GN Class 717

[DenmarkRail]

Maintenance isn't a problem, but upgrades are proving tricky.

I wouldn't even put money on TfL retaining the 717 fleet if they got hold of the NCL. I'm guessing they'd want a coherant fleet, so more Aventras... I hope not though. I hope it never becomes Overground...

 

[Domh245]

I wouldn't even put money on TfL retaining the 717 fleet if they got hold of the NCL. I'm guessing they'd want a coherant fleet, so more Aventras... I hope not though. I hope it never becomes Overground...

Given TfL's current financial situation, I'm doubtful that they would just replace a brand new fleet on a whim. If they wanted a truly coherent fleet, they'd be getting rid of the 378s and replacing them with Aventras - the fact that they aren't should be enough to realise that they aren't gunning for a consistent fleet above all else. Additionally, the current Aventras do not have an emergency door on them, so couldn't be used, the 378s do - but they are needed for ELL services and are only 5 cars long.

What specific points turn you against Overground operatorship? In many respects it is very much like LO already!

 

[rebmcr]

I wouldn't even put money on TfL retaining the 717 fleet if they got hold of the NCL. I'm guessing they'd want a coherant fleet, so more Aventras... I hope not though. I hope it never becomes Overground...

The safety regulations of the NCL probably mean a custom Aventra would have to be designed — the cost of that would certainly outweigh the benefits of fleet standardisation.

 

[petersi]

GN timings on the slows at present are hampered so much by the 313's that their demise will make everyone's journey quicker.

Unless they have very much better acceleration. I dought Journeys times will change much. As south of Hertford North Most of the station are only 3 or 4 miles apart.

 

[jopsuk]

TfL aren't stupid- they might play with the layout, but with an essentially captive operation they would keep the 717s

 

[Downthelane]

Unless they have very much better acceleration. I dought Journeys times will change much. As south of Hertford North Most of the station are only 3 or 4 miles apart.

They have significantly better acceleration.

 

[Fred26]

They have significantly better acceleration.

Higher top speed too.

 

[Aictos]

Unless they have very much better acceleration. I dought Journeys times will change much. As south of Hertford North Most of the station are only 3 or 4 miles apart.

South of Gordon Hill they're even closer then that take Gordon Hill and Enfield Chase or Palmers Green and Winchmore Hill you've no more departed one station and you're at the next already.

There will be no need to change journey times until the last Class 313 has gone for the simple reason that they will want to keep the existing Class 313 timings so regardless if a Class 313 or a Class 717 is used on a specific service, it will keep to time.

They have significantly better acceleration.

Indeed and once the last Class 313 has been taken off passenger service then GTR can look into speeding up journeys for the GN Metro for example Hertford to Stevenage should take around 12 minutes, the new trains could improve that to 10 minutes not much but it's a start.

Higher top speed too.

Not that the higher top speed would be much help as there's not many places where they will reach their top speed unless you count the odd Hertford diversion via Welwyn Garden City in times of disruption and yes I've done them before, it's quite something to be racing along the GN on one.

 

[Downthelane]

Trains from Hertford North first stop Cuffley could save a fair few minutes if they are allowed to run faster than current line speed.

 

[Kite159]

Slow, uncomfortable, dirty, smelly, miserable units that have held back GN for years. Yes we will all be nostalgic when they finally all go but talks of railtours is a bit much?

Most of us miss the 317 and previously the 312 but these provided comfort and speed, the 313/5 units should have been removed 15-20 years ago and passengers at Hertford North in particular can't wait.

GN timings on the slows at present are hampered so much by the 313's that their demise will make everyone's journey quicker.

However I wonder what will become of the 717 in 43 years time?

And I wonder how long it will be until the complaints about less seats & those seats being ironing boards mean some of the regulars start wanting the 313s back

 

[APUK002]

Slow, uncomfortable, dirty, smelly, miserable units that have held back GN for years. Yes we will all be nostalgic when they finally all go but talks of railtours is a bit much?

Most of us miss the 317 and previously the 312 but these provided comfort and speed, the 313/5 units should have been removed 15-20 years ago and passengers at Hertford North in particular can't wait.

GN timings on the slows at present are hampered so much by the 313's that their demise will make everyone's journey quicker.

However I wonder what will become of the 717 in 43 years time?

I couldn’t agree more, they smell, look horrible,no air con etc.!!

 

[Aictos]

Trains from Hertford North first stop Cuffley could save a fair few minutes if they are allowed to run faster than current line speed.

Yes I agree BUT you forget this won't happen until said line speed is raised when the infrastructure has been upgraded as it's not usual practice for drivers to drive trains faster then the line speed otherwise there would be a lot having tea and biscuits

And I wonder how long it will be until the complaints about less seats & those seats being ironing boards mean some of the regulars start wanting the 313s back

It won't take long at all, although actually being able to board a train will make a BIG difference as they can get very cosy!

I couldn’t agree more, they smell, look horrible,no air con etc.!!

As certain Class 365 fans here would say and they know who they are btw, the fleet does have air conditioning already, it's called open the window

I question your wisdom as to they look horrible, they're not here to win any beauty contests although GTR hasn't done them any favours by not giving them the TLC they need - with a bit of TLC they will be fine until the day they actually retire.

Bearing in mind the fleet has worked more then 42 years and on very intensive workings so it's no surprise they're showing it.

I look forward to the 313s retiring but not because they're old but because they are solid workhorses that are simple to operate and so deserve to be retired at long last.

 

[JaJaWa]

... have been removed along with the FCC branded, but branding covered with sticky tape, line maps.

Are they being replaced with new ones?

 

[bramling]

Yes I agree BUT you forget this won't happen until said line speed is raised when the infrastructure has been upgraded as it's not usual practice for drivers to drive trains faster then the line speed otherwise there would be a lot having tea and biscuits



It won't take long at all, although actually being able to board a train will make a BIG difference as they can get very cosy!



As certain Class 365 fans here would say and they know who they are btw, the fleet does have air conditioning already, it's called open the window

I question your wisdom as to they look horrible, they're not here to win any beauty contests although GTR hasn't done them any favours by not giving them the TLC they need - with a bit of TLC they will be fine until the day they actually retire.

Bearing in mind the fleet has worked more then 42 years and on very intensive workings so it's no surprise they're showing it.

I look forward to the 313s retiring but not because they're old but because they are solid workhorses that are simple to operate and so deserve to be retired at long last.

The 313s are certainly in a dire state externally. It’s surprising they have been allowed to get as bad as they are, and this isn’t just a GTR thing as it started under FCC.

Agreed entirely that they don’t do badly for 40-year-old trains, and it can never be emphasised enough that these units are now working more intensively than ever before - or at least they would be were it not for the timetable shambles! All-day 6-car working, later night running, 6 cars at weekends, and 4tph across the board. Thinking back to the 90s there were even a couple of timetables under WAGN where the Welwyn and Hertford services were worked with 317s at weekends, although that idea didn’t last long.

As for speed increases, one wonders if we will see much of that, as the surely the FailedPlan2020 timetable is based around 313 performance, so knocking minutes off the schedules would surely mess everything up across the board? Naturally there will be some benefit making up time if late, but if people are expecting the 717s to suddenly shave loads of time off their journey then I suspect there may be disappointment! There are a few places where there may be benefit however - currently the stopping Cambridge services tend to catch up with the 313s around New Southgate on the up, so the 717s May make enough of a difference to make this less likely - but again I can’t see the timetable being re-cast to allow for this.

 

[Bikeman78]

Slow, uncomfortable, dirty, smelly, miserable units that have held back GN for years. Yes we will all be nostalgic when they finally all go but talks of railtours is a bit much?

Most of us miss the 317 and previously the 312 but these provided comfort and speed, the 313/5 units should have been removed 15-20 years ago and passengers at Hertford North in particular can't wait.

GN timings on the slows at present are hampered so much by the 313's that their demise will make everyone's journey quicker.

However I wonder what will become of the 717 in 43 years time?

I think you're being a little harsh. The state of the units is entirely down to GTR. I think they use a hammer and chisel to remove the graffitti and the insides are filthy. The 315s on the Shenfield line are spotless by comparison.

 

[Aictos]

The 313s are certainly in a dire state externally. It’s surprising they have been allowed to get as bad as they are, and this isn’t just a GTR thing as it started under FCC.

I disagree FCC actually did look after them a lot better then GTR has done, yes you had some running around with graffiti on or the aftermath of the graffiti being removed but that was the fault of the vandals doing it in the first place.

FCC also had the great idea of encouraging it's passengers to be more thoughtful towards others and leave their papers on the racks in specific places rather then leave the trains looking like a rubbish bin.

Agreed entirely that they don’t do badly for 40-year-old trains, and it can never be emphasised enough that these units are now working more intensively than ever before - or at least they would be were it not for the timetable shambles! All-day 6-car working, later night running, 6 cars at weekends, and 4tph across the board. Thinking back to the 90s there were even a couple of timetables under WAGN where the Welwyn and Hertford services were worked with 317s at weekends, although that idea didn’t last long.

Indeed and I can't argue with you on the fact that they are now working more intensively then they ever did under WAGN or FCC.

Don't forget that FCC also ran weekend services with 317s a few times, indeed I remember one Sunday when Hertford had nothing but 317s all day!

As for speed increases, one wonders if we will see much of that, as the surely the FailedPlan2020 timetable is based around 313 performance, so knocking minutes off the schedules would surely mess everything up across the board? Naturally there will be some benefit making up time if late, but if people are expecting the 717s to suddenly shave loads of time off their journey then I suspect there may be disappointment! There are a few places where there may be benefit however - currently the stopping Cambridge services tend to catch up with the 313s around New Southgate on the up, so the 717s May make enough of a difference to make this less likely - but again I can’t see the timetable being re-cast to allow for this.

I agree partly with this, the 717s won't suddenly shave loads of time off their workings overnight once all are in service then the Metro timetable can be reworked to take full advantage of the 717 performance but nothing will happen before then.

Anyway, the other thing that would help is if the slow lines got line speed improvements which coupled with the improved performance of the 717s would lead to better journey times not only for Metro users but also for Outer Suburban users as they wouldn't be stop starting behind the Metros.

 

[jon0844]

Besides the occasional smell of weed, I question those that say the trains are smelly. I've never noticed that.

Plus besides the external look and an increase in etching and graffiti inside, the trains are still properly cleaned and the seats are in good condition - which is probably all most people are worried about.

 

[sprunt]

I was reminded this morning of another, functional rather than aesthetic, reason I won't miss 313s - the communications system is terrible. A combination of tinny speakers and how noisy the trains are frequently makes any driver announcements completely inaudible. This morning it was only the "We are now approaching Moorgate where this train terminates..." announcement but there are a number of times when there is disruption, and the announcements telling passengers what is happening are indecipherable.

 

[387star]

Seats on gn 313s far superior to southern 3rd

 

[Aictos]

Seats on gn 313s far superior to southern 3rd

I disagree, the refurb on the 313s that Southern got actually made them look like new trains with improvements such as a onboard customer information system which the GN 313s have never had installed.

The high back seats on the majority of the GN 313s are awful, the ex London Overground 313s with the lower seats were far far better.

 

[jon0844]

I disagree, the refurb on the 313s that Southern got actually made them look like new trains with improvements such as a onboard customer information system which the GN 313s have never had installed.

The high back seats on the majority of the GN 313s are awful, the ex London Overground 313s with the lower seats were far far better.

I prefer the high back seats, not least for more privacy when travelling.

But the earlier comment about the poor PA system is valid. They should have had PIS fitted over a decade ago. At least they got CCTV though.

 

[Aictos]

I prefer the high back seats, not least for more privacy when travelling.

But the earlier comment about the poor PA system is valid. They should have had PIS fitted over a decade ago. At least they got CCTV though.

When the SN 313s got refurbished at Wolverton? FCC should have had their own 313s follow on with the same interior work and got them upgraded to the same standard as SN did, least then they would have had a PIS system fitted.

 

[bramling]

I agree partly with this, the 717s won't suddenly shave loads of time off their workings overnight once all are in service then the Metro timetable can be reworked to take full advantage of the 717 performance but nothing will happen before then.

Anyway, the other thing that would help is if the slow lines got line speed improvements which coupled with the improved performance of the 717s would lead to better journey times not only for Metro users but also for Outer Suburban users as they wouldn't be stop starting behind the Metros.

But that's my point, we already (in theory) now have a timetable which is more-or-less set in stone for the foreseeable future - barring certainly undelivered Thameslink Programme aspirations like the second Cambridge/Brighton and stopping services to/from Thameslink - all of which can be implemented without having to change the structure of the timetable.

Unless it's the case that this timetable has in fact been written with provision for 717 timings (which for all I know *could* be the case), then I can't see how it's possible to do much more than tweaks, as it's bound to lead to clashes.

I'd love to see the slow lines uprated in places - it would be good to see 90 mph north of Wood Green, and definitely at least 90 mph north of Woolmer Green. Given we waited something like four *decades* just to get a flashing yellow at Potters Bar on the down I don't hold out much hope of seeing this in my lifetime, although to be fair I imagine there would be quite a bit of realignment work required in places due to bridges and platforms, plus signalling modifications of course. Time will tell of course - as a minimum we should definitely be looking towards 90mph north of Woolmer Green and especially north of Hitchin.

 

[Aictos]

We should have upgraded the slow lines between Alexandra Palace to Digswell to 90mph years ago then upgrade Woolmer Green to Holme to 100mph - the higher speed between Hitchin and Holme would have reduced journey times greatly.

 

[jon0844]

As the 717s can do 85, you must hope that there are some plans to increase the limit on the slows to match one day. Given we have the Cambridge stoppers and the WGC to KGX semi fast trains using these lines almost exclusively now, there would be gains even if the timetable wasn't adjusted (that is using the higher speed for service recovery).

 

[717001]

My understanding from the consultations etc is that the final 2019-20 timetable was designed for the increased acceleration / braking etc of the 717s and the journeys (at least on the WGC side) were timed accordingly. There are planned omissions within that of stops at Haringey and Hornsey or Welham Green and Brookmans Park on certain services. However, in order to run the services with the 313s achieving the required end to end time and avoiding impeding faster services, additional stations have been omitted currently and other alterations made. This primarily impacts New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and Hadley Wood in the morning peak but even Hatfield southbound in the pm peak. Hopefully they'll be able to resolve these issues in May 2019 (December 2018 is looking unlikely).

 

[FOH]

When the SN 313s got refurbished at Wolverton? FCC should have had their own 313s follow on with the same interior work and got them upgraded to the same standard as SN did, least then they would have had a PIS system fitted.

I thought it was WAGN, they used a really nice seat moquette on the 313s which didn’t last long with FCC

 

[bramling]

My understanding from the consultations etc is that the final 2019-20 timetable was designed for the increased acceleration / braking etc of the 717s and the journeys (at least on the WGC side) were timed accordingly. There are planned omissions within that of stops at Haringey and Hornsey or Welham Green and Brookmans Park on certain services. However, in order to run the services with the 313s achieving the required end to end time and avoiding impeding faster services, additional stations have been omitted currently and other alterations made. This primarily impacts New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and Hadley Wood in the morning peak but even Hatfield southbound in the pm peak. Hopefully they'll be able to resolve these issues in May 2019 (December 2018 is looking unlikely).

That's interesting, and sort of ties in with my thinking. It does also explain some of the crazy stopping patterns, most especially the up trains missing Hatfield.

So it seems the 717s won't be providing much in the way of journey time enhancements, just more stops.

 

[bramling]

I thought it was WAGN, they used a really nice seat moquette on the 313s which didn’t last long with FCC

The 313s were refurbished by WAGN around 1998-2000 (roughly IIRC), following on from the 317/2s. The main change was the high-backed seats, but there were a few other alterations including passenger door control. Originally they were planned to get carpet, however this idea evidently got dropped before any units were done. For some reason the WAGN refurbishment didn't introduce a new livery, possibly because they were planning a differentiated inner-suburban livery which never happened, so for a few years the 313s ran around in white undercoat, a few units gaining adverts in the process. After a few years the units gained the WAGN plain purple livery, which the 317s also got. Under FCC the 313s gained new seat covers, new lino flooring and external vinyls - which is basically how the units are now, pretty much untouched for approaching a decade.

The 3x 313/1s have a slightly different history in that they had a less extensive refurbishment carried out by Silverlink in the late 1990s which was little more than an internal repaint and changes to grab poles. FCC didn't do much to them apart from repainting, new seat covers and (?) new flooring.

Agreed that the WAGN moquette was rather nice, although it wasn't unique to WAGN as the 16x Connex 365s had it from new as well, so originally it may well have been something chosen by the leasing company - WAGN then using it further in an effort to make their other fleets mimic the 365s (the 317/6 refurbishment was definitely designed to copy the 365 in many respects). Actually IMV the original red and green 365 interior was one of the best ever - very warm and cosy in winter whilst relaxing in summer. Much nicer than what the 365s have now, and IMV preferable to the FCC scheme which always seemed/seems rather dismal and depressing. Not sure why the 313s have always resolutely kept the yellow round the doors, unless perhaps it has something to do with the tunnel running (although why would it as these doors aren't an emergency exit in a Tube tunnel?).

 

[Aictos]

The 313s were refurbished by WAGN around 1998-2000 (roughly IIRC), following on from the 317/2s. The main change was the high-backed seats, but there were a few other alterations including passenger door control. Originally they were planned to get carpet, however this idea evidently got dropped before any units were done. For some reason the WAGN refurbishment didn't introduce a new livery, possibly because they were planning a differentiated inner-suburban livery which never happened, so for a few years the 313s ran around in white undercoat, a few units gaining adverts in the process. After a few years the units gained the WAGN plain purple livery, which the 317s also got. Under FCC the 313s gained new seat covers, new lino flooring and external vinyls - which is basically how the units are now, pretty much untouched for approaching a decade.

The 3x 313/1s have a slightly different history in that they had a less extensive refurbishment carried out by Silverlink in the late 1990s which was little more than an internal repaint and changes to grab poles. FCC didn't do much to them apart from repainting, new seat covers and (?) new flooring.

Agreed that the WAGN moquette was rather nice, although it wasn't unique to WAGN as the 16x Connex 365s had it from new as well, so originally it may well have been something chosen by the leasing company - WAGN then using it further in an effort to make their other fleets mimic the 365s (the 317/6 refurbishment was definitely designed to copy the 365 in many respects). Actually IMV the original red and green 365 interior was one of the best ever - very warm and cosy in winter whilst relaxing in summer. Much nicer than what the 365s have now, and IMV preferable to the FCC scheme which always seemed/seems rather dismal and depressing. Not sure why the 313s have always resolutely kept the yellow round the doors, unless perhaps it has something to do with the tunnel running (although why would it as these doors aren't an emergency exit in a Tube tunnel?).

That's interesting reading but I was actually referring to the point that the refurb that Pre GTR Southern did on the ex London Overground 313s pretty much made them like new trains, they were a world apart from the London Overground and WAGN/FCC interiors.

And quite surprising I actually do agree with you on the original red and green livery that the 365s used to have, that was the best livery they had period!

It's just a shame that the fleet got dumbed down the way it has I even remember the FCC 317s having carpets though out even in Standard Class until it was decided to do away with them except in 1st.

Back to the 717s though, it be interesting to see what people think of them as compared to the 313s when they finally enter passenger service.