GN Class 717

[387star]

The 313s were refurbished by WAGN around 1998-2000 (roughly IIRC), following on from the 317/2s. The main change was the high-backed seats, but there were a few other alterations including passenger door control. Originally they were planned to get carpet, however this idea evidently got dropped before any units were done. For some reason the WAGN refurbishment didn't introduce a new livery, possibly because they were planning a differentiated inner-suburban livery which never happened, so for a few years the 313s ran around in white undercoat, a few units gaining adverts in the process. After a few years the units gained the WAGN plain purple livery, which the 317s also got. Under FCC the 313s gained new seat covers, new lino flooring and external vinyls - which is basically how the units are now, pretty much untouched for approaching a decade.

The 3x 313/1s have a slightly different history in that they had a less extensive refurbishment carried out by Silverlink in the late 1990s which was little more than an internal repaint and changes to grab poles. FCC didn't do much to them apart from repainting, new seat covers and (?) new flooring.

Agreed that the WAGN moquette was rather nice, although it wasn't unique to WAGN as the 16x Connex 365s had it from new as well, so originally it may well have been something chosen by the leasing company - WAGN then using it further in an effort to make their other fleets mimic the 365s (the 317/6 refurbishment was definitely designed to copy the 365 in many respects). Actually IMV the original red and green 365 interior was one of the best ever - very warm and cosy in winter whilst relaxing in summer. Much nicer than what the 365s have now, and IMV preferable to the FCC scheme which always seemed/seems rather dismal and depressing. Not sure why the 313s have always resolutely kept the yellow round the doors, unless perhaps it has something to do with the tunnel running (although why would it as these doors aren't an emergency exit in a Tube tunnel?).

FCC didnt do a lot to 317 and 313s..

That's interesting reading but I was actually referring to the point that the refurb that Pre GTR Southern did on the ex London Overground 313s pretty much made them like new trains, they were a world apart from the London Overground and WAGN/FCC interiors.

And quite surprising I actually do agree with you on the original red and green livery that the 365s used to have, that was the best livery they had period!

It's just a shame that the fleet got dumbed down the way it has I even remember the FCC 317s having carpets though out even in Standard Class until it was decided to do away with them except in 1st.

Back to the 717s though, it be interesting to see what people think of them as compared to the 313s when they finally enter passenger service.

southern 313s are dire in my opinion and not fit for Brighton to Portsmouth services

I am not keen on the seating layout either

 

[bramling]

That's interesting reading but I was actually referring to the point that the refurb that Pre GTR Southern did on the ex London Overground 313s pretty much made them like new trains, they were a world apart from the London Overground and WAGN/FCC interiors.

And quite surprising I actually do agree with you on the original red and green livery that the 365s used to have, that was the best livery they had period!

It's just a shame that the fleet got dumbed down the way it has I even remember the FCC 317s having carpets though out even in Standard Class until it was decided to do away with them except in 1st.

Back to the 717s though, it be interesting to see what people think of them as compared to the 313s when they finally enter passenger service.

Well, here’s a few predictions.

Those who travel mid-distance won’t like them because of the reduction in seats, whilst those from further in will like the extra standing space and air conditioning. For those furthest out (eg Watton at Stone and Hertford) it won’t really make much difference as they’ll always get a seat. The 313s aren’t the most comfortable, but naturally some or many probably won’t like the ironing boards. Overall they will be a bit of a sticking plaster as apart from a bit of extra room they don’t really deliver a step change in capacity on the crowded Hertford loop due to being stuck with 6-car lengths, although the slight increase in fleet size may allow a few extra peak services if paths can be found.

On the Welwyn route I suspect over time people will just turn up and take the first available London service unless they have a specific destination requirement.

We already seem to have established that there’s unlikely to be any timetable speeding up in the foreseeable future.

Personally ... based on the 700s of which the 717s will be similar, I’d prefer 313s, but having said that I don’t travel in the high peak on the Hertford loop where the current experience can be pretty unbearable at times.

 

[Aictos]

FCC didnt do a lot to 317 and 313s..

Well they did give both a minor refurbishment but nothing on the scale as what the 365s got.

southern 313s are dire in my opinion and not fit for Brighton to Portsmouth services

I am not keen on the seating layout either

Compared to what they were like before, the Southern refurbishment actually gave new life to the ex London Overground 313s with passenger improvements such as new flooring and carpet; new seating, improved disabled and cycle space and the fitting of a Passenger Information System. While fleet improvements include the installation of cab air-conditioning, sanding equipment, a 750 V busline, shore supply sockets and the removal of inboard shoegear.

That makes them look quite luxury compared to the GN 313s which don't even have a Passenger Information System and you have to rely on either looking out the window or depend on the driver to make announcements.

Yes I can understand that replacing newish trains ie the 377/3s with the 313s isn't ideal especially on the Brighton to Southampton/Portsmouth Harbour services as they don't have onboard toilets however they usually are diagrammed to operate usually over short distances such as Brighton to Hove/Seaford along with the longer services with the 377s that do run around there.

Remember by Southern introducing 313s on the Coastway routes they ensured with platform lengthening, additional capacity on the highly used suburban routes in South London were to be used using the freed up 377/3s.

Now if say the next Southern franchise decide to take on the SWR 707s and use them on Southern Metro services as 10 car trains, that might well mean the 377/3s being able to return to Coastway services but again that depends on various groups such as potential Southern bidders, South Western Railway, the ROSCO, the DfT etc....

The seating layout is fine anyway as that's just a matter of opinion.

 

[jon0844]

Personally ... based on the 700s of which the 717s will be similar, I’d prefer 313s, but having said that I don’t travel in the high peak on the Hertford loop where the current experience can be pretty unbearable at times.

Like the 700s, this is where the improvements come. Sadly not more luxury but simply the ability to move more people.

The loss of the middle cabs gives a lot more room. The walk through design makes it easier to move around. Wider aisles. Wider doorways. No toilets. No first class. All of this will make a significant difference to the users who are boarding at the stations where a 313 is currently a nightmare to get on in the peak.

Off peak, like a 700, there are loads of seats so less seats won't matter anymore.. besides the lack of first class seating for those who head to the back of the train!

It will be sad to see the end of the 313s from a purely nostalgic point of view, but the 717s are better in pretty much every way. The majority of users in the peak need to get to work and if they also use the tube for onward connections will be used to standing.

 

[717001]

It will also see the end of 3 car trains. That's generally good for capacity, but will remove the ability to run 2 x 3 car services instead of one 6 and a cancellation, if there are fewer units than usual available due to maintenance etc.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Does anyone have any updates on how testing etc is going, please? Seems to have been quiet on that front.

 

[Hadders]

I was reminded this morning of another, functional rather than aesthetic, reason I won't miss 313s - the communications system is terrible. A combination of tinny speakers and how noisy the trains are frequently makes any driver announcements completely inaudible. This morning it was only the "We are now approaching Moorgate where this train terminates..." announcement but there are a number of times when there is disruption, and the announcements telling passengers what is happening are indecipherable.

Arguably this is good. We get constant threads on here about announcement overkill. You might have a different opinion once you start getting constant automated announcements reminding you of the next station, where the train's going, security see it, say it, sorted etc.

 

[jon0844]

Arguably this is good. We get constant threads on here about announcement overkill. You might have a different opinion once you start getting constant automated announcements reminding you of the next station, where the train's going, security see it, say it, sorted etc.

The obvious issue on the 313s is the driver unable to effectively communicate with many or all passengers to inform them of issues during delays, such as skip stopping or diverting to King's Cross etc.

Now trains skip some stops officially, it's even more important. Plus not saying what station you're at causes many issues in the dark (which includes the evening peak in the winter) as people on busy trains might not even know where they are.

For anyone who is visually impaired these trains are not fit for purpose if the PA doesn't work, and even then most drivers don't announce each station stop and may say nothing after the initial safety announcement at the origin station.

 

[BowesRanger]

One thing these new trains won't fix is staff shortages. I mention as today it looks like every 2nd train on the Loop is canceled due to train crew shortage.

Shambles. Presumably because of bank holiday leave?

 

[jon0844]

This will gradually improve as drivers must work x Sundays in y, but unless there's an all-new agreement that drivers, unions and management (and the DfT) can agree to in the future (meaning even more Sunday work), Sunday will always have a reduced service frequency.

 

[Bikeman78]

My understanding from the consultations etc is that the final 2019-20 timetable was designed for the increased acceleration / braking etc of the 717s and the journeys (at least on the WGC side) were timed accordingly. There are planned omissions within that of stops at Haringey and Hornsey or Welham Green and Brookmans Park on certain services. However, in order to run the services with the 313s achieving the required end to end time and avoiding impeding faster services, additional stations have been omitted currently and other alterations made. This primarily impacts New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and Hadley Wood in the morning peak but even Hatfield southbound in the pm peak. Hopefully they'll be able to resolve these issues in May 2019 (December 2018 is looking unlikely).

The King's Cross to Cambridge stoppers are tedious now. They sit at Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City for four minutes. It was faster on a 317. I think the long dwells are more to do with fitting trains in either side of the Thameslink core. The current temporary timetable is the worst of all worlds in the off peak, three trains an hour with 30, or even 45, minute gaps in the service. Why do those trains miss Hatfield? I can't see any reason why they can't depart Welwyn one minute earlier and stop there.

 

[sprunt]

Arguably this is good. We get constant threads on here about announcement overkill. You might have a different opinion once you start getting constant automated announcements reminding you of the next station, where the train's going, security see it, say it, sorted etc.

I'm not saying there aren't enough announcements. I'm saying the ones that are made are inaudible.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not saying there aren't enough announcements. I'm saying the ones that are made are inaudible.

The 'see it, say it...' announcement plays about every 20 minutes (more frequently if it went up to 'red' level) so on most trips you won't hear it too much, if you're not on the train for too long.

 

[APUK002]

5th delivery next week,29th

 

[whoosh]

717s will have faster door opening and closing, so will be quicker at stops as well as between them with their better acceleration. 5 minutes shaved off a Moorgate to Hertford/Welwyn should be possible.

The waste of space with large intermediate cabs in the middle of a 313 six car, will go to use as space for passengers on a 717.

 

[Fred26]

Whereas the 700s have proved quite unpopular with passengers that were/are used to 365s, 387s, 317s, and even 321s, but for those used to 313s, I think the 717s will be a revelation. I think they'll be almost universally liked by those passengers.

 

[717001]

One issue I foresee is that on the 313s it is possible to access and leave any seat without disturbing others and many passengers do enter / exit at intermediate stations. On the 717s the aisle passenger will need to get up to permit entry to / exit from the window seat (as on the 700s). Believe it's partly for this reason that there won't be tables.

 

[adamedwards]

One issue I foresee is that on the 313s it is possible to access and leave any seat without disturbing others and many passengers do enter / exit at intermediate stations. On the 717s the aisle passenger will need to get up to permit entry to / exit from the window seat (as on the 700s). Believe it's partly for this reason that there won't be tables.

In my experience on a packed am train this is not the case as the seat spacing means facing passengers are knee to knee. Also the space between the seats to move up and down the cars is incredibly narrow. I can't wait for the 717s.

 

[Aictos]

In my experience on a packed am train this is not the case as the seat spacing means facing passengers are knee to knee. Also the space between the seats to move up and down the cars is incredibly narrow. I can't wait for the 717s.

I concur, the space between the seats being narrow due to the 2+3 seating that's fitted - if they fitted 2+2 instead there would be more room.

As to passengers being knee to knee, you're not wrong here - least with the 717s they will be a massive improvement on the 313s.

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Doomotron]

Whereas the 700s have proved quite unpopular with passengers that were/are used to 365s, 387s, 317s, and even 321s, but for those used to 313s, I think the 717s will be a revelation. I think they'll be almost universally liked by those passengers.

I think that the problem with the 700s is that it's trying to be a metro train all the time. While I personally like the space in the 700s and find the seats comfortable (let's not start an argument) I feel that just having tables and maybe some thin armrests would massively improve the experience if you're going from, let's say, Brighton to Bedford. They're fine for East Croydon to West Hampstead or Finsbury Park but not further out.

 

[Doomotron]

once they find a single plug socket sticking out between each seat into their legs

They must have some very strange legs then...

no seatback tables

It's an inner suburban train, it's not supposed to have them.

no loading or tube info

I don't know where you found that out but I find that very unlikely considering that the Underground is a common thing along the NCL. As for the loading gauges, they barely work in the 700s so, even if they were put in they probably wouldn't do anything. And anyway, people could use the wide walkthrough gangways to find somewhere else.

all these wide standing areas

*whispers* That's the point. Also, about the lack of grab handles, I've looked at the interior and I don't see what you mean. The aisle can fit about two people in it. These two people can grab onto the handles on the seats or the ones next to the doors, so really it isn't an issue, or at least nowhere near as big as what you're making it sound.

 

[387star]

377/6 have tables and plugs..

 

[Aictos]

Hmmm... well once they find a single plug socket sticking out between each seat into their legs, no seatback tables, no loading or tube info and all these wide standing areas with absolutely nowhere to hold on, I think passengers may change their minds!

A few points to point out:

1. How do you know there will only be a single plug socket between each seat?

For example, the Class 700s which is part of the same family as the Class 717 and the Class 707 has a pair of power sockets between the seats in First Class and they don't stick out at all!

2. No seatback tables, well do you have them on the Class 313s?

No you don't so I don't see why as they're used on Metro services and as their predecessors never had them why their replacements need them at all especially as the rolling stock used in and around London don't have them either.

3. No Loading or Tube info

Have you actually been onboard a Class 700? The onboard systems on them actually give you all this information and as they're part of the same family there is no reason to assume that the
717s will be any different.

4. Wide vestibules with nowhere to hang onto

Again, the 313 vestibules doesn't have anything to hang onto either so I'm not sure what your point is here, the reason the vestibules are wider are simply because they're designed as Metro units from the get go to shift as many people from A to B and by them having this makes them far more spacious inside not forgetting can take more people as well.

5. Passengers might change their minds

Where as that might have been the case on services previously operated with Classes 317s, 321s, 387s and 365s, the 717s are replacing 40 year old EMUs some of which are the oldest on
the UK network so I doubt very much that when faced with a run down train with no customer
information systems, no power plugs and cramp seating or a brand new modern train with the
latest customer information systems, power plugs, decent seating and the ability to speed up
services with the increased acceleration of the new trains, passengers are more likely to go with
the latter especially as the 717s are a massive investment for GN Metro.

 

[KC1]

Duplicate post.

 

[KC1]

377/6 have tables and plugs..

377/6s are not just used for inner suburbans though, they are also used for the long distances to Brighton and in some cases, Horsham and East Grinstead.

 

[transmanche]

Hmmm... well once they find a single plug socket sticking out between each seat into their legs, no seatback tables, no loading or tube info and all these wide standing areas with absolutely nowhere to hold on, I think passengers may change their minds!

Being as the 313s have no plug sockets, no seatback tables, no loading info and no tube info, then merely the presence of a plug socket is an improvement!

Similar units to the 313s (e.g. Merseyrail's 507s/508s and SWT's conversion of the 455s) were changed from 3+2 to 2+2 seating with wide standing areas - and were greatly improved by the change.

 

[Goldfish62]

A few points to point out:

1. How do you know there will only be a single plug socket between each seat?

For example, the Class 700s which is part of the same family as the Class 717 and the Class 707 has a pair of power sockets between the seats in First Class and they don't stick out at all!

2. No seatback tables, well do you have them on the Class 313s?

No you don't so I don't see why as they're used on Metro services and as their predecessors never had them why their replacements need them at all especially as the rolling stock used in and around London don't have them either.

3. No Loading or Tube info

Have you actually been onboard a Class 700? The onboard systems on them actually give you all this information and as they're part of the same family there is no reason to assume that the
717s will be any different.

4. Wide vestibules with nowhere to hang onto

Again, the 313 vestibules doesn't have anything to hang onto either so I'm not sure what your point is here, the reason the vestibules are wider are simply because they're designed as Metro units from the get go to shift as many people from A to B and by them having this makes them far more spacious inside not forgetting can take more people as well.

5. Passengers might change their minds

Where as that might have been the case on services previously operated with Classes 317s, 321s, 387s and 365s, the 717s are replacing 40 year old EMUs some of which are the oldest on
the UK network so I doubt very much that when faced with a run down train with no customer
information systems, no power plugs and cramp seating or a brand new modern train with the
latest customer information systems, power plugs, decent seating and the ability to speed up
services with the increased acceleration of the new trains, passengers are more likely to go with
the latter especially as the 717s are a massive investment for GN Metro.

Just one point re no. 3. An article in one of the mags (Today's Railways I think) states that loadings information would not be displayed on the 717s.

 

[Doomotron]

Just one point re no. 3. An article in one of the mags (Today's Railways I think) states that loadings information would not be displayed on the 717s.

It probably won't be a big loss, considering how they never work in the Class 700s.

 

[Mikey C]

I think that the problem with the 700s is that it's trying to be a metro train all the time. While I personally like the space in the 700s and find the seats comfortable (let's not start an argument) I feel that just having tables and maybe some thin armrests would massively improve the experience if you're going from, let's say, Brighton to Bedford. They're fine for East Croydon to West Hampstead or Finsbury Park but not further out.

Notwithstanding the seats being slightly too near the wall (and the intrusive heating ducts) the 700s are perfectly fine metro trains, which is what the 717s are. Off topic, but maybe they needed 2 separate interior layouts like they used to have with the 319s