Glasgow-Edinburgh: Pricing oddity for Off-Peak Single (1st Class) and Two Together Railcard

[kkong]

There seems to be something odd going on with the retailing of this ticket (Glasgow Central/Queen Street to Edinburgh, Off-Peak First Class Single).

it is valid on trains departing from 09:15 Mon-Fri (with some restrictions during the evening peak) and is route Any Permitted.

The undiscounted fare is £20.80.

The Two Together Railcard terms state that discounted First Class tickets may be purchased, travel is valid from 09:30 Mon-Fri and there is no minimum fare.

Selecting a train that the ticket and Railcard are both valid on (say the 11:45 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh on Monday 7th October) gives the following results.

ScotRail, Trainline

• 1 Adult (No Railcard): The Off-Peak ticket is offered (£20.80).
• 2 Adults (No Railcard): The Off-Peak tickets are offered (£41.60).
• 2 Adults (Two Together Railcard): The Off-Peak tickets are not offered; the Anytime Day Single (1st Class) is offered at £30.10 (a 33.4% discount from £45.20).
• 2 Adults (2 x Senior Railcards): The Off-Peak tickets are offered at £27.70 (a 33.4% discount from £41.60).

TrainSplit, LNER, TfW, GWR, Split My Fare, Uber

• 1 Adult (No Railcard): The Off-Peak ticket is not offered; the Anytime Day Single (1st Class) is offered at £22.60.
• 2 Adults (No Railcard): The Off-Peak tickets are not offered; the Anytime Day Single (1st Class) are offered at £45.20.
• 2 Adults (Two Together Railcard): The Off-Peak tickets are not offered; the Anytime Day Single (1st Class) are offered at £30.10 (a 33.4% discount from £45.20).

Does anyone have any idea what is causing this?

I've heard of some retailers (rightly or wrongly) not selling tickets that other retails do sell.

But I've never heard of a walk-up ticket type which two adults with a Two Together Railcard are prevented from purchasing, like ScotRail / Trainline are showing.

And I don't know why the retailers other than ScotRail and Trainline aren't offering this ticket for sale to anyone.

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone have any idea what is causing this?

I would wager that it is something to do with the way that the ticket has been set up in the industry data (which includes which discounts are applicable), and that Trainline are, as ever, using their own version of that data. I would suggest that you should complain to Scotrail.

 

[Watershed]

In their infinite wisdom, ScotRail have created their own ticket type, ORF, for this Off-Peak 1st Day Return (there is already an industry-standard code - FCR). I suspect they haven't set up the Railcard discounts properly for this, since in BR Fares it is not shown as discountable by a Two Together Railcard.

Trainline (which ScotRail's site is just a whitelabel version of) probably ignore the industry data, just as they do for fulfilment methods, and use their own logic which correctly determines that as a walk-up ticket it is discountable by the Two Together Railcard.

 

[kkong]

Trainline (which ScotRail's site is just a whitelabel version of) probably ignore the industry data, just as they do for fulfilment methods, and use their own logic which correctly determines that as a walk-up ticket it is discountable by the Two Together Railcard.

That's the thing, both ScotRail and Trainline don't offer the ticket with a Two Together Railcard, but they do offer it with a Senior Railcard!

 

[kieron]

In their infinite wisdom, ScotRail have created their own ticket type, ORF, for this Off-Peak 1st Day Return (there is already an industry-standard code - FCR). I suspect they haven't set up the Railcard discounts properly for this, since in BR Fares it is not shown as discountable by a Two Together Railcard.

FCR and ORF are two of the ticket codes used for this; FRX, FSO and OPF are others. Each forbids a different set of railcards, although ORF seems to be more of an outlier than any of the others with respect to "national" railcards.

Not allowing a 1st class ticket to be offered with a Priv discount certainly seems like a bold move.

That's the thing, both ScotRail and Trainline don't offer the ticket with a Two Together Railcard, but they do offer it with a Senior Railcard!

I think all you can do here is to buy the tickets from whoever charges the least for them. If that means using more than one retailer, so be it.

 

[Adam Williams]

And I don't know why the retailers other than ScotRail and Trainline aren't offering this ticket for sale to anyone.

RCS says that OSF can be sold by train operating companies:



but not by third party retailers - their customers are required to be overcharged instead and so they will be sold the FDS Anytime fare:



Trainline do not pay any attention to the data in RCS.

 

[kkong]

RCS says that OSF can be sold by train operating companies:

but not by third party retailers - their customers are required to be overcharged instead and so they will be sold the FDS Anytime fare:

Trainline do not pay any attention to the data in RCS.

Thanks for the insights.

So we have two inter-related problems here:

• TOCs can sell the tickets, but not with a Two Together Railcard discount.
• Third party retailers are not permitted to sell the tickets at all.

I raised the issue with ScotRail via WhatsApp, but the response was not the most insightful or indeed correct (my emphasis):

[12:24, 04/10/2024] Me: Hi, your website/app aren't offering Off-Peak Single (1st Class) tickets between Glasgow/Edinburgh when a Two Together Railcard is applied. They are offered when a Senior Railcard is applied and without any railcard at all! Could you please ask your retail team to investigate and enable the Two Together Railcard discount for this ticket type?

[12:32, 04/10/2024] ScotRail WhatsApp: Hi there, thanks I will look into this. Are you able to purchase at a booking office?

[12:33, 04/10/2024] Me: Thanks, I'm not travelling today, it is for travel later in the month.

[12:34, 04/10/2024] Me: I noticed that retailers other than ScotRail / Trainline (same people?) aren't offering this ticket for sale at all, so something is probably wrong with the underlying data.

[12:36, 04/10/2024] ScotRail WhatsApp: You can use your Two Together Railcard to get a discount on Advance tickets, Off-Peak tickets and Super Off-Peak tickets.

[12:38, 04/10/2024] Me: I know. It's an Off-Peak ticket that I asked about. But you can also use a Two Together Railcard to get discounts on Anytime tickets as well.

I assume I would also be unable to purchase these at a ticket office with a Two Together Railcard because it's the same underlying data?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2024 ==

I think all you can do here is to buy the tickets from whoever charges the least for them. If that means using more than one retailer, so be it.

The issue is that it doesn't seem possible to purchase the required ticket (OSF with Two Together Railcard) from any retailer.

 

[Adam Williams]

I raised the issue with ScotRail via WhatsApp

I don't think you'll get anywhere with frontline support, most TOCs do not equip their support staff with the required knowledge to understand a problem of this nature or ability to escalate support tickets that require a more complex resolution.

Your options are:

• Find a third-party retailer who is willing to email ScotRail's pricing manager for you
• Find a member of ticket office staff who is willing to raise the matter internally
• Contact RDG and ask them to raise the matter with the train operator. Members of the public can probably find and try to use the generic enquiries@ mailbox, though there's no guarantee it'll get picked up / the person on the other end will understand the nature of the problem because that mailbox is basically used as a catch-all for all sorts of queries

 

[kkong]

I don't think you'll get anywhere with frontline support, most TOCs do not equip their support staff with the required knowledge to understand a problem of this nature or ability to escalate support tickets that require a more complex resolution.

Sadly, I agree. Even though I prompted them to ask their retail team to investigate!

This situation isn't unique to the rail industry - the bus operators are particularly poor at listening and responding effectively to customer feedback.

So I suspect it will end up - as usual - with a frustrated customer and the corrections not being made.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I would wager that it is something to do with the way that the ticket has been set up in the industry data (which includes which discounts are applicable), and that Trainline are, as ever, using their own version of that data

Trainline (which ScotRail's site is just a whitelabel version of) probably ignore the industry data

There may be a bug, of course, but that aside Trainline uses all the industry data, the "as ever" only applies to RCS

 

[Adam Williams]

that aside Trainline uses all the industry data

Hmmm, I'm not convinced it always gets its availability from RARS

This can be painfully obvious sometimes when you click on the prices in the calendar search .. and then there's no sign in reality of the suggested price once it actually looks

 

[Haywain]

Hmmm, I'm not convinced it always gets its availability from RARS

This can be painfully obvious sometimes when you click on the prices in the calendar search .. and then there's no sign in reality of the suggested price once it actually looks

To be fair, I know that Trainline isn't alone in caching availability data for calendar displays.

 

[Adam Williams]

To be fair, I know that Trainline isn't alone in caching availability data for calendar displays.

Well, quite! I think everyone is left with no choice if they decide to try and play that game. RARS itself doesn't give you anything helpful. Trade-off between accuracy and usefulness then, though.

 

[philthetube]

can the required tickets be bought through a ticket office?

 

[kkong]

can the required tickets be bought through a ticket office?

I've not tried yet, but assuming their sales system uses the same underlying data, I suspect not?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't think you'll get anywhere with frontline support, most TOCs do not equip their support staff with the required knowledge to understand a problem of this nature or ability to escalate support tickets that require a more complex resolution.

Your options are:

• Find a third-party retailer who is willing to email ScotRail's pricing manager for you
• Find a member of ticket office staff who is willing to raise the matter internally
• Contact RDG and ask them to raise the matter with the train operator. Members of the public can probably find and try to use the generic enquiries@ mailbox, though there's no guarantee it'll get picked up / the person on the other end will understand the nature of the problem because that mailbox is basically used as a catch-all for all sorts of queries

There's also: Hope another TOC's Pricing Manager spots this thread and flags it up to ScotRail's Pricing Manager.

 

[Haywain]

There's also: Hope another TOC's Pricing Manager spots this thread and flags it up to ScotRail's Pricing Manager.

Or hope that someone who works for Scotrail sees this and passes it on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2024 ==

Your options are:

• Find a third-party retailer who is willing to email ScotRail's pricing manager for you

If only we knew of someone like that.

 

[kkong]

RCS says that OSF can be sold by train operating companies:

Just to follow up on this... it seems that it may only be Trainline-powered TOCs that are selling it.

TfW (SilverRail) and LNER (unsure who they use) aren't selling it, for example.

 

[Haywain]

TfW (SilverRail) and LNER (unsure who they use) aren't selling it, for example.

SilverRail provides the journey planner behind the LNER website.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just to follow up on this... it seems that it may only be Trainline-powered TOCs that are selling it.

TfW (SilverRail) and LNER (unsure who they use) aren't selling it, for example.

Curious!

Normally you do end up needing your own ticket whitelist on top of the data from RCS, so that might be the reason why they're not retailed, despite being available. Am only speculating though. Might be worth asking TfW or LNER directly.

Or hope that someone who works for Scotrail sees this and passes it on.

To be honest, this is what I was kinda hoping would happen so I could be lazy, I sent about five "please can you double check this product is configured as you intended in RCS if you have a minute" out on Friday

 

[kkong]

ScotRail, Trainline

• 2 Adults (Two Together Railcard): The Off-Peak tickets are not offered; the Anytime Day Single (1st Class) is offered at £30.10 (a 33.4% discount from £45.20).

This seems to have been fixed.

The Two Together railcard discount is now correctly applied and the Off-Peak Day Single (1st Class) OSF can be purchased (£27.70 for two people) from ScotRail and Trainline.

The Off-Peak Day Return (1st Class) ORF can also be purchased.

But it seems that you still can't buy these tickets from non-Trainline powered retailers.

 

[Adam Williams]

This seems to have been fixed.

The Two Together railcard discount is now correctly applied and the Off-Peak Day Single (1st Class) OSF can be purchased (£27.70 for two people) from ScotRail and Trainline.

The Off-Peak Day Return (1st Class) ORF can also be purchased.

But it seems that you still can't buy these tickets from non-Trainline powered retailers.

Still only retailable by TOCs in RCS