Glasgow QS - Cowlairs

[Kingfisher200262]

I'm doing some train performance work at present and have observed that there's a 1 in 41 gradient between Glasgow Queen Street and Cowlairs.

Does anyone know whether this is (or has it in the past) been an issue for drivers, both starting from QS and braking in to QS?

Any advice from the footplate gratefully received.

 

[PaulLothian]

As the incline was originally cable-operated, I guess that it was an issue at that time

I gather cable operation carried on from 1842 (opening of line) to 1909, when it was replaced by banking engines. I believe there was an earlier attempt to use bankers, which was unsuccessful as they were damaging to track.

 

[Toad]

Quite a lot was still being banked out of there in the 80's .....

Just a bit of noise coming out of Eastfield 37's.....

Glasgow to Edinburgh 47's went up there on their own with load six/seven, but a 37 with load three/four would be banked nearly always ???

 

[route:oxford]

Quite a lot was still being banked out of there in the 80's .....

Just a bit of noise coming out of Eastfield 37's.....

Glasgow to Edinburgh 47's went up there on their own with load six/seven, but a 37 with load three/four would be banked nearly always ???

Not sure about the 37s... 27s definitely.

Have been a passenger on a 101 that was banked up Cowlairs by a 37.

 

[me123]

I've heard that it was back in the day. I'm sure I read a story somwhere about a 101 having to turn back several times. Actually, it may have been "routexford"'s story above. But I've never heard of a modern DMU struggling with it. You do notice that it climbs the hill slowly, but it always gets there in the end!

 

[rail-britain]

Not sure about the 37s...

Mid to late 1980s, the early morning Glasgow - Oban was up to six or seven coaches, hauled by a single Class 37/4, no banking loco
The Saturday only Glasgow QS through service arrived with a Class 47, then departed with the same Class 47, with a pilot loco to get back up the hill

I'm sure I read a story somwhere about a 101 having to turn back several times

Not just once, but several times
Towards the end of their life it was quite common to see a first generation leave and then trundle back in "every body off"
The usual solution was for another DMU to couple up, then drag the offending DMU off to Eastfield, the second DMU would then come back

However, I do remember a DMU failing right at the entrance to the tunnel
It was pushed back into Platform 7 by the arriving Aberdeen service
Normally such an Aberdeen would reside there for nearly two hours, however it was quickly moved to Platform 2
The spare loco from Platform 1 (as it is now) then hauled the dead DMU up to Eastfield
The same DMU reappeared later that evening, but promptly failed and ended up dumped at the end of Platform 5

 

[ChrisCooper]

With a first generation unit it would probably either be low on power (having 4 engines on a 3 car unit meant one out was not as terminal as on a modern unit, but would still be problems for steep inclines and heavy loads), had slipping brake bands on the gearbox (especially if first was slipping) or a leaky flywheel. Both the latter would give the effect of running with the clutch partially in. Modern units would likely not even attempt it with an engine out (not with passengers anyway), and they have different gearboxes that should not slip the same (unless there was a big fault or the hydralic reservoir was low). They also have slightly better power to weight ratio.

 

[rail-britain]

Modern units would likely not even attempt it with an engine out (not with passengers anyway)

I've been on a Class 158 with one engine out of action
The driver giving it laaldy "I'm noo taken this up", so another driver appeared and agreed it would make it up the hill as it was the rear engine out of action (had it been the front he advised there was no chance)
We departed at almost the same time as the Edinburgh, which passed us on the climb on the left, but the unit did make it
The signals were set so that the service had direct access to the Sprinburn Chord
On arrival at Cumbernauld it was announced the next service to Glasgow was cancelled, and the unit took off ECS towards Falkirk (presumably to Haymarket)

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Thanks a lot for all the feedback, very interesting and helpful.

 

[Toad]

37's defo.....

Me off to get me moves book from 83,84 out...

 

[D6975]

37s were definitely banked until the mid/late 80s, when a minor incident led to the cessation of banking. The Fort Bill sleeper was a real struggle without a banker, 3 Mk1s, 2 Mk2s, 2 Mk3 sleepers. I had 37425 on the sleepers in 1988 and it only just made it, wheel slip, flames from the exhaust and the engine tripping out repeatedly. 37425 was a bit of a lemon though, other tractors didn't make such hard work of it.

 

[dubscottie]

They tried to keep the DBSO's at the Glasgow end of the push-pull sets so the Guard would be at the rear should something go wrong.

Trains where sometimes banked as a way of getting the incoming loco back to Eastfield without taking up another path. (Queen Street did not have bi-directional working at the time I think)

I remember as a kid that any HST that had 1 Power Car out had to be towed from Inverkeithing to the Forth Bridge/Edinburgh (another steep climb) but have seen many slowly going up the bank on one PC only.

 

[rail-britain]

I remember as a kid that any HST that had 1 Power Car out had to be towed from Inverkeithing to the Forth Bridge/Edinburgh (another steep climb) but have seen many slowly going up the bank on one PC only.

I worked on HSTs between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and can only remember one that was hauled due to complete failure
Getting up the bank with the rear power car failed was not such an issue, but with the front power car failed was an issue
As a result the HST would make its way to Dundee and then await for a loco to be attached (which usually came from Perth)
If a loco was not available, then the HST would continue unassisted

 

[matchmaker]

The 1969 Sectional Appendix has a table showing how many engines a DMU had to have in operation to climb Cowlairs. If there weren't sufficient, the unit had to be banked.

An HST with one power car isn't allowed north of Blair Atholl without assistance.

 

[rail-britain]

An HST with one power car isn't allowed north of Blair Atholl without assistance

During the late 1980s you could take bets at Edinburgh on the Inverness - Kings Cross HST having a Class 37 or Class 47 on the front
If it was on-time by Perth, then no
If it was more than 60 minutes late, then yes

 

[MacCookie]

An HST with one power car isn't allowed north of Blair Atholl without assistance.

I think the rules on that may have been changed. You'll need to check the current Sectional Appendix though.

Ewan

 

[matchmaker]

I think the rules on that may have been changed. You'll need to check the current Sectional Appendix though.

Ewan

Could be. My SA is several years old.

 

[rail-britain]

The restriction is northbound, if the HST arrives in Perth with one power car then it may not proceed
However, this is a TOC policy

A similar restriction used to apply for northbound Aberdeen services
If the HST had simply ran out of fuel then it would be allowed to continue
If the HST has a travelling technician and confirms a repair can be effected at Aberdeen, this it would also be allowed to continue
Otherwise it should not proceed beyond Dundee and return to Edinburgh
Again, this a TOC policy

 

[dalmahoyhill]

part of the problem of getting up cowlairs grade may be adhesion? the whole incline is in tunnel. i would guess its fairly damp, no normally cant seal masonry tunnels to prevent water ingress. i certainly noted when i have been through it on the train that concrete slab track has been installed.

a secondary question would be does anyone know if the slab track was design to give clearance for catenary for the electrification?

 

[route101]

Never noticed the Concrete Slab in Cowlairs ..... The Tunnel is Damp and StiNKY.