Glasgow parcels station, Ordsall Lane & Empty vans

[Magdalia]

I believe it did run as a passenger train for part of the way; The Peter Watts publications 1H80 and 1H81 (detailing all loco-hauled passenger trains) show 1D50 1014 Perth-Motherwell, however in the 1982 edition it had disappeared, which corresponds to both the comments above. Why it ran at some times and not others, and when it did why only for that particular segment of the journey, is a mystery however !

I have checked the all line timetables for 1979 and 1982, and 1014 Perth to Motherwell does not appear in either.

In 1979 there was a 1210 Glasgow-Euston, which in 1980 and 1981 departed at 1205 to insert a pick up call at Motherwell and provide a very good connection from Perth. But in 1982 the Motherwell stop was removed and departure time from Glasgow reverted to 1210.

1014 Perth to Motherwell, together with the extra Motherwell call for the 1205/1210 Glasgow-Euston, look like an experiment that was regarded as a failure.

 

[Gloster]

(The loaded) Newspaper trains were always Class 1 trains and were, along with Postals, regarded by signalmen, Control, etc. as among the most important Class 1 trains when it came to priority at junctions etc. Officially, all Class 1 were equal, but in practice some were more equal than others.

 

[Magdalia]

Punctual running of News and Postal trains was critical to home deliveries.

I have done morning paper rounds before school, and the official time I was allowed to work was from 0700 to 0800. My papers came on the 0400 from Liverpool Street, which arrived Cambridge at 0550.

Between 0550 and 0700 the papers had to be unloaded, distributed to newsagents by van, and sorted for home delivery rounds. Late arrival of the train messed everything up.

The Royal Mail letter post was also delivered at breakfast time in those days, and would have operated to a similarly tight schedule.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

This one has me curious, please bare with me...

From my 1962 summer WTT:

I can see daily ECS trains running from Glasgow parcels station to Ordsall Lane - 2 05pm (Glasgow) daily taking empty vans back.

Firstly, Glasgow parcels station - was this part of Glasgow Central? or was this a separate place? I don't know the area at all.

Secondly, Ordsall Lane, where is that? Salford, Manchester?
The route the train takes is down the S&C, then Hellifield / Blackburn / Bolton to Ordsall Lane SO. The SX train disappears at Blackburn.

Thirdly, why would you take empty vans all the way back from Glasgow?

Last, I can see express passenger trains running up to Glasgow Central from either Manchester Exchange or Victoria, but I don't see any specific parcel trains. I presume the loaded parcel vans were attached to the passenger trains?

All trains listed above are steam hauled.

Thanks,
A

 

[Andy873]

Officially, all Class 1 were equal, but in practice some were more equal than others.

I did wonder about that, wonder if ever two newspaper trains met at the same junction at the same time which one would get priority?

I have done morning paper rounds before school

Me too, so these trains had to get there on time ready for us to deliver them. There are several listed newspaper trains in my WTT's, all of course class 1 and usually in the early hours of the morning.

 

[Gloster]

I did wonder about that, wonder if ever two newspaper train met at the same junction at the same time which one would get priority?

This would rarely, if ever, happen as Newspaper trains spread out from the major printing cities: London, Manchester and (to a lesser extent) Glasgow, so their routes would not cross. In such an event Control would be watching the situation (unless there was a Royal about Newspaper workings would be the number one priority) and would advise the signalman as to which one should have priority. Otherwise, the signalman would make the decision based on his knowledge. But, as said, it quite possibly never happened.

 

[Andy873]

This would rarely, if ever, happen as Newspaper trains spread out from the major printing cities: London, Manchester and (to a lesser extent) Glasgow, so their routes would not cross. In such an event Control would be watching the situation (unless there was a Royal about Newspaper workings would be the number one priority) and would advise the signalman as to which one should have priority. Otherwise, the signalman would make the decision based on his knowledge. But, as said, it quite possibly never happened.

Probably it didn't happen, but I could see that an express passenger train would have to make way for the newspaper one.

We do of course remember newspaper trains, seeing vans with "Newspapers" on them but to a younger generation who use to the Internet it must be a strange concept.

At its peak, there must have been many tens of thousands of copies distributed this way every day, if not more, that's a lot of trains.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Probably it didn't happen, but I could see that an express passenger train would have to make way for the newspaper one.

We do of course remember newspaper trains, seeing vans with "Newspapers" on them but to a younger generation who use to the Internet it must be a strange concept.

At its peak, there must have been many tens of thousands of copies distributed this way every day, if not more, that's a lot of trains.

Probably even tens of thousands on one train!

 

[Merle Haggard]

At its peak, there must have been many tens of thousands of copies distributed this way every day, if not more, that's a lot of trains.

In the 1950s - 1960s it was over 1 1/2 million national newspapers each weekday, most of which went by rail.

 

[Magdalia]

In the 1970s, when I was delivering newspapers, the Sun and the Mirror each had daily circulation of between 3 and 4 million. The Mail, Express and Telegraph were all more than 1 million. Total National daily newspaper circulation was more than 10 million.

 

[Andy873]

In the 1970s, when I was delivering newspapers, the Sun and the Mirror each had daily circulation of between 3 and 4 million. The Mail, Express and Telegraph were all more than 1 million. Total National daily newspaper circulation was more than 10 million.

Yes, lots of papers.

I wonder just how many copies you could fit into a single Mark 1 van? I believe the weight limit was around 30 tons? and the max speed was for many up to 100 m.p.h.

Even a few copies weigh heavy of your shoulder as a paper boy.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I wonder just how many copies you could fit into a single Mark 1 van? I believe the weight limit was around 30 tons? and the max speed was for many up to 100 m.p.h.

I think the weight limit was more like 10 or 12 tons in a BG or GUV.

 

[Magdalia]

I wonder just how many copies you could fit into a single Mark 1 van? I believe the weight limit was around 30 tons? and the max speed was for many up to 100 m.p.h.

Even a few copies weigh heavy of your shoulder as a paper boy.

GUVs (bogied vans), and newspaper vans converted from GUVs, usually weighed 30 tons and could carry 14 tons of load.

CCTs (4 wheeled vans), and newspaper vans converted from CCTs, usually weighed 17 tons and could carry 10 tons of load.

In a very unscientific experiment, using the newspapers I have here waiting for recycling, about 7000 newspapers weigh a ton!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Did this run part-way as a passenger train at one time? Back in c.1982 I caught a mid-morning train from Perth made up of one BSK (Brake Second) and numerous Full Brakes and parcel vans. I assume it was mostly empty newspaper vans and the BSK had carried sorters northbound. We changed locos at Mossend (to an 85 I think) and stopped at Motherwell where all the passengers alighted. The train then departed southbound purely as a non passenger service.

By "all the passengers alighted" I basically mean me!

I believe it did run as a passenger train for part of the way; The Peter Watts publications 1H80 and 1H81 (detailing all loco-hauled passenger trains) show 1D50 1014 Perth-Motherwell, however in the 1982 edition it had disappeared, which corresponds to both the comments above. Why it ran at some times and not others, and when it did why only for that particular segment of the journey, is a mystery however !

1980/81 ScR PTM - 10.14 Perth to Motherwell formed BSK CK (but on summer Sats BSK CK BSK) 'remainder of train formation consists of NPCCS', max load 560t forward ECS - to Carlisle for the coaches and presumably Red Bank for vans. The coaches worked back on the 'Down Caledonian TPO', 20.45 Carlisle to Perth.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I was surprised to see Glasgow Parcels Station appearing in a timetable as early as 1962.

Previously, I'd thought Salkeld Street parcels depot (re-purposed redundant Eglington St Goods Yard) only opened in the late 60s.

IIRC the Parcels Station was intended to keep parcels trains & parcels handling away from Glasgow Central and Queen St stations following closure of St Enoch and Buchanan St in 1966 (I believe part of St Enoch remained in use for parcels trains for around a year after closure to passengers - a 1967 WTT shows a Euston to Glasgow St Enoch parcels train).

Salkeld Street opened as a parcels depot in 1958, it had previously been a general Goods depot

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Salkeld Street opened as a parcels depot in 1958, it had previously been a general Goods depot

I have checked the ScR PTMs for 1958 - Summer (June to Sept), and 1960/61 (Winter) in respect of vans on the night trains to the north from Glasgow Buchanan St.

In Summer 58 vans for Elgin, Wick and Kyle from Glasgow Central on the 11.15 p.m. to Inverness were noted as having been received Buchanan St on the 8.25pm from Central, with vans Central to Dundee West and Aberdeen received on the same trip for the 11.0 pm to Aberdeen.

No PTMs available for the intervening years, but by 1960/61 vans for the same destinations were noted as received Buchanan Street off the 8.10 pm from Glasgow Parcels Station.

In the 70s such vans went direct from Glasgow Parcels to Perth for attachment to the onward passenger services.

Also in 60/61 a 9.25 (pm) from Glasgow Parcels provided vans for attachment to the 10.20 and 10.25 to Euston - the latter van originating in Greenock (!) but in summer '58 the Greenock van arrived in Central on a parcels train from Greenock, and any Glasgow to Euston vans were from Central.

Fast forward to the mid/late 70s and I recall vans ex Glasgow Parcels attaching to the front of the 22.50 to Nottingham and 23.55 to Bristol well after the ECS had been platformed, and although the PTMs do not record the timing of these transfer the 1974 Glasgow Central Platform Arrangements note a 22.23 from Glasgow PS arriving 22.28 with 2 GUV for Nottingham (I recall this transfer was done by the train engine generally a class 45 (until banned)), and a 23.10 from Glasgow PS arriving 23.15 with a BG for Bristol, worked by Glasgow PS Pilot loco.

Accepting 1958 as the year Salkeld St became a Parcels Depot, the above would suggest this occurred in the latter part of that year.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the 1970s, when I was delivering newspapers, the Sun and the Mirror each had daily circulation of between 3 and 4 million. The Mail, Express and Telegraph were all more than 1 million. Total National daily newspaper circulation was more than 10 million.

In the 1950s - 1960s it was over 1 1/2 million national newspapers each weekday, most of which went by rail.

I looked on the web at a bar-chart and got the decimal point in the wrong place

The total circulation was 15 million - as high as 20 million in the early 1950s.


Certainly, newspaper trains from Euston and Paddington had sorting tables in at least some vans. These were fairly big and heavy - a bit of a challenge to transfer them when the C&W red-card a sorting van just before Willesden departure time. The gangway GUVs were quite a late in innovation, so it must have been BGs on the LM (I think, with the security cage removed) in earlier days but on the W.R. it was gangway Siphon Gs, to which the P.T.M. gave the code SG. Newspaper trains conveying no passenger carrying vehicles did not appear in the P.T.M. Circulars. The sorters were not railway employees and so fares were charged. Just wished I had not thrown away all the paperwork as soon as it was finished with...

 

[d9009alycidon]

I have checked the ScR PTMs for 1958 - Summer (June to Sept), and 1960/61 (Winter) in respect of vans on the night trains to the north from Glasgow Buchanan St.

In Summer 58 vans for Elgin, Wick and Kyle from Glasgow Central on the 11.15 p.m. to Inverness were noted as having been received Buchanan St on the 8.25pm from Central, with vans Central to Dundee West and Aberdeen received on the same trip for the 11.0 pm to Aberdeen.

No PTMs available for the intervening years, but by 1960/61 vans for the same destinations were noted as received Buchanan Street off the 8.10 pm from Glasgow Parcels Station.

In the 70s such vans went direct from Glasgow Parcels to Perth for attachment to the onward passenger services.

Also in 60/61 a 9.25 (pm) from Glasgow Parcels provided vans for attachment to the 10.20 and 10.25 to Euston - the latter van originating in Greenock (!) but in summer '58 the Greenock van arrived in Central on a parcels train from Greenock, and any Glasgow to Euston vans were from Central.

Fast forward to the mid/late 70s and I recall vans ex Glasgow Parcels attaching to the front of the 22.50 to Nottingham and 23.55 to Bristol well after the ECS had been platformed, and although the PTMs do not record the timing of these transfer the 1974 Glasgow Central Platform Arrangements note a 22.23 from Glasgow PS arriving 22.28 with 2 GUV for Nottingham (I recall this transfer was done by the train engine generally a class 45 (until banned)), and a 23.10 from Glasgow PS arriving 23.15 with a BG for Bristol, worked by Glasgow PS Pilot loco.

Accepting 1958 as the year Salkeld St became a Parcels Depot, the above would suggest this occurred in the latter part of that year.

My mistake, just checked through my library and according to "the Illustrated history of Glasgow's Railways" by WAC Smith and Paul Anderson, It was 6th July 1959,

 

[Cheshire Scot]

My mistake, just checked through my library and according to "the Illustrated history of Glasgow's Railways" by WAC Smith and Paul Anderson, It was 6th July 1959,

Hardly a mistake, more a very near miss though, well done for getting within a year of it prior to checking it in print!

EDIT: I do wonder if the timing was to get the parcels traffic out of Central prior to the commencement of electrification work for the Cathcart Circle.

 

[Taunton]

Railscot website states Eglinton St Goods Yard until 1970 and Salkeld St Parcels Depot 1970 to 1990. Was there perhaps an earlier Parcels Depot in the City?

In 1973 I sent a "To Be Called For" parcel from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen. I recall the clerk in the office saying it would be half the cost if it was sent "from Eglinton Street", presumably on a specific parcels service rather than by passenger train in the van. It seems that old names were dying hard, and the railway staff continued to refer to it by its old name.

The routing of the parcels train from Eglinton Street to the Aberdeen line is interesting to ponder.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In 1973 I sent a "To Be Called For" parcel from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen. I recall the clerk in the office saying it would be half the cost if it was sent "from Eglinton Street", presumably on a specific parcels service rather than by passenger train in the van. It seems that old names were dying hard, and the railway staff continued to refer to it by its old name.

The routing of the parcels train from Eglinton Street to the Aberdeen line is interesting to ponder.

Was Queen St perhaps Red Star only for which a premium price was paid even just for station to station (by passenger train)? Perhaps an old hand referring to Eglinton St or perhaps a younger person who had picked up the terminology - I recall a twenty something year old Guard referring to a Caley Brake Van (which was actually an ex LMS one).

I have a 78/79 WTT for the routes via Stirling (and via Falkirk) in which the only down Parcels trains on the Stirling route are 08.17 Stirling to Perth DMU (!), 11.34 Edinburgh to Aberdeen via Stirling and Perth, a 17.50 Carlisle to Perth and 21.25 Glasgow PS to Perth - all with traffic stops at Stirling, and the latter first appears in the station bank at Cowlairs Box so would have come City Union and Springburn. As noted in an earlier post the Glasgow PS to Perth train conveyed vans which went forward on passenger trains at 01.05 for Dundee (detach) and Aberdeen and 01.10 for Thurso (Wick in an earlier era) and Kyle - these would no doubt also have conveyed traffic for Inverness unloaded during the one hour plus transfer to forward north services.

 

[d9009alycidon]

The routing of the parcels train from Eglinton Street to the Aberdeen line is interesting to ponder.

The same source as I got the opening date gives the route as being via the Springburn branch and the City Union line. Trains were propelled to and from around Shields Junction where reversal took place

 

[MadMac]

In 1973 I sent a "To Be Called For" parcel from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen. I recall the clerk in the office saying it would be half the cost if it was sent "from Eglinton Street", presumably on a specific parcels service rather than by passenger train in the van. It seems that old names were dying hard, and the railway staff continued to refer to it by its old name.

The routing of the parcels train from Eglinton Street to the Aberdeen line is interesting to ponder.

There was a Through Siding behind Smithy Lye carriage sidings. Trains from Salkeld Street could propel onto the City Union and head North from there.

 

[6Gman]

I have checked the all line timetables for 1979 and 1982, and 1014 Perth to Motherwell does not appear in either.

In 1979 there was a 1210 Glasgow-Euston, which in 1980 and 1981 departed at 1205 to insert a pick up call at Motherwell and provide a very good connection from Perth. But in 1982 the Motherwell stop was removed and departure time from Glasgow reverted to 1210.

1014 Perth to Motherwell, together with the extra Motherwell call for the 1205/1210 Glasgow-Euston, look like an experiment that was regarded as a failure.

Well, if I was the only passenger to alight - and I headed straight back into Glasgow - I'm not surprised it was a failure!

 

[GLC]

Slightly off topic, but I have memories of when I was wee, on the approach to Glasgow Central, passing buffer stops. I’ll say near the old Bridge Street station building but it could have been anywhere along that main entry point. Have I completely made this up or were there sidings within that main funnel into central?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Slightly off topic, but I have memories of when I was wee, on the approach to Glasgow Central, passing buffer stops. I’ll say near the old Bridge Street station building but it could have been anywhere along that main entry point. Have I completely made this up or were there sidings within that main funnel into central?

Yes, the 2 through sidings next to the Bridge Street Building and one through siding in the middle are still there but previously there were more in the middle which were dead end sidings with buffer stops. .

 

[Springs Branch]

Fast forward to the mid/late 70s and I recall vans ex Glasgow Parcels attaching to the front of the 22.50 to Nottingham and 23.55 to Bristol well after the ECS had been platformed, and although the PTMs do not record the timing of these transfer the 1974 Glasgow Central Platform Arrangements note a 22.23 from Glasgow PS arriving 22.28 with 2 GUV for Nottingham (I recall this transfer was done by the train engine generally a class 45 (until banned)), and a 23.10 from Glasgow PS arriving 23.15 with a BG for Bristol, worked by Glasgow PS Pilot loco.

The same source as I got the opening date gives the route as being via the Springburn branch and the City Union line. Trains were propelled to and from around Shields Junction where reversal took place

Operation of trains into and out of Glasgow Parcels seemed to have involved a good number of propelling movements, for a fair distance multiple times per day - whether to/from Shields Junction in one direction, or through the complex approach to Glasgow Central in the other. Often with full length trains.

As well as the local moves detailed by @Cheshire Scot above, in 1975 (the year after northern WCML electrification), on weekdays there were five dedicated long-distance parcels trains heading north across the border, destination Glasgow Parcels Station:

• 6S16 06:05 Carlisle - Glasgow P.S.
• 4S17 11:10 Rugby - Glasgow P.S.
• 4S14 19:10 Crewe South Yard - Glasgow P.S.
• 3S11 21:35 Euston - Glasgow P.S.
• 3S15 20:25 Bristol - Glasgow P.S.

Three of these were electrically-hauled via Beattock, two ran via the G&SW with diesel traction from Carlisle. A similar number originated from Salkeld St in the opposite direction.

Presumably the electrically-hauled trains used the Clydesdale Line (Polmadie Larkfield Junction to Shields Junction) to access the Parcels Station?

So was the Clydesdale Line and the Smithy Lye through siding electrified in 1974 as part of the Electric Scots scheme?
Or was diesel/electric changeover needed in the Motherwell or Polmadie area?

(O.S. Nock's Electric: Euston to Glasgow gives detailed accounts of civil engineering & signalling work on the WCML approaches to Glasgow in that period, but doesn't seem to mention electrification of this particular stretch)

 

[d9009alycidon]

Operation of trains into and out of Glasgow Parcels seemed to have involved a good number of propelling movements, for a fair distance multiple times per day - whether to/from Shields Junction in one direction, or through the complex approach to Glasgow Central in the other. Often with full length trains.

As well as the local moves detailed by @Cheshire Scot above, in 1975 (the year after northern WCML electrification), on weekdays there were five dedicated long-distance parcels trains heading north across the border, destination Glasgow Parcels Station:

• 6S16 06:05 Carlisle - Glasgow P.S.
• 4S17 11:10 Rugby - Glasgow P.S.
• 4S14 19:10 Crewe South Yard - Glasgow P.S.
• 3S11 21:35 Euston - Glasgow P.S.
• 3S15 20:25 Bristol - Glasgow P.S.

Three of these were electrically-hauled via Beattock, two ran via the G&SW with diesel traction from Carlisle. A similar number originated from Salkeld St in the opposite direction.

Presumably the electrically-hauled trains used the Clydesdale Line (Polmadie Larkfield Junction to Shields Junction) to access the Parcels Station?

So was the Clydesdale Line and the Smithy Lye through siding electrified in 1974 as part of the Electric Scots scheme?
Or was diesel/electric changeover needed in the Motherwell or Polmadie area?

(O.S. Nock's Electric: Euston to Glasgow gives detailed accounts of civil engineering & signalling work on the WCML approaches to Glasgow in that period, but doesn't seem to mention electrification of this particular stretch)

The Clydesdale Line was due to be done when the WCML was done, but the route didn't open to electric locos until 1976 due to the collapse of West Street tunnel, some blamed the installation of the paved track for the collapse. The Smithy Lye through siding had been done earlier, in either 1962 or 67 as the overheads were old style 1960s catenary supports

 

[MadMac]

The Clydesdale Line was due to be done when the WCML was done, but the route didn't open to electric locos until 1976 due to the collapse of West Street tunnel, some blamed the installation of the paved track for the collapse. The Smithy Lye through siding had been done earlier, in either 1962 or 67 as the overheads were old style 1960s catenary supports

It’s not shown as wired as of 1962. In any event, academic as anything going that way would be going on to the non-electrified City Union.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Operation of trains into and out of Glasgow Parcels seemed to have involved a good number of propelling movements, for a fair distance multiple times per day - whether to/from Shields Junction in one direction, or through the complex approach to Glasgow Central in the other. Often with full length trains.

Interesting for the longer propelling movements from Smithy Lye into Central (loco leading out of Salkeld St then reverse), the BG for the Bristol the Guard could ride in and have a half a coach length better observation of the route ahead (through an open window) than the driver to use the brake valve in an emergency but the two GUVs for Nottingham had no such benefit, the driver being two GUV lengths away from the route ahead. Such moves would be unthinkable in todays culture.

Presumably there was a Sectional Appendix entry authorising such moves back then and probably with a maximum length stipulated.

Another regular propelling move in Central station throat was when a portioned working had a long turnround the train loco would propel the set to Bridge St loops, run round and in due course propel the set back into the station. These 'half' sets (six or seven vehicles) normally only had one brake vehicle, sometimes on one end or sometimes in the middle. Such sets on shorter turnrounds re-engined in the platform.

I recall hearing a claim Central ECS moves from/to Larkfield CS used to sometimes propel but am unable to vouch for this although perhaps someone else can.