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Gloucester box upgrade

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Pete_uk

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From Saturday 27 September until Sunday 5 October, Network Rail workers will be completing a vital upgrade of the signal box. They will replace twelve miles of wiring.

The signalling system at Gloucester controls train movements between Bristol, Worcester, Swindon and South Wales. It was installed in the late 1960s, and some components need to be modernised and upgraded. Network Rail promises that this will ensure that train services can continue to operate reliably through the area.

No trains will stop at or travel through Gloucester station while the upgrade takes place. Buses will replace trains at several stations in the region.

Trains will continue to operate between Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway and Swindon. However, they will not stop at Gloucester.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what kind of signaling system will be deployed?

Thanks
 
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The Planner

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The eNtrance-eXit panel at Gloucester PSB was installed in 1968.
But presumably the control area of Gloucester PSB is significantly reduced from the original.
Certainly towards Birmingham where the new West Midlands SCC installation at Saltley has taken over the Blackwell-Ashchurch section from Gloucester (I think the Avon viaduct is the new boundary).
 

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But presumably the control area of Gloucester PSB is significantly reduced from the original.
Certainly towards Birmingham where the new West Midlands SCC installation at Saltley has taken over the Blackwell-Ashchurch section from Gloucester (I think the Avon viaduct is the new boundary).
The boundary is Eckington
 

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The eNtrance-eXit panel at Gloucester PSB was installed in 1968.
I think it's just a rewire of the relay room. There was a plan to remove the control panel and replace it with two workstations but this was shelved sometime in late 2022.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But presumably the control area of Gloucester PSB is significantly reduced from the original.
Certainly towards Birmingham where the new West Midlands SCC installation at Saltley has taken over the Blackwell-Ashchurch section from Gloucester (I think the Avon viaduct is the new boundary).
Yes, the 2016 resignalling of Bromsgrove cut back the boundary with the Midlands from Blackwell to Eckington. The A panel still has the last layout underneath an ugly wooden sheath.

The Panel lost a bit when Newport was closed and the South Wales SC extended its boundary to Awre Junction/Naas Crossing.
 

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As I understand it, as Ashley Hill says.

PCP rubber insulated wire has a limited lifespan. This is the type of wire used for all safety critical circuitry (used for the interlocking wiring). The plan was to completely replace Gloucester PSB (the whole area) with a new system. But, if this has been cancelled or postponed for years and the existing wiring is in a poor state, work would be needed now.

If the work for this phase is only the safety critical circuitry for the "local" interlocking in the relay room at Gloucester PSB, it will likely only affect the signalling within and around the PSB and the station. It will not affect the signalling (including) junctions controlled by remote interlockings.

Although, some of these remote interlockings will likely need their wiring replacing at some point.

So, it does appear to be replacing like for like. Therefore, not an upgrade. No different than replacing the wiper blades or tyres on your car.
 

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It seems a false economy trying to keep this 1960s technology going - with skills to maintain it ever more scarce - when it is going to have to be replaced anyway. What ever happened to ROCs and all that malarkey or even ECTS?

Off topic, I'm amused to find that the 2006 Ansaldo rubbish signalling between Crewe and Cheadle Hulme is going to be replaced yet the 1884 Stockport boxes will soldier on. Do Network Rail have a coherent signalling policy?
 

edwin_m

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As I understand it, as Ashley Hill says.

PCP rubber insulated wire has a limited lifespan. This is the type of wire used for all safety critical circuitry (used for the interlocking wiring). The plan was to completely replace Gloucester PSB (the whole area) with a new system. But, if this has been cancelled or postponed for years and the existing wiring is in a poor state, work would be needed now.

If the work for this phase is only the safety critical circuitry for the "local" interlocking in the relay room at Gloucester PSB, it will likely only affect the signalling within and around the PSB and the station. It will not affect the signalling (including) junctions controlled by remote interlockings.

Although, some of these remote interlockings will likely need their wiring replacing at some point.

So, it does appear to be replacing like for like. Therefore, not an upgrade. No different than replacing the wiper blades or tyres on your car.
That's consistent with the service alterations in the OP's link. Nothing is running through Gloucester itself, but there is still service on the through route between Cheltenham and Bristol Parkway. It's a shame they couldn't have done this during the recent closure between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction, which will now be disrupted again.
It seems a false economy trying to keep this 1960s technology going - with skills to maintain it ever more scarce - when it is going to have to be replaced anyway. What ever happened to ROCs and all that malarkey or even ECTS?

Off topic, I'm amused to find that the 2006 Ansaldo rubbish signalling between Crewe and Cheadle Hulme is going to be replaced yet the 1884 Stockport boxes will soldier on. Do Network Rail have a coherent signalling policy?
It's all done on remaining asset life and the scope for life extension. I assume the relay interlocking itself is in good condition and there are people and spares to keep it going. It's one of the few survivors of the large Western Region re-signallings of the 1960s - I think the only others are Plymouth and the bit of Bristol PSB area west of Temple Meads. So there are probably spares available that were released by the replacement of the others prior to the GWML electrification, not that the wires have actually reached much of those areas.

Mechanical signalling can essentially last for ever as long as the skill base is kept to maintain it, and if necessary hand-craft replacements for the bits of steel and brass that it is made of. Relay-based signalling like Gloucester dating from roughly 1950 to 1990 often suffers from wire degradation but if the actual relays become unobtainable then that is going to be end of life. More recent solid state equipment can suffer from component obsolescence, although the nature of software-based systems makes it less difficult to replace one element and interface it to others that are remain.
 

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It seems a false economy trying to keep this 1960s technology going - with skills to maintain it ever more scarce - when it is going to have to be replaced anyway. What ever happened to ROCs and all that malarkey or even ECTS?

Off topic, I'm amused to find that the 2006 Ansaldo rubbish signalling between Crewe and Cheadle Hulme is going to be replaced yet the 1884 Stockport boxes will soldier on. Do Network Rail have a coherent signalling policy?
Comes down to money, simple as. The Anslado replacement is effectively new heads on the existing posts.
 

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It seems a false economy trying to keep this 1960s technology going - with skills to maintain it ever more scarce - when it is going to have to be replaced anyway. What ever happened to ROCs and all that malarkey or even ECTS?

Likely no money available for any new ROCs or new large scale resignalling / re-control schemes at the moment. ETCS/ERTMS is being rolled out, but it will be sometime after 2030/2035 or even later for Western Route.

Replacing the existing wiring can be done by Network Rail's own staff or by the relevant contractors used by Network Rail.

I assume the relay interlocking itself is in good condition and there are people and spares to keep it going. It's one of the few survivors of the large Western Region re-signallings of the 1960s - I think the only others are Plymouth and the bit of Bristol PSB area west of Temple Meads. So there are probably spares available that were released by the replacement of the others prior to the GWML electrification, not that the wires have actually reached much of those areas.

Mechanical signalling can essentially last for ever as long as the skill base is kept to maintain it, and if necessary hand-craft replacements for the bits of steel and brass that it is made of. Relay-based signalling like Gloucester dating from roughly 1950 to 1990 often suffers from wire degradation but if the actual relays become unobtainable then that is going to be end of life. More recent solid state equipment can suffer from component obsolescence, although the nature of software-based systems makes it less difficult to replace one element and interface it to others that are remain.
On Western, as well as the PSBs that use relay based interlockings already mentioned (Gloucester, Plymouth and Bristol), there is also Exeter and Westbury PSBs. Plus some smaller installations (Bristol SPM, St. Andrews Junction signal box at Avonmouth for example).

Also, computer based SSI signalling (including the recent area that TVSC took control of) use some relays for some functions.

Replacements / spares for the relays, the relay bases (also known as plug boards) and the wiring and terminals are as far as I am aware, all still available brand new. Where they are not available new, relays can be sent off for repair and servicing. Most are built from modular components.

"Old" relays that went out of use when TVSC took over most of the Bristol and Swindon PSB areas would have had to be sent back for servicing before they could be used elsewhere. However sending relays back for repair and servicing is apparently not much different to buying new relays. So new relays are now bought to replace life expired or faulty relays were possible.

Normal DC neutral line relays are run to failure anyway (some in use date back to the 1960s), they don't have a prescribed lifespan. Special function relays have a ten year lifespan before they need to be replaced, such as track relays, magnetic latched relays that control points, thermal timing relays and some other types. So all these will be existing relays that have been serviced within the last ten years, or relays manufactured within the last ten years.

All the original 1960s and 1970s relay bases were made of black plastic. I don't know for certain about Gloucester, but in many relay rooms, they have all been replaced due to a problem that was discovered many years ago.

So, the oldest part (excluding the metal frames that the equipment is attached to/mounted on) may well be the wiring...

As to skills, the railway carries out it's own training for relay based signalling. E.g. there is a training facility at Bristol Parkway.

Mechanical signalling is, in many ways, more of a pain to keep going. There were various different suppliers / makes. Most of the original companies have closed or no longer supply parts. Some equipment may use bespoke parts. Even "standard" parts have to be commissioned once the existing spares run out. And some mechanical signalling does use electrical systems. The older "shelf" type relays have to be serviced and repaired because these are no longer available new. And are far more expensive than the later type used in PSB areas.
 

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What ever happened to ROCs and all that malarkey
Network Rail politics and its peculiar history of delegated leadership. Stuff got slugged out in the middle and the grown-ups kept their distance making sure nothing nasty stuck to them, so ‘strategies’ never became firm policy and the tensions between the central silos and between the centre and routes kept disparate agendas alive. When top faces changed, the absence of a mandated strategy made it easy for routes to do their own thing.

Oh, and money which was why, towards its demise, the operating strategy burnt through time and millions descoping all the stuff there was no money for.
Do Network Rail have a coherent signalling policy?
To renew (or partially renew) like-for-like everything every 25 years, based on condition, from a pot of cash that is never enough to do 1/25th of the estate each year.

Anything to deliver extra capabilities waits for enhancement funding to be available.
 

D365

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Likely no money available for any new ROCs or new large scale resignalling / re-control schemes at the moment. ETCS/ERTMS is being rolled out, but it will be sometime after 2030/2035 or even later for Western Route.
Network Rail is struggling for funding to complete the ongoing resignalling works. Let alone kick off any new programmes.
Replacing the existing wiring can be done by Network Rail's own staff or by the relevant contractors used by Network Rail.
Indeed. I think some of the contributors here are getting far too excited about what is a comparatively simple renewal.
 

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Likely no money available for any new ROCs or new large scale resignalling / re-control schemes at the moment. ETCS/ERTMS is being rolled out, but it will be sometime after 2030/2035 or even later for Western Route.

Replacing the existing wiring can be done by Network Rail's own staff or by the relevant contractors used by Network Rail.


On Western, as well as the PSBs that use relay based interlockings already mentioned (Gloucester, Plymouth and Bristol), there is also Exeter and Westbury PSBs. Plus some smaller installations (Bristol SPM, St. Andrews Junction signal box at Avonmouth for example).

Also, computer based SSI signalling (including the recent area that TVSC took control of) use some relays for some functions.

Replacements / spares for the relays, the relay bases (also known as plug boards) and the wiring and terminals are as far as I am aware, all still available brand new. Where they are not available new, relays can be sent off for repair and servicing. Most are built from modular components.

"Old" relays that went out of use when TVSC took over most of the Bristol and Swindon PSB areas would have had to be sent back for servicing before they could be used elsewhere. However sending relays back for repair and servicing is apparently not much different to buying new relays. So new relays are now bought to replace life expired or faulty relays were possible.

Normal DC neutral line relays are run to failure anyway (some in use date back to the 1960s), they don't have a prescribed lifespan. Special function relays have a ten year lifespan before they need to be replaced, such as track relays, magnetic latched relays that control points, thermal timing relays and some other types. So all these will be existing relays that have been serviced within the last ten years, or relays manufactured within the last ten years.

All the original 1960s and 1970s relay bases were made of black plastic. I don't know for certain about Gloucester, but in many relay rooms, they have all been replaced due to a problem that was discovered many years ago.

So, the oldest part (excluding the metal frames that the equipment is attached to/mounted on) may well be the wiring...

As to skills, the railway carries out it's own training for relay based signalling. E.g. there is a training facility at Bristol Parkway.

Mechanical signalling is, in many ways, more of a pain to keep going. There were various different suppliers / makes. Most of the original companies have closed or no longer supply parts. Some equipment may use bespoke parts. Even "standard" parts have to be commissioned once the existing spares run out. And some mechanical signalling does use electrical systems. The older "shelf" type relays have to be serviced and repaired because these are no longer available new. And are far more expensive than the later type used in PSB areas.
Thanks for the detail. I believe Exeter and Westbury were later than the other WR re-signalling schemes, so condition may not be so critical. But there have been problems with more recent relay interlockings too, for example Edinburgh dating from the late 70s.
 

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Thanks for the detail. I believe Exeter and Westbury were later than the other WR re-signalling schemes, so condition may not be so critical.
Even 20 years ago when it was only 20 years or so old, wire condition was said to be very poor at Exeter.

Also, didn’t Westbury and Exeter involve quite a bit of recycled kit from the likes of OOC? Westbury certainly didn’t have a full alphabet on it’s TDs in the past.
 

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Thanks for the detail. I believe Exeter and Westbury were later than the other WR re-signalling schemes, so condition may not be so critical. But there have been problems with more recent relay interlockings too, for example Edinburgh dating from the late 70s.

Even 20 years ago when it was only 20 years or so old, wire condition was said to be very poor at Exeter.

Also, didn’t Westbury and Exeter involve quite a bit of recycled kit from the likes of OOC? Westbury certainly didn’t have a full alphabet on it’s TDs in the past.
Yes, Westbury and Exeter are 1980s PSBs. They were the last big route relay interlocking signalling schemes on the English part of Western.

With PCP rubber insulated wire, how long it lasts depends mainly on the quality when manufactured, how much heat it is subjected to over time and for cable terminations, if it was affected by the practice of using mineral oil on the terminals.

A large amount of wiring installed in the 1980s, was discovered years later to be a particularly poor batch of wire. The "bad" batches were found to be degrading far quicker than other batches. This is the "dry" type of degradation where the inner insulation gradually turns to dust. The outer insulation then goes brittle as well, and splits. If disturbed, chunks of insulation can fall off, leaving a bare metal wire. Heat speeds up this type of degradation.

The heat can be the temperature of the air overall in the relay room or location cupboard, or it can be from equipment on the rack. Wiring on the rack above say, a power supply unit or track circuit equipment, was found to be much more likely to degrade than straight runs in trunking or cable trees that were run away from equipment.

Up until about the mid 1990s (can't remember the date now), it was common practice in some areas to use light mineral oil on the terminals where internal wires and external cables are connected, to prevent corrosion. But over time, this reacts with the insulation of the wire (the oil tracks up in the wire) causing it to degrade. This is the "wet" type of degradation. The the inner insulation gradually turns to goo. The outer insulation splits. If disturbed, bits of insulation can fall off, leaving a bare metal wire. There are other causes of "wet" type of degradation, but they are less common.

It's unlikely much equipment from OOC would have been used in the building of Exeter or Westbury. Some maybe. But spares and decommissioned parts would have been made available to other areas where the same type of equipment was in use.

The TD used at the time for the new PSBs was the then new Western Region Solid State Train Describer system (SSTD). The prototype system was IIRC first used at Swindon. Then later, SSTD was installed in some of the other 1960s and 1970s Western PSBs to replace the electromechanical WRTD (Western Region Train Describer) that was unreliable.

SSTD could handle more characters than WRTD. WRTD could only have 0 to 9 in the first, third and fourth "digits", with ten letters only in the second digit. SSTD could have characters 0 to 9, L, R and B in the first, third and fourth "digits". And characters Z, A, B, C, F, E, M, O, V, X, D, G, H, J, K, L, N, P, R, S, T, U, W, Y and * in the second digit. The four digit display could also show the "_t*_" (where "_" means blank) fault code if the cable connection to it was disconnected.

The Vaughan 4M TD system was used later to replace some SSTD systems. When the SSTD system at Bristol was replaced with a Vaughan 4M system, all the spare SSTD cards and the SSTD equipment cubicles were transferred to Westbury, as their SSTD system was still in use at the time.
 
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Sir Felix Pole

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Presumably a 'Gloucester' type job is going to have to be done on Exeter at some point if a 'mini-ROC' (which I thought was the latest plan) can't be afforded? We now have the slightly odd situation of Liskeard box in Cornwall interfacing to Exeter in the west and Plymouth in the east!
 

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Presumably a 'Gloucester' type job is going to have to be done on Exeter at some point if a 'mini-ROC' (which I thought was the latest plan) can't be afforded? We now have the slightly odd situation of Liskeard box in Cornwall interfacing to Exeter in the west and Plymouth in the east!
I think it will be many, many years before the 1980s Exeter interlocking is replaced with a computer based signalling system. So, yes, when the insulation of the wiring has degraded too much, you may see the same thing needing to happen. And it won't just be Exeter.

What is really annoying, is that before all the cut backs in maintenance staff, like for like wire renewal could have been done piecemeal each night over weeks or months. But you can't do this once the insulation becomes too fragile. Once you get to the "too fragile" state, wiring can only be disturbed if all traffic is stopped during the works because of the increased risk and all wiring in the same vicinity (same rack for example) that has compromised insulation has to be replaced. So, the longer that the decision is put off on when or if to replace like for like, the more that the railway boxes itself in...

It's not helped by maintenance having had work that had traditionally (under BR) been a maintenance responsibility moved to coming under minor renewals and hence funded separately by the RAM. The work now moved to CAPEX/Works Delivery (or other name for the same thing).
 

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I think it will be many, many years before the 1980s Exeter interlocking is replaced with a computer based signalling system. So, yes, when the insulation of the wiring has degraded too much, you may see the same thing needing to happen. And it won't just be Exeter.

What is really annoying, is that before all the cut backs in maintenance staff, like for like wire renewal could have been done piecemeal each night over weeks or months. But you can't do this once the insulation becomes too fragile. Once you get to the "too fragile" state, wiring can only be disturbed if all traffic is stopped during the works because of the increased risk and all wiring in the same vicinity (same rack for example) that has compromised insulation has to be replaced. So, the longer that the decision is put off on when or if to replace like for like, the more that the railway boxes itself in...

It's not helped by maintenance having had work that had traditionally (under BR) been a maintenance responsibility moved to coming under minor renewals and hence funded separately by the RAM. The work now moved to CAPEX/Works Delivery (or other name for the same thing).
Interesting, thanks. Maybe things will improve with GBR - at least it won't have to make compensation payments to itself for disruption? I was hoping for a resignalling to also include Crediton so that there can be genuine double-track to Coleford Jcn for the Okehampton / Barnstaple branches. Ah well!
 

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The old tech explains why I couldn't see the aspects or pathing on my late running XC last night. It is surprising a busy line with 2 tocs hasn't been upgraded to something newer, even with the old setup you can see the headcodes move through Traksy in the area,
 

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The old tech explains why I couldn't see the aspects or pathing on my late running XC last night. It is surprising a busy line with 2 tocs hasn't been upgraded to something newer, even with the old setup you can see the headcodes move through Traksy in the area,
I've noticed while looking at the staff information screen at Cheltenham that route and signal information wasn't available across the entire screen.

There may be a few exceptions, but basically every train describer has the simple interface that just communicates train descriptions and berths. Signalling information tends to be available only on the more recent ones, and to implement it on somewhere like Gloucester would involve adding a lot more wiring. It could probably be done by connecting to the terminals feeding the relevant lamps in the back of the panel, which aren't as critical as the wires in the interlocking itself, but it would still be a big and costly job with the potential to cause problems with the elderly existing equipment.
 

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I've noticed while looking at the staff information screen at Cheltenham that route and signal information wasn't available across the entire screen.

There may be a few exceptions, but basically every train describer has the simple interface that just communicates train descriptions and berths. Signalling information tends to be available only on the more recent ones, and to implement it on somewhere like Gloucester would involve adding a lot more wiring. It could probably be done by connecting to the terminals feeding the relevant lamps in the back of the panel, which aren't as critical as the wires in the interlocking itself, but it would still be a big and costly job with the potential to cause problems with the elderly existing equipment.
That's not entirely correct.

The signal aspect and route information if present, does originate from the train describer system (TD). I can't remember for certain, but I think Gloucester has a Vaughan 4M TD system.

In a Western Region Free Wired Interlocking like at Gloucester, the TD system normally gets the signal aspect and route information from a combination of some of the non-safety Post Office (PO) relays (these are used to interface to the signallers panel lamps and the entry/exit switches/buttons plus the route calling relay is this type) and the safety critical interlocking relays (for the "local" interlocking at the PSB). For all remote interlocking areas, there are only PO relays at the PSB for the relevent remote interlocking areas, and these are what feed the TD.

However, the design of the TD and the connections to the signalling system are such that for many signals, you only need to know when a train has passed a signal. And a repeat of the relevant track circuit is used for this. Hence the TD is not fed with the aspect state of the signal and for plain line signals, there is no route information needed. So it has no data to pass forward.

The situation is different with some controlled signals (such as signals at junctions). With these, the TD needs to know which route the signaller has set and if the signal is showing a proceed aspect, so that the train description (number) only steps forward from the correct signal to the next signal for the route that is set. Hence the needed information is contained within the TD system. However, that does not mean that the data feed from the TD actually contains this data... Or that this data if present, is in the normal format.

If you look at the OpenTrainTimes map for the Gloucester area and look at Standish Junction, the currently selected route (when one is set) appears in a separate berth called "G70 Route".
 

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I think it will be many, many years before the 1980s Exeter interlocking is replaced with a computer based signalling system. So, yes, when the insulation of the wiring has degraded too much, you may see the same thing needing to happen. And it won't just be Exeter.

What is really annoying, is that before all the cut backs in maintenance staff, like for like wire renewal could have been done piecemeal each night over weeks or months. But you can't do this once the insulation becomes too fragile. Once you get to the "too fragile" state, wiring can only be disturbed if all traffic is stopped during the works because of the increased risk and all wiring in the same vicinity (same rack for example) that has compromised insulation has to be replaced. So, the longer that the decision is put off on when or if to replace like for like, the more that the railway boxes itself in...

It's not helped by maintenance having had work that had traditionally (under BR) been a maintenance responsibility moved to coming under minor renewals and hence funded separately by the RAM. The work now moved to CAPEX/Works Delivery (or other name for the same thing).
WR E10K interlockings can have replacement racks slotted in more readily than many BR standard and other regional designs, due to the structured cabling system used. In E10K, each rack is self-contained, with no individual wires going beyond the rack and any circuits requiring connection to other racks using cores in the cabling, via rack-top screw terminal strips, known as 'Belling Lees' after the usual manufacturer. By contrast, a 'pure' BR free-wired interlocking can have individual wires stretching from any rack to any other over the entirety of a large room, routed via capacious enclosed raceways above the racking. In E10K, the multicore cables are typically routed around the relay room on high-level open 'Harvey' trays rather than in raceway trunking.

This architecture simplifies renewal of both racks and cabling in a 'Trigger's Broom' strategy. Complete new replacement racks to original design can be pre-wired and part-tested ready for a changeover process that simply involves disconnecting and reconnecting the inter-rack cabling. Once in place, a new rack can be repopulated with the plug-in relays from the corresponding old one, likely taking the opportunity to renew some of the oldest and any of concern. Then a functional test can be carried out before recommissioning.
 
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National Rail website reporting that work will now continue into Monday with replacement buses remaining in place.
 

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Gloucester Panel (PSB) opened in 1968. The same year as Swindon Panel (PSB) and just two years before Bristol Panel PSB (first phase 1970, last phase 1974).

Just like other large (for back then) resignalling schemes, it would have been brought into use in stages over months or years as it replaced hundreds of mechanical signal boxes.

So, another day or so, to complete the (more difficult than expected) rewiring is small fry.

But obviously, a right pain for people travelling by bus rather than on the train that they were expecting.
 
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