a massive change round of passengers, eg at Farringdon, so there’s no point in knowing where everyone is standing if they are all about to get off. So its usefulness may vary between directions and time of day, eg not much use at City Thameslink for peak arrivals from either direction.

 

[swt_passenger]

No as far as I know the 'timed for' is only updated when the service is actually timetabled with the relevant class in mind. For a test run I'm not sure they'd bother - only when creating services designed solely with the new class in mind would that usually happen (e.g. the Crossrail test services, such that they are post-delay announcement).

Yes. In fact paths on Crossrail’s own private infrastructure do show up as timed for Class 345. But I think I’m right for the ‘normal’ network.

 

[jon0844]

I think the problem is that within the core they expect a massive change round of passengers, eg at Farringdon, so there’s no point in knowing where everyone is standing if they are all about to get off. So its usefulness may vary between directions and time of day, eg not much use at City Thameslink for peak arrivals from either direction.

That's a very good point.

Perhaps better for stations outside London where it will matter at times that it's mostly people wanting to get on a train.

 

[choochoochoo]

How will the aircon work in the NCL ? I thought aircon in tunnels (especially old ones) was tricky as there is really nowhere to dump heat. Isn't this why most of the underground doesn't have aircon ?

Is it like the circle/HC and met line in that they are above ground with a cool inside for so long they don't need to dump a lot of heat in the relatively shirt time they're in tunnels ?

If the heat is just being dumped into the tunnel air, will that make the NCL stations hotter in the summer ?