Glasgow - Fort William - Mallaig service

[Kite159]

I'm surprised that Dalmuir hasn't been dropped as a call seeing as a 6 coach set is local door only and can cause large dwells.

 

[Highlandspring]

I'm surprised that Dalmuir hasn't been dropped as a call seeing as a 6 coach set is local door only and can cause large dwells.

Agreed!

 

[kylemore]

NTMU Kyle!

The issue with the MkV formations would be the choice of motive power, there isn't anything with a suitable RA apart from the 37s although they would make very, very nice WHL sets.

Like James James post above I suggested a split HST system with stripped down ex156 units in the middle nose to nose. This would still enable the split at Crianlarich and feature plenty of cycle/baggage space/buffet in the ex156 driving coach. As usual this was subjected to bouts of laughter from the 'cant do' brigade when all your talking about is stipping down a 156 and converting it to HST phase supply and control desk. Expensive? Maybe but cheaper than custom built units surely by a long shot, it would at least give you decent train to be used for another 10-15 years. The issue with this is the woefully low tractive effort of the Class 43.

Another option which springs to mind is a push/pull emu system utilising the soon to be introduced 385s and heavily modified Class 73's. This gives the ability to use the units anywhere on the network and run them as emus south of Craigendoran. I would think the interior's would have to be customised though as the 385s are very spartan IMO, micro buffet/shop inplace of trolley, more luggage space. As for expense surely it could be part of the current 385 order and I can see Hitachi offering a few for free or heavily discounted prices due the the recent fiasco.

All of these suggestions are technically possible, anything that costs more than £100 seems to be regarded by some members as hideously expensive and therefore doomed to fail.
If you build them people will come otherwise no one is going to use a clapped out basic service that hasn't changed *cough* downgraded since 1989 especially now the dreaded BUS excels in terms comfort and timings!

The rail service in these areas should be used as a tool for improving the community, expanding tourism and other social benefits, not profit!

Maybe things will change in the future when my former employer Caledonian MacBrayne get the franchise

I think the answer is just get the Swiss in!

Oh and I see we share a former employer - maybe Calmac could take over the West Highland lines as a start - they are after all fairly self contained and there is a lot of ferry connection traffic despite the best efforts of the operators to make that as difficult as possible!

Mind you Calmac are going to have their hands full soon when the Glen Sannox/802 fiasco finally breaks! To be fair it's not really their fault.

 

[GrimShady]

I think the answer is just get the Swiss in!

Oh and I see we share a former employer - maybe Calmac could take over the West Highland lines as a start - they are after all fairly self contained and there is a lot of ferry connection traffic despite the best efforts of the operators to make that as difficult as possible!

Mind you Calmac are going to have their hands full soon when the Glen Sannox/802 fiasco finally breaks! To be fair it's not really their fault.

Looks like it! The Dutch obviously aren't up to the task!

Cal Mac these days are very, very interested in attracting new business i.e. tourism and not just operating a lifeline service, the railway is the natural extension of that.

 

[InOban]

Tourism isn't new business. It's the existing business. Developing new business would be taking steps grow All Year use by the residents.

 

[Altnabreac]

A fleet of Stadler DMUs or Bi Modes with Panoramic windows is the obvious long term solution for WHL, Far North, Stranraer and possibly Dumfries.

By the time the next franchise is being let there should be a much clearer picture on what is happening with the rolling programme of electrification and which lines will be left without wires in the longer term. The HSTs, 156s and 158s will also be reaching the end of their useful lives so new stock will be needed.

At present though its just a wee bit too soon for a new stock order specifically for the scenic lines. The important thing is to get all the rail user groups, regional transport partnerships and politicians on the same page now in demanding that new scenic stock specifically designed for these lines is part of the specification for the next franchise. It needs to be a long term process to get these sort of changes made.

 

[GrimShady]

I can't see anything like that happening until at least 2025.

Anyone on the inside know what these refurbished 156s will consist of, and will the 153s be used as center cars?

 

[scotraildriver]

Here is one of the refurbished 156s although none of the WHL ones are done yet. Unfortunately ironing boards seats although personally I don't mind them.

 

[GrimShady]

Here is one of the refurbished 156s although none of the WHL ones are done yet. Unfortunately ironing boards seats although personally I don't mind them.

Thanks for the pic scotraildriver.

What's the story on the 158s going to the WHL?

Have you heard anything about the reuse of 153s?

 

[scotraildriver]

Nothing about 153s but 158s still the plan.

 

[pt_mad]

Here is one of the refurbished 156s although none of the WHL ones are done yet. Unfortunately ironing boards seats although personally I don't mind them.

Looks quite good to be fair. At least there are armrests and you can see out of the windows quite well.

 

[GrimShady]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...itched-to-trains-to-ease-bike-crush-1-4755533

 

[kilonewton]

At present Platforms 2,3,5,6 & 7 should be able to handle 7 car formations if memory serves.

Platform : Current : Future
1 : 4 : 4
2 : 6 : 7
3 : 7 : 8
4 : 7 : 8
5 : 6 : 7
6 : 6 : 6
7 : 8 : 8

 

[Killingworth]

This thread brings back waves of nostalgia! My father loved railways but my mother didn't. In 1958 he took me on a Scottish rail tour which included Mallaig-Glasgow and we took lunch in the dining car as we crossed Rannoch Moor. Main course was sole, and as we were the only diners we got excellent service. Father was quite excited because we were in an ex-LNER 3 carriage articulated set which seemed excessive even then. I suspect restaurant car service was withdrawn very soon after this. Maybe that was why we went. I don't recall many other passengers on that train, or from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh.

In those days a lot of empty coaches were being dragged around every day. No wonder Beeching had so much to say about uneconomic railways.

All the Highland lines are challenging to manage. If run non-stop from end to end they probably couldn't compete with road for speed. Tourism is very up and down, and weather doesn't help, however the Jacobite seems to load well.

 

[theironroad]

This thread brings back waves of nostalgia! My father loved railways but my mother didn't. In 1958 he took me on a Scottish rail tour which included Mallaig-Glasgow and we took lunch in the dining car as we crossed Rannoch Moor. Main course was sole, and as we were the only diners we got excellent service. Father was quite excited because we were in an ex-LNER 3 carriage articulated set which seemed excessive even then. I suspect restaurant car service was withdrawn very soon after this. Maybe that was why we went. I don't recall many other passengers on that train, or from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh.

In those days a lot of empty coaches were being dragged around every day. No wonder Beeching had so much to say about uneconomic railways.

All the Highland lines are challenging to manage. If run non-stop from end to end they probably couldn't compete with road for speed. Tourism is very up and down, and weather doesn't help, however the Jacobite seems to load well.

A lot of the Jacobite popularity is Harry potter related. However, if you're in the lochaber area for a few days, then I guess it makes a nice half daytrippers anyway.

Certainly fort William to Glasgow is slower by train than car.

 

[InOban]

And it's much slower and less frequent than the coach, which is free to holders of Scottish bus passes.

 

[jimm]

This thread brings back waves of nostalgia! My father loved railways but my mother didn't. In 1958 he took me on a Scottish rail tour which included Mallaig-Glasgow and we took lunch in the dining car as we crossed Rannoch Moor. Main course was sole, and as we were the only diners we got excellent service. Father was quite excited because we were in an ex-LNER 3 carriage articulated set which seemed excessive even then. I suspect restaurant car service was withdrawn very soon after this. Maybe that was why we went. I don't recall many other passengers on that train, or from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh.

In those days a lot of empty coaches were being dragged around every day. No wonder Beeching had so much to say about uneconomic railways.

All the Highland lines are challenging to manage. If run non-stop from end to end they probably couldn't compete with road for speed. Tourism is very up and down, and weather doesn't help, however the Jacobite seems to load well.

West Highland restaurant car service was longer lived. I seem to recall it survived into the early to mid-1970s - perhaps someone can confirm this. Worked up from Glasgow on the sleeper service, then did a round trip Fort William to Mallaig in the middle of the day, then back to Glasgow with the late afternoon service that included the southbound sleepers.

Pictures from 1968 of a Mk1 RB in trains on the West Highland Line here http://www.eastbank.org.uk/diamond.htm

 

[Essan]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...itched-to-trains-to-ease-bike-crush-1-4755533

Britain’s first rail carriages reserved for bikes and outdoor equipment are to run on one of Scotland’s busiest tourist lines from next summer, The Scotsman has learned.

An extra coach is expected to be coupled to ScotRail trains to ease overcrowding on the West Highland Line between Glasgow, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig.

A similar experiment may be tried on lines between Inverness and Kyle of Lochalsh and Wick.

Transport minister Humza Yousaf said the Scottish Government’s Transport Scotland agency was finalising work with ScotRail to secure five single-carriage class 153 trains.

These will be reconfigured to accommodate cyclists and their bikes, and other outdoor sports fans and equipment.

At last! Ever since sprinters were first introduced on the line there has been an issue with lack of space for bike and luggage, and with mountain biking now almost as popular as hillwalking (saw more cyclists than walkers on my recent trip to the Cairngorms) there's more need than ever. Someone finally thinking!

 

[GrimShady]

I agree! The beginning of the end to 30 years of crap plastic and no imagination!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

And it's much slower and less frequent than the coach, which is free to holders of Scottish bus passes.

Though I qualify for a free coach trip, I wouldn’t go to Fort William by coach even if someone paid me for doing it.
(It so happens that I have in fact once been paid to do exactly that, but that’s neither here nor there )

For me, the attraction is the rail journey.
Without being too unkind to Fort Bill, as a Scottish resident I can find many other places with heavy rain and rather more to do somewhat nearer.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm surprised that Dalmuir hasn't been dropped as a call seeing as a 6 coach set is local door only and can cause large dwells.

A route planner from here (on the North Clyde Line) will almost always give Dalmuir as the place to change onto WHL: for the  1016 from Dalmuir, there's a Rutherglen to Balloch train that arrives at  1009; logically it'd make more sense to change at Dumbarton Central (because it's a same-platform interchange), but with the extra stops on the North Clyde train to there, it arrives only four minutes before the WHL train, under the five minute minimum connection time.

There's also other times of days where from the North Clyde Line you'd have a very long wait at Dumbarton Central to change onto the WHL, given to Dalmuir you can get not only Helensburgh Central terminators but also those to Dalmuir and Balloch.

 

[InOban]

I don't understand why Dalmuir should be local door only, by which I assume you're implying that it's SDO, and that a 6-coach WHL train is too long. Is it any longer than a 6-coach electric train?
And of course Balloch trains also call at Dumbarton.
The advantage of Dalmuir is that trains via Central LL terminate there. You can avoid the trek from LL to QS by taking an electric to Dalmuir, although it doesn't save time.

The problem with most North Clyde stations is that they date from before the days of large car parks and they don't have good, or any, bus services. But that's off topic.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes a 6 coach 156 is 18m longer than a 6 car electric. The rear coach is off the platform so single door operation is required. Southbound the train can just squeeze on if the driver goes closer to the signal than permitted. In practise most do this as single door is a pain but technically we shouldnt.

 

[InOban]

Thanks for that. I never realised. Personally, and this is way off topic, I think they should start a program of lengthening the N Clyde platforms - the station boxes at QS and Charing Cross are quite a bit longer so that the steam engines were outside.

 

[scotraildriver]

There's really not much point. 6 car trains on the North Clyde are more than sufficient, and given the tiny numbers that board WHL services at Dalmuir it would probably be better just not to call there. It's odd that the sleeper calls there too, virtually no one gets on or off that either.

 

[GrimShady]

There's really not much point. 6 car trains on the North Clyde are more than sufficient, and given the tiny numbers that board WHL services at Dalmuir it would probably be better just not to call there. It's odd that the sleeper calls there too, virtually no one gets on or off that either.

Isn't this due to the Sleeper counting as part of the first day service?

 

[47271]

West Highland restaurant car service was longer lived. I seem to recall it survived into the early to mid-1970s - perhaps someone can confirm this. Worked up from Glasgow on the sleeper service, then did a round trip Fort William to Mallaig in the middle of the day, then back to Glasgow with the late afternoon service that included the southbound sleepers.

Pictures from 1968 of a Mk1 RB in trains on the West Highland Line here http://www.eastbank.org.uk/diamond.htm

I checked this one with my dad, who was all over the highlands in the period, and he reckons that the mk1 kitchen/restaurants may have lasted on the WHL until the end of the Class 27s on the route in late 1980/early 1981. So conceivably even until the mk1 sleepers went, which must have been about the same time as Class 37s took over.

He says this because he has a crystal clear memory of standing on Morar platform mid morning during Easter 1980 and looking through an open carriage window at a half used loaf of Mothers Pride on a high shelf, it's funny the the things that stick in your mind. This could only have been in a proper kitchen.

Just returning to Fort William-Mallaig local trains, he says that at the time they were generally made up of, as well as a 27, a mk1 open second and an early mk2 corridor brake first. Even in high summer they weren't at all busy he says, what an appealing thought!

Finally, one other funny memory from the Mallaig line of the time, I think that I might have posted it somewhere on here before. It too happened around 1980 - and I was there but too tiny to realise it was happening.

An afternoon Fort William-Mallaig train approaches Arisaig, at that time still staffed and manually signalled. It pulls up at an unexpected danger signal by the unattended box just east of the station. Nothing is scheduled to be passing eastbound. The driver blasts the horn for a minute or two but gets no response.

A car pulls up outside and a local woman walks briskly down the platform and into the station building. 'Alan, Alan wake up, the train's been waiting to come into the station'. An oldish man in BR uniform stumbles out of the ticket office, down to the box and clears the signal. The 27 and its two coaches angrily snarl forward into the platform and the driver alights to have words with Alan. My dad says that he got the impression that it wasn't the first time that it had happened...

 

[GrimShady]

Just returning to Fort William-Mallaig local trains, he says that at the time they were generally made up of, as well as a 27, a mk1 open second and an early mk2 corridor brake first. Even in high summer they weren't at all busy he says, what an appealing thought!
.

You can see this at the end of Great Railway Journeys - Michael Palin - Kyle of Lochalsh.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thanks for that. I never realised. Personally, and this is way off topic, I think they should start a program of lengthening the N Clyde platforms - the station boxes at QS and Charing Cross are quite a bit longer so that the steam engines were outside.

I expect the replacement for the Mk3 EMU fleet will have 23-24m carriages and so require lengthening works at major stations. Dalmuir looks easy enough to extend by 20m on the Singer lines.

 

[Essan]

A route planner from here (on the North Clyde Line) will almost always give Dalmuir as the place to change onto WHL

Aye, it (annoyingly) comes up on routes from down here (ie from Birmingham) too: as an alternative to walking from Central to QS. So I guess that's why it is on the schedule - to provide an option for those from the south who want a direct rail link.

Can't recall anyone ever getting on/off there though. And I reckon Dumbarton and Helensburgh Upper combined provide less customers for the WHL than Bridge of Orchy does.

Always been annoying that we get to stop at such places .....