Glasgow Central and associated infrastructure: Upgrades needed for HSR

[Scotrail314209]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/edinburgh-waverley-station.123351/

I think work like this may need to take place at other stations where they need to modernize.

Edinburgh Waverley is a nice station, but the concourse can become very crowded due to the limited space there is around the main gateline at Platforms 12-17. More space is needed, particularly if passenger numbers will rise and if they run shiny new High Speed Trains into the station.

Wouldn't work similar to this need to take place at Glasgow Central etc eventually in order to make room for HS2? That station is situated on a bridge basically.

 

[Altnabreac]

I think work like this may need to take place at other stations where they need to modernize.

Edinburgh Waverley is a nice station, but the concourse can become very crowded due to the limited space there is around the main gateline at Platforms 12-17. More space is needed, particularly if passenger numbers will rise and if they run shiny new High Speed Trains into the station.

Wouldn't work similar to this need to take place at Glasgow Central etc eventually in order to make room for HS2? That station is situated on a bridge basically.

Off topic but at Central a mezzanine deck is never really going to work in the same way because the station is raised above street level rather than below street level like at Waverley.

The likely expansion for HSR is for the eastern platforms to be extended / rebuilt as 400m straightened platforms over the Clyde with a new entrance from Tradeston / Bridge St.

To get 400m straight platforms without oodles of demolition it's likely that platforms 1-4 would be removed north of Argyle St. This would vastly increase the concourse area. If doing that then logically you'd have a new entrance to this expanded concourse from the eastern end of the Hielanman's Umbrella. In fact the Glasgow City Centre District Regeneration Framework proposes pedestrianising the Umbrella so it can act as "a bright station lobby" so effectively the Umbrella would be doing the job of a Mezzanine.

I could also see an additional entrance at Broomielaw as well to increase that "Permeability" of the station.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Off topic but at Central a mezzanine deck is never really going to work in the same way because the station is raised above street level rather than below street level like at Waverley.

The likely expansion for HSR is for the eastern platforms to be extended / rebuilt as 400m straightened platforms over the Clyde with a new entrance from Tradeston / Bridge St.

To get 400m straight platforms without oodles of demolition it's likely that platforms 1-4 would be removed north of Argyle St. This would vastly increase the concourse area. If doing that then logically you'd have a new entrance to this expanded concourse from the eastern end of the Hielanman's Umbrella. In fact the Glasgow City Centre District Regeneration Framework proposes pedestrianising the Umbrella so it can act as "a bright station lobby" so effectively the Umbrella would be doing the job of a Mezzanine.

I could also see an additional entrance at Broomielaw as well to increase that "Permeability" of the station.

Looks like Central may be seeing quite a bit of work getting done to it. I wonder how platforms over the Clyde would look...

 

[gingertom]

Looks like Central may be seeing quite a bit of work getting done to it. I wonder how platforms over the Clyde would look...

They'd be made to look the part. Of more interest to me though is how an extra pair of tracks is going to thread their way out from these new platforms over the Clyde to beyond Motherwell- was there not some tentative plan to tunnel? If so where's the portals, and the descent looks as though it will have to be pretty steep.

if we could get the mods to split this off to a separate thread before we incur their wrath.

 

[Scotrail314209]

They'd be made to look the part. Of more interest to me though is how an extra pair of tracks is going to thread their way out from these new platforms over the Clyde to beyond Motherwell- was there not some tentative plan to tunnel? If so where's the portals, and the descent looks as though it will have to be pretty steep.

if we could get the mods to split this off to a separate thread before we incur their wrath.

Agreed. Good idea about the splitting, since there could be quite a lot to discuss about this.

 

[Altnabreac]

They'd be made to look the part. Of more interest to me though is how an extra pair of tracks is going to thread their way out from these new platforms over the Clyde to beyond Motherwell- was there not some tentative plan to tunnel? If so where's the portals, and the descent looks as though it will have to be pretty steep.

if we could get the mods to split this off to a separate thread before we incur their wrath.

If you can build 2 new tracks (with platforms) over the Clyde (reusing the existing derelict pillars east of the Clyde) then once you're on the south side of the river there's effectively already 2 dedicated tracks from Tradeston as far as Rutherglen and you don't need to branch off on a new line unit you get there.

A Lanarkshire HSR bypass line from Rutherglen to Carstairs is likely to be one of the projects being considered in the Strategic Transport Projects Review 2 (STPR2).

 

[Scotrail314209]

If you can build 2 new tracks (with platforms) over the Clyde (reusing the existing derelict pillars east of the Clyde) then once you're on the south side of the river there's effectively already 2 dedicated tracks from Tradeston as far as Rutherglen and you don't need to branch off on a new line unit you get there.

A Lanarkshire HSR bypass line from Rutherglen to Carstairs is likely to be one of the projects being considered in the Strategic Transport Projects Review 2 (STPR2).

Wouldnt that be difficult due to the terrain and towns around it. Particularly Motherwell and Cambuslang. I wonder how they will get around it.

 

[David Goddard]

Personally think they should CPO the St Enoch site and build a new station there

 

[Altnabreac]

Wouldnt that be difficult due to the terrain and towns around it. Particularly Motherwell and Cambuslang. I wonder how they will get around it.

Route would go to north and east of Motherwell along M74 / M73 / M8 corridor via Eurocentral:

Transport Scotland to study potential of high-speed trains connecting Lanarkshire to London in three hours

An artist's impression of HS2 A high-speed rail link between Glasgow and Carstairs, as well as the potential for a new interchange station at Eurocentral, are being considered as part of a feasibility study to be carried out by Transport Scotland.

www.scottishconstructionnow.com

 

[edwin_m]

If the HS platforms extend across the Clyde to a southern entrance but the other don't, then there's a risk that people will use them as a route to/from the new entrance. It would be difficult to restrict use of the new entrance to those taking HS services only, so the new layout probably needs an unpaid pedestrian walkway to the suggested southward extension of the existing concourse.

 

[Scotrail314209]

If the HS platforms extend across the Clyde to a southern entrance but the other don't, then there's a risk that people will use them as a route to/from the new entrance. It would be difficult to restrict use of the new entrance to those taking HS services only, so the new layout probably needs an unpaid pedestrian walkway to the suggested southward extension of the existing concourse.

I think something else they could do, is extend the concourse down to Bridge Street and link up with the Umbrella, with platforms on the other side. You could also do a subway connection at Bridge Street station.

 

[London Trains]

I think a new High Speed route from Abingdon following the M74 all the way into Glasgow would be viable.

A new High Speed station at Glasgow Central where Platforms 1-4 and the buildings between Union St/Jamaica St and the station are would work, with a new bridge over the Clyde between the current rail and A77 bridges.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think a new High Speed route from Abingdon following the M74 all the way into Glasgow would be viable.

A new High Speed station at Glasgow Central where Platforms 1-4 and the buildings between Union St/Jamaica St and the station are would work, with a new bridge over the Clyde between the current rail and A77 bridges.

The bridges are another issue, as well as getting clearence to knock those buildings down. They include nightclubs, casinos and a Wetherspoons. I think they should tread carefully as they don't want to risk causing public outcry by knocking down popular buildings. The other issue is the bridges. What would you do with the road bridge as the new platforms would be near enough on top of it.

 

[najaB]

The bridges are another issue, as well as getting clearence to knock those buildings down.

The font of a 400m long train could be under the front door of Queen Street while the back of the train was still under Glasgow Central. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The font of a 400m long train could be under the front door of Queen Street while the back of the train was still under Glasgow Central. Just throwing that out there.

Aren't the 400m trains going to be the combined length of a double HS2 unit? Wouldn't it only be single sets running to Glasgow, with possible provision for double sets?

 

[najaB]

Aren't the 400m trains going to be the combined length of a double HS2 unit? Wouldn't it only be single sets running to Glasgow, with possible provision for double sets?

Yeah, but you'd build the station for the longest expected trains. Even with a 200m train the walk from the Queen Street entrance would be shorter than it is now, and out of the elements.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Yeah, but you'd build the station for the longest expected trains. Even with a 200m train the walk from the Queen Street entrance would be shorter than it is now, and out of the elements.

It really does interest me with how they are going to go about this. Perhaps the redundant buildings and the regularly used tracks that pass the buildings could be lifted with the buildings demolished. They could reinstate the old sidings as running lines as they aren't used to stable stock anymore, would mean that they wouldn't lose tracks for the commuter services.

 

[mmh]

To get 400m straight platforms without oodles of demolition it's likely that platforms 1-4 would be removed north of Argyle St. This would vastly increase the concourse area. If doing that then logically you'd have a new entrance to this expanded concourse from the eastern end of the Hielanman's Umbrella. In fact the Glasgow City Centre District Regeneration Framework proposes pedestrianising the Umbrella so it can act as "a bright station lobby" so effectively the Umbrella would be doing the job of a Mezzanine.

That sounds like it would probably involve closing Grants, therefore it's a terrible idea!

 

[route101]

That sounds like it would probably involve closing Grants, therefore it's a terrible idea!

Is that a decent boozer?

Will be interesting to see what they do at Central , i take it still a long way from plans and details being formalised.

 

[Clansman]

Personally think they should CPO the St Enoch site and build a new station there

I agree with you there. Though I mind something came up in a document outlining why this wasn't a good idea - can't remember what it was.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I agree with you there. Though I mind something came up in a document outlining why this wasn't a good idea - can't remember what it was.

I'm assuming this is talking about the St Enoch's Centre?

 

[Clansman]

I'm assuming this is talking about the St Enoch's Centre?

The St Enoch centre is on it's way out. Much in line with the death of the high street, it is becoming ever obsolete as the days go on.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The St Enoch centre is on it's way out. Much in line with the death of the high street, it is becoming ever obsolete as the days go on.

I remember when the St Enoch's Centre had a childs softplay.... good times.

I think really everything should be moved onto Buchanan Street or into the Buchanan Galleries. To me the St Enoch Centre is too crowded and an absolute greenhouse in summer.

 

[edwin_m]

The St Enoch site isn't long enough for a 400m straight platform.

 

[Clansman]

The St Enoch site isn't long enough for a 400m straight platform.

That would've been it.

Out of curiosity, 400m would have been doable with curves. Is there a spec with HS2 that I'm missing that specifically states that platforms must be straight? Or is it related to the restrictions of using European gauge?

 

[Speed43125]

That would've been it.

Out of curiosity, 400m would have been doable with curves. Is there a spec with HS2 that I'm missing that specifically states that platforms must be straight? Or is it related to the restrictions of using European gauge?

I was under the impression all the new UK stations must have straight platforms, which presumably would apply to a new St.Enoch site. Unless I'm mistaken or it's since been changed.

 

[edwin_m]

I think a very gentle curve still allows stepping distances to be achieved. But at St Enoch the platform would have to extend onto the old triangular junction, so would be very tightly curved. This would also make it difficult to add many more platforms because of the problems designing a curved throat layout.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I always rather liked the suggestion here several years ago (maybe from Altnabreac) of a vast 400m underground station with integration at both Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street, and perhaps an additional surface entrance off George Square or Buchanan Street.

 

[92002]

Perhaps the HS2 station should be built on the South Side of the river and follow it till it meets the M74. Then follow it roughly South to the Carstairs area.

The M74 currently does not go near Carstairs. However if the alignment is to follow the M74 South it does not really necessarily need to meet at Carstairs. If it is intended to join trains from the Edinburgh direction or just a junction to there. It can be anywhere.

If more room is needed at Central Station for access they could reopen the entrance and subway entrances which were closed many years ago. There was an entrance not far from Grants on Argyle Street.

 

[mmh]

Is that a decent boozer?

Will be interesting to see what they do at Central , i take it still a long way from plans and details being formalised.

It's a very "traditional" pub. Spit and sawdust but without the spit and sawdust, if that makes any sense! Well worth a visit.

Strikes me that some of the suggestions in this thread are pretty far fetched. A high speed station at St Enoch makes no sense in a city where the most common complaint about trains is having distinct terminals for the north and south. Why would you want your improved service to England removed from every other service? 400 metre trains is also cloud cuckoo land - what problem would they be solving?