Glasgow To Liverpool direct?

[bluenoxid]

Make it a new "Cross-Country" route starting in Stirling, routing via E-W and finishing at Heathrow with a reversal at Hayes & Harlington.

Few people would use it from end-to-end, but it would give a fantastic opportunity for sectional through journeys.

07:00 Stirling
07:14 Falkirk Grahamston
07:35 Edinburgh Park
07:41 Haymarket
07:52 Edinburgh Waverley
07:56 Haymarket
09:06 Carlisle
10:03 Lancaster
10:21 Preston
10:59 Manchester Oxford Road
11:10 Manchester Piccadilly
11:43 Stoke-On-Trent
12:41 Milton Keynes
13:00 Bicester Village
13:03 Oxford Parkway
13:07 Oxford Central
13:30 Reading
13:51 Hayes & Harlington
14:05 Heathrow T1,T2&T3
14:10 Heathrow T5

Ignore the latter three and terminate at Heathrow Central in the early 2020s

 

[adrock1976]

Glasgow Central to London Euston 'direct' currently takes four hours 30 minutes approx. Glasgow Central to Manchester Piccadilly currently takes three hours twenty minutes approx, add on to this the current journey time between Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston of two hours five minutes approx and we have a journey time of five hours 25 minutes approx if the service ran today.

Looking beyond December 2016 if we factor in the shorter route via Bolton and its upcoming 100mph speed limits and using Class 390's acceleration for the whole route its realistic if could be brought under five hours. Excellent when compared to the six hours plus running time when going via Birmingham.

An ideal calling pattern like this perhaps:

Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley
Carlisle
Lancaster
Preston
Bolton
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Piccadilly
Stoke-On-Trent
Milton Keynes Central
London Euston

Another important station call you've missed out is Motherwell, in addition to Stockport.

Why cut it short at Glasgow though?

Not everyone wants to trail across the city.

Better to route it via Edinburgh and give options for services further North?

Instead of routing via Edinburgh and reversing, how about from Inverness/Perth/Stirling southbound running direct via the Caledonian Main Line calling at Coatbridge Central, Motherwell, alternating between Carstairs and a reopened Symington, Lockerbie, Carlisle Citadel, and as per pattern above?

In peace

Adam

 

[DT611]

It depends. Take the last direct Liverpool to Scotland services (I may be wrong on this). They were formed of a class 47 and 6 coaches. It would now be formed I am guessing of 4 or 8. In the age of multiple units there is no other option other than perhaps a 5 car Voyager. Multiple Units give the option of too long, too short or far too short.

yes. that unfortunately is the problem with multiple units. however their strengths seem to be worth sacrificing being able to match capacity to demand for

 

[Bevan Price]

It depends. Take the last direct Liverpool to Scotland services (I may be wrong on this). They were formed of a class 47 and 6 coaches. It would now be formed I am guessing of 4 or 8. In the age of multiple units there is no other option other than perhaps a 5 car Voyager. Multiple Units give the option of too long, too short or far too short.

They were reduced to a 2 car Class 158 (one each way), linked to the Liverpool - Portsmouth service. These were later replaced by Voyagers, which could be either a 220 or 221, then ceased when Cross Country was lost by Virgin.

 

[fowler9]

They were reduced to a 2 car Class 158 (one each way), linked to the Liverpool - Portsmouth service. These were later replaced by Voyagers, which could be either a 220 or 221, then ceased when Cross Country was lost by Virgin.

That rings a bell. Ha ha. Well running the service with a 2 car 158 would suggest I was wrong on far to short trains. However getting a 2 car 158 direct from Reading to Liverpool on an August Bank Holiday Monday would suggest also that the planners can get it hilariously wrong. I am guessing that using multiple units in that scenario massively reduced the flexibility.

 

[Bob Ames]

Here's something I don't understand: on Intercity routes going to London, why is it such a big deal for first class to be at the south end of the train? If it's got First Class and the train is running on time who gives a crap what end of the train first class is?

You'd certainly give a cr@p if you had a bicycle! Although reverse formation is rare on the WCML, it does happen from time to time. Fortunately, all VT station PIDs display the formation for approaching services (e.g. they display "First Class FRONT, Standard Class REAR" for a London-bound service in normal formation). I have only ever once been bowled out by reverse formation (221109 working 1K14) and although it was 'only' 5 coaches, that ranks as the most humiliating and stressful experience I have ever had on the network! The TM repeatedly shouted "FRONT!!!" at me, and passengers waiting on the platform laughed at me. Oh, and to rub salt in the wound, the dispatcher pointed towards the front like I was some clueless noob, even though I have loaded my bike on Voyagers dozens of times. Note that I had arrived in plenty of time, had checked the PIDs (nothing mentioned about reverse formation), and waited in the correct position.

 

[Altnabreac]

According to Wikipedia There is going to be a new Virgin Service to Liverpool from Glasgow in 2015.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

In terms of official endorsement of this proposed service I know that a Glasgow - Liverpool service is a long standing aspiration of Strathclyde Partnership for Transport (SPT).

If you have a look at their recent submission to the TPE / Northern Franchise Consultation you can see they explicitly endorse such a service.

Regarding the technical detail of the TPE franchise, the key points SPT would wish to make are that an objective of the new franchise should be to achieve a Glasgow/Edinburgh – Manchester journey time of 3 hours or better, and that a 2 hourly frequency to both Glasgow and Edinburgh should be maintained. Opportunities to explore direct trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Liverpool should also be explored.

Of course neither SPT nor Transport Scotland can specify cross border services and as yet I have not seen any Transport Scotland endorsement of such a service which would be needed before DfT would take such a request seriously.

One potential issue is that current proposals for HS2 look like increasing the number of services running between Carlisle and Carstairs so timetabling extra services north of Preston could actually become more difficult in the Medium Term.

 

[Mark62]

I thought there used to be a LIverpool to Edinburgh/Glasgow service many years ago. Did it not join with the corresponding Manchester to Scotland service. I don't understand why Liverpool has been effectively isolated from the cross country network. Years ago there was also the Liverpool to North Wales loco hauled service. I know there are plans to reintroduce this service in the future but it's been described as a service improvement when it's not an improvement in simply reinstating what there was before. Same with the Blackpool to London services.

 

[ian959]

If we lived in a perfect world where common sense was used on the railways, then obviously after completion of the current electrification programmes the ICWC franchise would get another 30 11 car Class 390/1s, maybe even converting the remaining 9 car Class 390/0s to 11 car Class 390/1s. They would then retain only enough Class 221s to run the existant London - Holyhead services, cascading the rest to Cross Country.

When that happened, Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh direct services would recommence and the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh direct services would transfer from TPE to ICWC and perhaps the Manchester - Birmingham only services transfer from XC to ICWC.

However the fact that Wikipedia exists and is believed tells us that we do not live in a perfect world and therefore none of this will happen.

Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh direct services should be included in the next ICWC bidding/award though.

 

[Class 170101]

The only mention of such a service has been in a TPE context (joining/splitting at Preston), but there aren't enough 350 sets.
VT might run an ECS positioning move Preston-Edge Hill this way instead of via Crewe, but it would turn the stock.

Unless of course the same train went back to Preston the next morning.

 

[Bevan Price]

I thought there used to be a LIverpool to Edinburgh/Glasgow service many years ago. Did it not join with the corresponding Manchester to Scotland service. I don't understand why Liverpool has been effectively isolated from the cross country network. Years ago there was also the Liverpool to North Wales loco hauled service. I know there are plans to reintroduce this service in the future but it's been described as a service improvement when it's not an improvement in simply reinstating what there was before. Same with the Blackpool to London services.

The Liverpool - Scotland service was never high frequency, and was steadily reduced and made less attractive to passengers. From a selection of timetables:

1975:
07:38 Liverpool - Edinburgh (arr. 11:55)
(connected at Preston with Man. Vic - Glasgow service)
09:41 Liverpool - Glasgow (arr. 13:23)
12:41 Liverpool - Edinburgh (arr. 16:50)
(connection at Carlisle St. Pancras - Leeds - Glasgow)
17:40 Liverpool - Glasgow (arr. 21:36)
(connection at Carstairs for Edinburgh)

08:00 Glasgow - Liverpool (arr. 11:46)
12:35 Edinburgh - Liverpool (arr. 16:47)
16:40 Glasgow - Liverpool (arr. 20:30)
17:55 Edinburgh - Liverpool (arr. 21:58)

1984:
07:43 Liverpool - Edinburgh
(Joined Man. Vic - Glasgow portion at Preston)
09:30 (Summer only) Liverpool - Edinburgh & Glasgow

16:20 Glasgow / 16:10 Edinburgh - Liverpool (Summer only)
18:10 Edinburgh / 18:20 Glasgow - Liverpool & Manchester.

1999:
17:00 Liverpool - Edinburgh (arr. 21:11)
06:27 Edinburgh - Liverpool (arr. 10:53)

So, not only a worse service, mostly at times not very convenient for tourists, and slower than in 1975. Hardly surprising that Liverpool / Scotland services became unattractive.

 

[Dunc108]

If it was true that Liverpool was going to have Scottish services it would be great, Liverpool always seems a bit off the beaten track to me compared to Manchester and it would help it to have more services to destinations outside the North of England. More London services would be useful for Liverpool I think as well, I find it strange that Livepool has only hourly to London but half hourly to Birmingham.

Totally agree that Manchester - Scottish services should be transferred to the Inter-City West Coast franchise and agree that it should be connected with the London - Stoke-on-Trent - Manchester services.

Liverpool - Glasgow services were never the same after Liverpool Exchange closed having to take the longer (and slower) route into Liverpool via St Helen's. Plus the direct line via Ormskirk didn't interfere with the main line between Preston & Wigan and was of course more direct and probably still is today, only hamstrung by the Preston - Ormskirk DMU slowing it down with its poor timetable. Steam hauled expresses from Exchange could achieve good speeds on the flat stretches through Maghull often topping around 80mph with a Black 5 and 7/8 MK1's. I'm not surprised the Scotland - Lime St service has had such a chequered history.
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I thought there used to be a LIverpool to Edinburgh/Glasgow service many years ago. Did it not join with the corresponding Manchester to Scotland service. I don't understand why Liverpool has been effectively isolated from the cross country network. Years ago there was also the Liverpool to North Wales loco hauled service. I know there are plans to reintroduce this service in the future but it's been described as a service improvement when it's not an improvement in simply reinstating what there was before. Same with the Blackpool to London services.

There was a 158 operated service in the early days under Virgin that did attach to a Manchester portion. I always remember catching a 17.00 Lime St - Edinburgh 2-car 158. It did previously see a '47' an air-conditioned Mk2s. (sorry that may already have been answered!)