Given wrong ticket in error

[surreygirl]

I arrived at Gatwick at went up to the ticket office and asked the young woman for a ticket to Epsom station and also instructions on how to get there. I passed her over a 10 pound note and she printed off the instructions as well a giving me my ticket. When I got to Epsom station the ticket wouldnt go through the ticket barrier and a ticket collector took my ticket and gave it to a woman who was apparently a Transport Police who immediately told me that she was Police and that anything I said would be taken down and used as evidence in a court of law! I was completely taken aback as I did not know what she was talking about. She showed me a map and pointed to Coulsdon South I was still non plussed and she showed me the ticket which indeed had Coulsdon South on it! I tried to explain to her that I had purchased a ticket in good faith in the knowledge that it was the correct ticket for the journey and I was completely taken aback, she insisted that I pay a 20 pounds penanlty fee which I refused to do and told me I would be liable to pay 1000 pounds fee if I didnt. Bearing in mind the ticket had been looked at by two ticket collectors on the journey who had not said a thing.

I am to say the least absolutely flabbergasted and I utterly refused to pay the penalty fee of 20 pounds when the mistake was made by the young ticket clerk at Gatwick. I even had the instructions on me but she would not liston to my explaination at all. Needless to say I am furious to find myself in such a position.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Interesting. Obviously the onus is on the OP to check that they had been issued the correct ticket, but at a busy station like Gatwick Airport, I can understand if this might not be the case.

Wonder whether this is anything to do with the fact that the station code for Coulsdon South is 'CDS' which is the same abbreviation as "Cheap Day Single"?

So just maybe the coding got entered in the wrong place.

Coincidence, perhaps?

 

[northwichcat]

When you buy a ticket you are supposed to check it's for the right date and destination and that it's the right type of ticket- adult, child, railcard discounted or not. Most people do seem to check the destination but not the date.

Looking at the fares for Gatwick Airport to Epsom and Coulsdon South, depending on what time of day you travelled at the difference may have only been 20p in fare.

The fact that the ticket inspectors saw your ticket doesn't mean they looked at them properly.

Fare evasion is a criminal offence so if you're asked to give your name to a police officer then you have to, otherwise you face being arrested. You do not have to give your name to railway staff under any circumstances, although I have heard Northern and Merseyrail staff ask for names of passengers without tickets. Train staff also can't hold you at a station if you don't have a valid ticket until a police officer arrives, as that'd be false imprisonment. However, running away could make you look like a criminal when you're not.

The below link has information that you should find useful:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5772

I think if your printed intieriary has a time which is within a couple of minutes of the time the ticket was printed then you can use that to help you.

 

[First class]

No, I doubt the CDS code being same is the problem.

Unfortunately, you have no real defence as it is your responsibility to check that you've been issued the correct documentation for your journey.

A Penalty Fare does not require intent to avoid payment, it is a simple matter of fact. You either do have a valid ticket in which case you pass with no problems, or you don't and you're excessed or penalty fared.

Just like the people who run for their train before all their tickets have fully printed from a an automatic ticket machine - you do have the responsibility to check everything is in order.

I also think you've not done too badly because the way I interpret the rules regarding the Penalty Fare scheme is that you should have been charged twice the full open single fare or £20, (whichever is the higher). I see a Gatwick-Epsom ticket priced at £15.20 which I believe could have meant a £30.40 Penalty Fare being issued.

Everyone has made a mistake here, you for not checking, the retailer for also not checking and the RPI for possibly undercharging you for the PF...

Could always write to the appeals body but I don't think it will get far.

The above poster is incorrect in that a RPI can detain someone if they've committed an offence as follows:

'Until the offender can be brought before some reasonable justice or a constable can assume responsibility'.

Also under PACE and railway byelaws you DO and MUST give your name and address to any authorised person of the railway, basically any employee.

23. Name and address
(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
(2) The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:
“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

 

[yorkie]

Many railway companies treat customers like crap and assume the customer is guilty / wrong until proven otherwise. There's nothing any of us can do about it, unless some lawyers donate time to our cause or someone donates a load of money to pay for them. Open Access companies are an exception to this anti-customer policy.

The problem you'll get here is that no-one is going to believe that you didn't look at the ticket when you were given it, and that you handed it over to be checked and put it through barriers and yet still didn't look at it. To prove you didn't look at the ticket would be difficult to achieve in a court, I wouldn't risk it. It's not really true that a person is innocent until proven guilty, especially not in the case of railway tickets, as you won't be entitled to legal aid. They will argue that it is reasonable to assume that you would have checked the ticket, and they will argue that you are obliged to check it. You'd need a very good lawyer to dispute those claims. That will cost £thousands. If you lose the case and the prosecution wins a claim that you must have been acting dishonestly and with intent, then you could be given a criminal record.

I would just pay the £20 penalty fare and leave it at that, as refusing to pay the penalty fare is very risky and could be very costly.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Interesting that it was Coulsdon South because Coulsdon South is the first station inside the Travelcard area. I am not familliar with any TIS that requires the ticket type to be typed, it is usually only the destination that would be typed and there is quite a difference between CDS and EPS. It is quite common for people to buy a ticket to the edge of the zones and then use a travelcard to travel within the zones and then 'forget' to buy an extension to travel out the other side of the zones-and as if by coincidence in this instance Epsom is just one stop out of Zone 6.

I'm not one to cast aspersions on the OP's character but I am saying that it is a common fiddle.

 

[jon0844]

They would clearly know where the ticket was issued, when, and how you paid.

If you had asked for a ticket extension from another station, the staff would usually ask for your existing ticket to be shown. If you didn't have this ticket (like a Travelcard Z1-6 if you're asking for a boundary extension) then I guess they shouldn't have issued it - so your defence would be how could they issue an invalid ticket?

I would say pay the £20 then write in and appeal. It's one of those cases where, if you have no previous record, it will probably refunded as a goodwill gesture (and no admission of any mistake having been made).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One other thing. The OP mentions that instructions were printed off showing how to get from Gatwick Airport to Epsom. This sheet presumably will show a time and date when printed, as should the actual ticket. These two items when produced together might help support any appeal by the OP in asserting that the Gatwick Airport - Coulsdon South ticket was issued in error.

 

[surreygirl]

Well thats right. I asked for directions to Epsom and the best way and she printed off the instructions for me, but gave me inexplicably a ticket to Coulsdon South! The directions have the time and date etc on it. When she took the ticket off of the ticket collector at Epsom I didnt get a chance to see all the details on it. I am just wondering whether that was a scam now and whether the ticket collector who orignally looked at it and told me when I asked how long it would take to get to Epsom and he replied "two days" swopped the ticket or something I dont know what to think.

Thanks very much to Matt above. I have no idea what zones are in or out of paying areas and I certainly am not worried about trying to fiddle to save myself 50 pence or whatever the difference is.

 

[northwichcat]

I've just thought of another reason how it could have happened. Did the conductor take someone else's ticket at the same time as yours, such as the person sat next to you and then stamped them and returned them the wrong way around?

 

[yorkie]

Scams by RPIs do happen.

In 2005 an FGW RPI got off a train with our permit to travel at somewhere like Slough. As he got off, another FGW RPI got on, and went straight to us, and tried to penalty fare us as we had no PTT. Fortunately this was witnessed by a member of railway staff who helped us out by confirming to the replacement RPI that our story was correct. The replacement RPI then issued a fudged ticket, he only issued it for 1 person at a higher price despite there being more of us and being eligble for a discount. He didn't charge us more money, but I suspect he was on the fiddle. In hindsight, we should have reported it and complained but we were just wanting to get out of the situation. I think I'd be more assertive now. Some RPIs do do scams. Some do cheat. Some do lie. Some do act like criminals. Some do carry out assualts. And they get away with it because they know that when it's their word against yours, the courts will believe them. On the railways the passenger is often treated as being wrong, and guilty until they can prove otherwise.

If a skinhead BTP officer gets drunk, drinking 8 pints, and threatens a 16-year-old girl, and when it looks like the skinhead is going to attack her, her friends defend the girl by attacking the skinhead preventing him assaulting her, the BTP officer gets away with it and the people who defended the girl get locked up for up to 4 years. (Story here)

People who are in these positions of trust do not always behave honestly and honourably. The vast majority do, of course. But a small minority do not, and very little is done to stop them.

Always know your rights. Always have witnesses. Always ask for RPIs names if they are acting suspiciously.

surreygirl - the system is against you. Pay the PF and then appeal. If you can produce the printout and if it was issued at the same time as the ticket, you have a good case. Good luck, but you will find it difficult to prove your innocence. To make it worse, the fine that you recieved is legally claimed to be a "fare" not a fine, so they will claim that they are not suggesting you are guilty of anything. This makes it very difficult for you to appeal paying it as they will say you should have checked what was on the ticket. ]

Don't refuse to pay let it go to court, as your chances may not be good, they may not believe your story.