Ghost train ?

[Hoover]

Not literally, obviously, however :

I live very near the Nottingham - Sheffield line and every morning ( ex Sundays ) I am woken around 4am by a train going in the Sheffield direction. From the sound it's only a short train ( ? Sprinter ). At around 5am the same thing happens.

However, there are NO timetabled services at these times - any ideas, anyone ?

Cheers

H

 

[jopsuk]

Empty Coaching Stock movement perhaps?

 

[Bellwater]

ECS to Liverpool Lime Street i would have thought. they leave Nottm at 0350 and 0450 off the top of my head.

 

[Hoover]

ah, really ?

what an absolute waste of fuel !

and how boring for the crew

and how rubbish for my night's sleep !!!!!!

 

[royaloak]

ah, really

what an absolute waste of fuel !

Yes

and how boring for the crew

winding the unit up and leaving it, excellent fun

and how rubbish for my night's sleep !!!!!!

Dont live so close to a railway then , but seriously you will soon learn to ignore it.

 

[jopsuk]

Units need to go to depots for cleaning/fueling/minor maintanence. Units also need to be in position for the start of the day's passenger services. Simple...

 

[tbtc]

Must take a couple of hours to get from Nottingham to Liverpool (albeit not stopping at stations, and avoiding Sheffield) - seems quite a cost to the TOC, when they could use it in revenue earning service for at least part of the journey (even if just Manchester Picadilly - Liverpool Lime Street

 

[First class]

Must take a couple of hours to get from Nottingham to Liverpool (albeit not stopping at stations, and avoiding Sheffield) - seems quite a cost to the TOC, when they could use it in revenue earning service for at least part of the journey (even if just Manchester Picadilly - Liverpool Lime Street

Quite common to see EMT empty stock flying through Manchester towards Liverpool around 5am.

1hr between Nottingham and Manchester though? The ECS leaving at 4am must be going somewhere else, not towards Liverpool at that time anyway.

They must use the ECS runs to train for diversionary routes as they then go via Newton-le-Willows

 

[jon0844]

FCC has made what used to be a staff train a public service on the GN route, which means a very early service is now available - but I guess you can only do that once you know it will definitely run, on time, every time it is supposed to.

This is always an option, because even if it is barely used (but when I have taken it to get to the airport, it actually does pick up quite a lot of people) it would be running anyway.

 

[Mojo]

FCC has made what used to be a staff train a public service on the GN route, which means a very early service is now available - but I guess you can only do that once you know it will definitely run, on time, every time it is supposed to.

This is always an option, because even if it is barely used (but when I have taken it to get to the airport, it actually does pick up quite a lot of people) it would be running anyway.

Might be easier though for FCC who only operate DOO services whereas on other routes the trains also need a guard if they are going to run in passenger service (obviously if there is no agreement for ECS movements to run driver-only or if the guard travels pass on an ECS train then that doesn't apply).

 

[Failed Unit]

Units need to go to depots for cleaning/fueling/minor maintanence. Units also need to be in position for the start of the day's passenger services. Simple...

The joys of privatisation, under BR the said units would have been kept closer to Liverpool. The issue has ruined timetable all over the UK.

Example.
0552 Cleethorpes - Newark now runs ECS from Lincoln at about 0330. Under BR the unit would have been maintained at Cleethorpes. It would have worked to Cleethorpes the evening before at 2220 with passengers!

The 0700 Grimsby - Newark is also formed of an empty working from Lincoln (although it is in the timetable). Previously it use to be the 2115 service.

The last train of the evening from Lincoln to Grimsby is now 1954, but we have ECS running between the two towns because of the way the area is franchised!

I am sure there are many example of this around the UK!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

ah, really ?

what an absolute waste of fuel !

and how boring for the crew

and how rubbish for my night's sleep !!!!!!

not completely a waste of fuel at all, there are many reasons for ECS runs... i.e. running to/from depots at end/start of service mainly.
If anything I think I'd rather be driving ECS runs than in pax service.

 

[Failed Unit]

not completely a waste of fuel at all, there are many reasons for ECS runs... i.e. running to/from depots at end/start of service mainly.
If anything I think I'd rather be driving ECS runs than in pax service.

But it can be considered a waste of fuel, I know we are now privatised, but there are depots in the North West! I don't know the closest one to Liverpool that could do the stabling work needed, but surely it is better to go to Newton Heath rather than Nottingham. Just like my example, the depot at Cleethorpes can stable trains just as well as Lincoln so the ECS between them is a waste off fuel and also to the detriment of passengers. If the unit was based at Newton Heath in this case it may work inservice between Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[First class]

Northern use Virgin's Alstom stabling facilities at Edge Hill. On a Sunday, you can see upwards of 15-20 units sitting there in the sidings, usually 142 and 156.

They were talking about using the mothballed Allerton TMD, and indeed, I think it was even confirmed by Northern/PTE. However, nothing has been heard for a long time now. All the wagons/08s left Allerton and it is now pretty empty, although I think that had more to do with a young scallyway standing on top of a wagon and being electrified by the OHE juice.

Either way, apparently Network Rail don't want units being left overnight at Liverpool Lime Street any more, (Northern and possibly TPE leave upwards of 25 units there).

Would it not be better to create a new, small EMT depot somewhere in the North West for the Liverpool-Norwich runs with overnight stabling?

 

[Failed Unit]

Would it not be better to create a new, small EMT depot somewhere in the North West for the Liverpool-Norwich runs with overnight stabling?

Maybe a bit of an overkill, but they could certainly contract out the maintenance to another party. This happens all over the UK, East Coast for example have fuel and basic maintenance done on HST's at Aberdeen and Inverness and the sets are diagrammed that they are not away when heavy maintenance is done (if they get caught out you will get a set swap at Waverley as a result).

I guess EMT don't as it is probably cheaper to run ECS rather than contract out maintenance and fueling to a 3rd party.

Crazy.

 

[Bellwater]

Example.
0552 Cleethorpes - Newark now runs ECS from Lincoln at about 0330. Under BR the unit would have been maintained at Cleethorpes. It would have worked to Cleethorpes the evening before at 2220 with passengers!

The 0700 Grimsby - Newark is also formed of an empty working from Lincoln (although it is in the timetable). Previously it use to be the 2115 service.

The last train of the evening from Lincoln to Grimsby is now 1954, but we have ECS running between the two towns because of the way the area is franchised!

2 out of 3 right, Failed Unit... the 0703 runs in service as the 0557 Lincoln-Grimsby and the 1955 returns as the 2115 Cleethorpes-Nottingham(advertised as terminating at Lincoln but in reality continues to Nottingham).

In fact, there are few ECS moves in Lincolnshire, just the 0442 to Cleethorpes and the 0617 to Sleaford(which returns as the 0650 Sleaford to Leicester, which previously came ECS from Boston!)

the 2048 Lincoln-Boston used to run ECS Sleaford - Boston, now it runs in service.

 

[Failed Unit]

2 out of 3 right, Failed Unit... the 0703 runs in service as the 0557 Lincoln-Grimsby and the 1955 returns as the 2115 Cleethorpes-Nottingham(advertised as terminating at Lincoln but in reality continues to Nottingham).

Yes when I said about the 0557 running as an empty service but in the timetable I was refering to the number of passengers it has on board. If the unit stable at Cleethorpes like it did in BR days, it could run as say at about 2130 which would result in it having some passengers on it (heaven forbid!) Likewise having a service which stables at Cleethorpes at about 2230 (as under BR) carries a lot more passengers than the ECS.

In fact, there are few ECS moves in Lincolnshire, just the 0442 to Cleethorpes and the 0617 to Sleaford(which returns as the 0650 Sleaford to Leicester, which previously came ECS from Boston!)

That is one we are stuck with, unless when the joint line is complete the could start the 0650 back at Peterborough or run the 0617 to Peterborough in service and drop some coaches off at Sleaford on route.

the 2048 Lincoln-Boston used to run ECS Sleaford - Boston, now it runs in service.

There used to be under BR an ECS at 1503 from Lincoln - Grimsby - no gaurd which used to return at about 1620. I recall that really annoyed passengers as it left a 4 hour gap. Luckily it was fixed after one timetable!

 

[BlythPower]

Don't forget that if a TOC wants to leave a train somewhere 'foreign' overnight, there's not just stabling and cleaning/fuelling to consider. There's also the small matter of what to do with the train crew overnight. Throw in food, accomodation and various allowances and the ECS option looks cheaper still.