I noticed a message on X advising that some services would be delayed by an hour due to the clocks going back this weekend. I had no idea that buses would sit for 1 hour in order to maintain schedule, as opposed to arriving 1 hour early. What happens in the spring when BST begins? Do any rail services do the same thing?
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GMT starts; how are services affected?
- Thread starter jadmor
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What operator was this for?
I've not encountered the idea of buses being expected to sit somewhere for an hour to deal with the clock change (and obviously buses can't time travel in spring when an hour falls out of the night.)
Or do they mean buses that start early on Sunday morning? As they will start at Sunday GMT time not Saturday BST time.
I've not had anything to do with scheduling long distance coaches, but as far as night buses go, most night bus operations are scheduled as part of the previous day's operation.
Operators can choose to operate the entire night's service to Saturday's 'time zone' (which could result in an hour's gap before Sunday day buses start in Autumn and overlapping with early Sunday buses in spring) - this is what London Transport historically did (although there were very few night buses that ran on a Saturday night until the early 80s, and they were more about getting Fleet Street print workers home after their night's work than catering for what's now called 'the night economy'.)
London operators (and at least some of the non London operators who run night or 24/7 services) will do a special schedule for the nights with either an extra hour's worth of journeys in autumn or an hour's worth of journeys taken out in spring.
'Clocks Back' is more complicated as you have a 25 hour operating day, and some if not all the night driver duties will break a 'drivers hours' rule if you just expect the driver to do another journey (and potentially then end up at the wrong end of the route) so you usually end up having to re-cook the night duties and put an extra duty or two in.
Taking an hour out of duties in spring is easier, although with a large night operation it may be worth re-cooking the night duties to do the whole thing with a duty or two less. And in both cases, you have to make sure you get the change from night to day service right if you have night buses that stay out to do the first journey or two on the 'day' service, or (less common) the first 'day' buses out doing the last journey/s on a 'night' route. (Within London, even on the '24 hour routes', some journeys will be regarded as 'night' journeys even if the general public doesn't see the difference.)
(Yes I have done this, and it's no longer something I have to deal with...)
I've not encountered the idea of buses being expected to sit somewhere for an hour to deal with the clock change (and obviously buses can't time travel in spring when an hour falls out of the night.)
Or do they mean buses that start early on Sunday morning? As they will start at Sunday GMT time not Saturday BST time.
I've not had anything to do with scheduling long distance coaches, but as far as night buses go, most night bus operations are scheduled as part of the previous day's operation.
Operators can choose to operate the entire night's service to Saturday's 'time zone' (which could result in an hour's gap before Sunday day buses start in Autumn and overlapping with early Sunday buses in spring) - this is what London Transport historically did (although there were very few night buses that ran on a Saturday night until the early 80s, and they were more about getting Fleet Street print workers home after their night's work than catering for what's now called 'the night economy'.)
London operators (and at least some of the non London operators who run night or 24/7 services) will do a special schedule for the nights with either an extra hour's worth of journeys in autumn or an hour's worth of journeys taken out in spring.
'Clocks Back' is more complicated as you have a 25 hour operating day, and some if not all the night driver duties will break a 'drivers hours' rule if you just expect the driver to do another journey (and potentially then end up at the wrong end of the route) so you usually end up having to re-cook the night duties and put an extra duty or two in.
Taking an hour out of duties in spring is easier, although with a large night operation it may be worth re-cooking the night duties to do the whole thing with a duty or two less. And in both cases, you have to make sure you get the change from night to day service right if you have night buses that stay out to do the first journey or two on the 'day' service, or (less common) the first 'day' buses out doing the last journey/s on a 'night' route. (Within London, even on the '24 hour routes', some journeys will be regarded as 'night' journeys even if the general public doesn't see the difference.)
(Yes I have done this, and it's no longer something I have to deal with...)
JKP
Member
Lothian will be operating to BST timings on their night services this weekend.I noticed a message on X advising that some services would be delayed by an hour due to the clocks going back this weekend. I had no idea that buses would sit for 1 hour in order to maintain schedule, as opposed to arriving 1 hour early. What happens in the spring when BST begins? Do any rail services do the same thing?
greenline712
Member
As @Roger1973 says . . . Clocks Back (or FallBack as I used to refer to it) means that, at 0200, it will suddenly become 0100. Effectively, any day buses still running will simply run their mileage out.
In London . . . any night buses duties will extend by one hour to avoid a gap between last night bus and first day bus. If this will result in a duty breaching drivers hours or their "agreement", then a new driver will be required. In practice, a few extra duties will step into the nights' "cut" and either extend duties, or give a mealbreak to the original driver so they can resume and finish off one hour later. The drivers will be instructed NOT to reset their watch, and to ignore the time on their phone or the ETM. In practice, night bus drivers are very clued-up about what is necessary, and need little extra supervision.
In the spring, we have Clocks Forward (SpringForward), which is much easier . . . at 0200 it will suddenly become 0300! Because early day buses will start at their normal times, there is an overlap between nighters finishing and day buses starting, so the relevant night bus duties will finish one hour earlier to avoid duplication. There is always some duplication / overlap, but keeping it to a minimum is the aim. Where a night bus driver works an early trip on a day route, shen some "tweaking" will be required, but this is usually pretty minor.
What about pay? Ah . . . in order to get the co-operation of the troops . . . any driver finishing later than their expected time will be paid overtime. Any driver finishing earlier than their expected time will NOT lose any pay! This might seem weighted towards the driver, but the amounts of money involved are tiny, so it really doesn't matter.
As far as Countdown and Real Time information is concerned . . . when I last dealt with clock change schedules (in Autumn 2019), it was usually left "in the air". We didn't usually update the schedules that were uploaded, but issued manually-adjusted dutycards and schedules . . . although I believe that, since then, it has been expected to upload corrected schedules. Quite how BusTimes deals with buses that effectively jump forward one hour, or stand still for one hour, I really don't know . . . and as I'm tucked up in bed, I really don't care!!
In London . . . any night buses duties will extend by one hour to avoid a gap between last night bus and first day bus. If this will result in a duty breaching drivers hours or their "agreement", then a new driver will be required. In practice, a few extra duties will step into the nights' "cut" and either extend duties, or give a mealbreak to the original driver so they can resume and finish off one hour later. The drivers will be instructed NOT to reset their watch, and to ignore the time on their phone or the ETM. In practice, night bus drivers are very clued-up about what is necessary, and need little extra supervision.
In the spring, we have Clocks Forward (SpringForward), which is much easier . . . at 0200 it will suddenly become 0300! Because early day buses will start at their normal times, there is an overlap between nighters finishing and day buses starting, so the relevant night bus duties will finish one hour earlier to avoid duplication. There is always some duplication / overlap, but keeping it to a minimum is the aim. Where a night bus driver works an early trip on a day route, shen some "tweaking" will be required, but this is usually pretty minor.
What about pay? Ah . . . in order to get the co-operation of the troops . . . any driver finishing later than their expected time will be paid overtime. Any driver finishing earlier than their expected time will NOT lose any pay! This might seem weighted towards the driver, but the amounts of money involved are tiny, so it really doesn't matter.
As far as Countdown and Real Time information is concerned . . . when I last dealt with clock change schedules (in Autumn 2019), it was usually left "in the air". We didn't usually update the schedules that were uploaded, but issued manually-adjusted dutycards and schedules . . . although I believe that, since then, it has been expected to upload corrected schedules. Quite how BusTimes deals with buses that effectively jump forward one hour, or stand still for one hour, I really don't know . . . and as I'm tucked up in bed, I really don't care!!
Stan Drews
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Everywhere I’ve worked the change (either spring or autumn) has generally been ignored by any late night or through the night bus services until the bus finishes.
Stagecoach Devon and More in Bournemouth state that the night buses will all stay on summer time to the end. Sunday service from 4am onwards will be on the new time. Whether in Bournemouth you get a gap or duplication I am not sure, but Devon has a gap anyway.
Megabus state that most of their over night services will sit for an hour at a specified place.
Falcon coach Plymouth / Bristol (2 hourly or more all night) have usually adjusted the Plymouth departures by an hour as needed and possibly a long layover in Bristol to make a fairly clean swap. Each journey is on a single time zone. There is normally therefore a slightly strange set of gaps during that night.
Megabus state that most of their over night services will sit for an hour at a specified place.
Falcon coach Plymouth / Bristol (2 hourly or more all night) have usually adjusted the Plymouth departures by an hour as needed and possibly a long layover in Bristol to make a fairly clean swap. Each journey is on a single time zone. There is normally therefore a slightly strange set of gaps during that night.
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